[Guardian] Legion Discussion

[CenariusTheForestLord]

Pulverize Vs Rend and Tear, what are peoples thoughts on this?

Pulverize is useless at 8%. It's been theorized to be useful at 12%.
It's a massive dps loss and a waste of a GCD compared to R&T.

- - - Updated - - -

I was thinking the same thing. I find pulverize more interesting though, one more button to press at least and if you have a group of adds with Thrash ticking away on you can actually tab target and spam the shit out of Pulverize which gives lots of nice numbers, not sure if thats more deeps than spamming swipe in between thrash/Mangle/GG procs though.

You don't have enough free GCD's with GG. Not with enough haste, and more than 2 targets.
You'll lose rage if you want to keep pulverize up at some point in AOE with GG.

[Audax]

I was thinking the same thing. I find pulverize more interesting though, one more button to press at least and if you have a group of adds with Thrash ticking away on you can actually tab target and spam the shit out of Pulverize which gives lots of nice numbers, not sure if thats more deeps than spamming swipe in between thrash/Mangle/GG procs though.

In addition to what Cenarius said, it is a DPS loss. Swipe = 180% damage per target, Pulverize = 420% damage so for sure it's a dps loss to Pulverize instead of Swipe for 3 targets and if you take into account the lost thrash stacks I'm pretty sure it will be a dps loss on two targets as well. (And that's if you already have Pulverize as your talent choice, so not taking into account the extra damage you could get from talenting into Rend and Tear).

[The Inevitable]

Keep in mind that there are trade-offs to both talents. Rend and Tear will only reduce your damage from enemies that have your Thrash ticking on them. So fire walls or fire on the ground, damage from non-targetable sources, enemies who are more than 8 yards away, etc. will deal 8% more damage to you if you pick Rend and Tear over Pulverize. In addition, it takes 12-18 seconds to get the full benefit of Rend and Tear, which makes it less useful for short-lived adds.

[Kujako]

Keep in mind that there are trade-offs to both talents. Rend and Tear will only reduce your damage from enemies that have your Thrash ticking on them. So fire walls or fire on the ground, damage from non-targetable sources, enemies who are more than 8 yards away, etc. will deal 8% more damage to you if you pick Rend and Tear over Pulverize. In addition, it takes 16-24 seconds to get the full benefit of Rend and Tear, which makes it less useful for short-lived adds.

Huh? If you can't get Thrash on the targets, Pulverize does nothing. It needs to consume two stacks to be effective. The only time you can really say that Pulverize pulls ahead is if the fights last less then 15 seconds so you only have time to get two stacks going.

[Dreyen]

6% DR is so minor it doesnt matter if it stacks slowly or fast TBH. Rend and tear all the way, it's a massive dps increase compared to pulverize... 2%DR is not worth the dps sacrifice and won't save your life.

[Lysozyme]

To those saying "you might as well play a dps" rather than play 'bearcat' rotation, that's just silly. When you don't have to tank during a fight, you can 'bearcat'; when you have to tank you stay in bear form. You then raise your DPS for the periods of not tanking, but are still capable of tanking when necessary.

[Deleted]

Anyone got some nice WA setups they'd like to share? Lost the ones i had in WoD :/

[Bytch]

So, a question. With Rend and Tear, the tool tip says 2% per stack of Thrash. But does that also include our damage to them? Meaning will it be 2 x 3 stacks of + damage( 6% more damage to them) or is it just we take less damage?

- - - Updated - - -

So, a question. With Rend and Tear, the tool tip says 2% per stack of Thrash. But does that also include our damage to them? Meaning will it be 2 x 3 stacks of + damage( 6% more damage to them) or is it just we take less damage?

Also, wouldn;t Lunar Beam be more damage and better damage mitigation via the heal?

[Promdates]

Are you guys using a macro to shift from bear to cat and then back to bear, or just a keybind on each bar that shifts you back to the other one?

[Braindwen]

Huh? If you can't get Thrash on the targets, Pulverize does nothing. It needs to consume two stacks to be effective. The only time you can really say that Pulverize pulls ahead is if the fights last less then 15 seconds so you only have time to get two stacks going.

You know you can pulverize other targets, and it'll still affect everything, right? Pulverize has a clear survival benefit over R&T, especially on freshly spawned adds, environmental damage effects, and anything else where you can't have thrash stacked. There could very well be cases where this benefit is worth the "massive" ~3-4% DPS loss of taking pulverize. (Unless, of course, you run the legendary that lets thrash stack to 5, then it's definitely R&T all the way)

This reminds me of all the hate WoD pulverize got for being a <1% DPS loss on single-target. More reasonable, sure, but I feel like any DPS loss from using pulverize at all is classified as "massive".

Also, wouldn;t Lunar Beam be more damage and better damage mitigation via the heal?

R&T stacks both its +damage and -damage taken, so 3 stacks of thrash on a target is +6% damage done and -6% damage taken.

Lunar Beam is pretty much an AoE damage CD right now. Weakest ST damage, and while the heal vs. %DR depends on how much damage you're taking, I strongly doubt lunar beam will win on harder content.

Are you guys using a macro to shift from bear to cat and then back to bear, or just a keybind on each bar that shifts you back to the other one?

What I'm using right now is:

#showtooltip
/cast [stance:1, talent:3/1] Moonkin Form; [stance:1, talent:3/2] Cat Form; !Bear Form

Shifts from bear form to Moonkin if balance affinity, from bear to cat if feral affinity, powershifts from bear to bear if resto affinity, and shifts from any other form to bear.

[Jurman]

R&T + Legendary chest will be awesome and better than Pulverize and Lunar for sure.
Hope it will drop before mythic progress

[Rucktoe]

R&T Legendary chest[/url] will be awesome and better than Pulverize and Lunar for sure.
Hope it will drop before mythic progress

That is the legs, but speaking of legendaries, which one should we be aiming for since we can only wear one piece at the start?

I like the looks of the chest giving 50% more to thick hide and the other affinity we choose, but this thrash leg piece looks good as well.

The feet also look good since they have versatility and a 15% max health heal.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

R&T + Legendary chest will be awesome and better than Pulverize and Lunar for sure.
Hope it will drop before mythic progress

Is it confirmed to go up to 10%? Because I highly doubt it'll go past 6 even if you have 5 stacks.

- - - Updated - - -

That is the legs, but speaking of legendaries, which one should we be aiming for since we can only wear one piece at the start?

I like the looks of the chest giving 50% more to thick hide and the other affinity we choose, but this thrash leg piece looks good as well.

The feet also look good since they have versatility and a 15% max health heal.

Feet that give you FR increase fo sho

[Unknownuser]

I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered yet I went back a few pages and couldn't find anything, what is going to be the "optimal" path for the first traits of the artifact?

[Nevcairiel]

I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered yet I went back a few pages and couldn't find anything, what is going to be the "optimal" path for the first traits of the artifact?

There is a general consensus about going Gory Fur first (direct path) and getting Bear Hug as a side-trait - thats then artifact level 12.

After that, some people prefer going Embrace of the Nightmare on the short path, some on the long path because of better traits on the way, or go to Adaptive Fur because the traits on the way are pretty good (even though Adaptive Fur itself isn't that great)

Personally, I'll either go Embrace on the long path (ie. over Perpetual Spring and Bloody Paws), or get Adaptive Fur first. The short bottom path to Embrace is full of silly traits.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered yet I went back a few pages and couldn't find anything, what is going to be the "optimal" path for the first traits of the artifact?

There's some division on this topic, but most people would agree you go to the left for Gory Fur first.
Then you take bear hug. And then the weirdness begins.
To the right (towards adaptive fur) are some really good minor traits. But adaptive fur is rather weak.
To the top you have embrace which is awesome, but the traits on the way are bad.

I'm probably going for Gory fur -> Bear Hug -> Embrace (through the left path) -> Adaptive fur.
But the safe route is probably Gory Fur -> Bear Hug -> Adaptive Fur -> Embrace (from the right).

[Grum88]

I just really hope Maul gets something...anything to make it worth using. Even now it doesn't even seem worth using as a rage dump. Swipe can be spammed for nothing for 3x the damage..

[Nevcairiel]

I just really hope Maul gets something...anything to make it worth using. Even now it doesn't even seem worth using as a rage dump. Swipe can be spammed for nothing for 3x the damage..

Its a minor DPS increase because its off the GCD, but anytime you are taking damage the rage is better spent in Iron Fur, always.
So only way its somewhat useful is when not tanking in a phase of a fight.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

I just really hope Maul gets something...anything to make it worth using. Even now it doesn't even seem worth using as a rage dump. Swipe can be spammed for nothing for 3x the damage..

It's off the GCD. ANy damage it does is extra damage.

[Unknownuser]

There's some division on this topic, but most people would agree you go to the left for Gory Fur first.
Then you take bear hug. And then the weirdness begins.
To the right (towards adaptive fur) are some really good minor traits. But adaptive fur is rather weak.
To the top you have embrace which is awesome, but the traits on the way are bad.

I'm probably going for Gory fur -> Bear Hug -> Embrace (through the left path) -> Adaptive fur.
But the safe route is probably Gory Fur -> Bear Hug -> Adaptive Fur -> Embrace (from the right).

Awesome thanks alot!