[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Marrilaife]

Take a step back and consider that your being denied by guilds who kill things long after comp is a concern might have less to do with the class you play, and more to do with you not being able to play it.

I guess being declined 1 time too many makes a person bitter and angry.

But since the first guild he mentioned had a prot pala they can't be completely unviable?

[Deleted]

Idk, fam, i clearly posted on that video that the guy doing it is an assclown, however i think that you yourself is an assclown, so i'm kind of split.

I think they can both be assclowns without any conflict!

[Blizzhoof]

Viability wise, Protadins seem fine to me, but I just don't find it fun anymore. Having a GC proc used to feel good because it contributed greatly to both damage and survivability, but now it just feels like "Oh, I'll get to that after I refresh consecrate and cast another blessed hammer." FeelsBadMan

Edit: What do you guys find fun about the new protection paladin?

Edit2: I should expand quite a bit more on this. I hate the charge system and greatly prefer having a resource to manage. I know that in practice, they are very similar when playing optimally, but that's kind of my point. Managing a resource requires you to play well to optimize it, while charges ignore your ability to play the class outside of not capping them (which takes no thought at all). Going from managing Holy Power to just "Keep down consecrate" is a giant step down in terms of engaging gameplay.

Funny how we're the only tank that doesn't have a resource. It could just be that they wanted Protection Paladins to be the tank for beginners. If so, that is very disappointing.

[Deleted]

Loving the drama =) Worth a good read before going to bed. Remember that you're entitled to your opinion, just don't inflict it on everyone else. If you disagree about Paladin being viable then that is fine. But people do not need it shoving down their throats.

[Blizzhoof]

I'm speaking purely in survivability terms, Mr. DPS. Now that I think about it, I'll bet you LOVE this new protection paladin that plays just like a dps with DR cds. Just not what I enjoy personally.

[Deleted]

I'm speaking purely in survivability terms, Mr. DPS. Now that I think about it, I'll bet you LOVE this new protection paladin that plays just like a dps with DR cds. Just not what I enjoy personally.

Prot Paladin has been "a DPS with DR cooldowns" for a long time. This isn't a new development.

[Blizzhoof]

Prot Paladin has been "a DPS with DR cooldowns" for a long time. This isn't a new development.

I greatly disagree. Definitely felt a lot more like a tank in WoD.

Btw, I read my post and realized that it might sound like an insult to Lazel. It isn't. He's always been amazing at maximizing protadin dps. Hence, "Mr. DPS"

[celinamuna]

I greatly disagree. Definitely felt a lot more like a tank in WoD.

Btw, I read my post and realized that it might sound like an insult to Lazel. It isn't. He's always been amazing at maximizing protadin dps. Hence, "Mr. DPS"

What changed ?

Only real difference is that sera is now more punishing.

[Pu3Ho]

A simple ban would fix this trolling problem. I guess "constructive criticism" isn't a part of this individual's conversation base. Basic grammar doesn't appear to be his strong suit either, just saying.

Hamsters triggered by truth - where else i have seen that??

[celinamuna]

Hamsters triggered by truth - where else i have seen that??

in your parents bedroom

[Adaren]

Speaking of maxing Prot DPS...

A few pages back, I posted the idea of banking BH charges to use right after AS, where the DPS value of a GC proc is highest. Would there be some value in doing that?

Basically, only use BH if:
1. You're at >2 BH charges.
2. AS CD is >9 seconds.

[Deleted]

Im currently lvling a druid to be prepared. The gameplay is much better, because of its mobility. The loss of moving consecration and a real AOE dmg is gamebreaking for me.

Another problem is the greatly reduced selfheal. While in party it only stresses the heal more, its really bad for soloing stuff. Another point where bear wins, since their legendary feet grant him 20% reg of max life + 50% of lost life in the last 5 sec.

Besides druid being the most flexible, most loved class in wow anyways. Instant mounting, waterform and so on

[celinamuna]

Speaking of maxing Prot DPS...

A few pages back, I posted the idea of banking BH charges to use right after AS, where the DPS value of a GC proc is highest. Would there be some value in doing that?

Basically, only use BH if:
1. You're at >2 BH charges.
2. AS CD is >9 seconds.

I mean atm with BH we have empty globals, so you don't need to think too much about banking BH, if you do go for dps, and get GC procs.

[Wrathblood]

So, I've been out of WoW for quite a while but I'm starting to get myself back up to speed in anticipation of playing in Legion and I haven't played in beta at all. Atm I'm fiddling with talents and rotation and its really aggravating. Barring taking Consecrated Hammer, I can't seem to find a rotation that'll fill more than ~80% of my GCDs and that's going with a rotation that prioritizes Hammer. If I prioritize J like it seems like I'm supposed to, its even worse and my C uptime drops as well.

Is there some artifact or level 110 ability I'm missing?

[Adaren]

I mean atm with BH we have empty globals, so you don't need to think too much about banking BH, if you do go for dps, and get GC procs.

Having empty globals would be an argument for banking charges, I would think.

Basically, getting a GC proc with 3 seconds left on AS kind of sucks. Getting a GC proc with 14 seconds left on AS is awesome. Since BH has 3 charges, we can save up charges to spam right after using AS in order to maximize our chances of getting a big reset.

Of course, the DPS gain is probably quite small, and there's the possibility that the benefits would be mitigated by CD clashing with Judgment / Consecration. But I do expect that it is a DPS gain of some magnitude and would be interested if someone with access to Legion Simcraft felt like testing it out!

[Deleted]

We know how things are from doing testing Dion, bosses will be 3 shotting us, 2 shotting without sotr.

That is good to know. Do you happen to know anything about state of healing? How is mana regen and how effective healing is compared to now? I have heard reports about running OOM while healing and other stating that OOM:ing isn't happening.

You also have to bare in mind, getting the max amount of healing from lotp is borderline irrelevant, getting the best chance for survival is what matters, the two are very rarely the same thing.

I disagree with irrelevant as I view even small health gain beneficial as there is no tradeoff other than push a button.

Best chance of survival is what I'm after. You see, I view that getting more casts at that during heavy damage phase is good tactic. Many of logs I have seen have been single or two (with 30sec long delay between them) Lotp casts during heavy damage phases, followed by Lay on Hands around 7-10sec later. I find it extremely difficult to believe that it would not have been beneficial to cast one more extra Lotp between those two, especially during heavy damage phase.

I need some very through and serious explaining to believe that having less healing/health during high damage phase, that is likely to kill you, even as tank healers are strugling to keep you alive due heavy damage, is beneficial and increases chances of survival.

Haven't read icy-veins guide, i wrote the wowhead guide which says :
"you don't want to use them as soon as you're taking damage. At the same time you don't want to try to game it too much for maximum hps, so I would suggest not using it until ~40% unless you know that you are about to take a big hit, and already on low health. At the same time if you know that you will survive the large hit, and won't be instantly in danger of dying from AA, you might choose to wait until right after to heal up."

I'm not sure how to better describe it without going for "use the force to feel when to use it", so i was trying my best to explain that you don't want to use it as soon as it's off the cd, but do you do want to use it when you start to dip low.

I didn't know you wrote it, intresting. So, now I have few more issues to talk about...*classic cartoonic unfolding paper that just keeps unfolding and unfolding*

Depends what is your view of optimal use. I understand that it's difficult to explain how to properly plan/use Lotp as it's complex issue, but now it's vague explanation. More experienced players quickly pick up what you mean, but less experienced might get confused.

I would probably add there one point, which would be that you want to make multiple casts during prolonged heavy damage phase. I would probably add some concrete examples of good use, to emphasise your points.

My version would probably be something like this: During long perioid of heavy damage, cast on cooldown. Short period, where you can get only single cast, cast Lotp at low healt but don't die. Two casts at 80% and 50% is better than one cast on 40%.

Sidenote:Guide stating that ability usage requires knowledge of the Force would be awesome!

[celinamuna]

Having empty globals would be an argument for banking charges, I would think.

Basically, getting a GC proc with 3 seconds left on AS kind of sucks. Getting a GC proc with 14 seconds left on AS is awesome. Since BH has 3 charges, we can save up charges to spam right after using AS in order to maximize our chances of getting a big reset.

Of course, the DPS gain is probably quite small, and there's the possibility that the benefits would be mitigated by CD clashing with Judgment / Consecration. But I do expect that it is a DPS gain of some magnitude and would be interested if someone with access to Legion Simcraft felt like testing it out!

Yea, that's what i mean.
If you're going for max dps, you can safely use GC over BH, as it's not pushing anything else out of rotation.

I didn't know you wrote it, intresting. So, now I have few more issues to talk about...*classic cartoonic unfolding paper that just keeps unfolding and unfolding*

Depends what is your view of optimal use. I understand that it's difficult to explain how to properly plan/use Lotp as it's complex issue, but now it's vague explanation. More experienced players quickly pick up what you mean, but less experienced might get confused.

I would probably add there one point, which would be that you want to make multiple casts during prolonged heavy damage phase. I would probably add some concrete examples of good use, to emphasise your points.

My version would probably be something like this: During long perioid of heavy damage, cast on cooldown. Short period, where you can get only single cast, cast Lotp at low healt but don't die. Two casts at 80% and 50% is better than one cast on 40%.

Sidenote:Guide stating that ability usage requires knowledge of the Force would be awesome!

I mean, I can, but there's also something to remember. Most people reading guides be it on wowhead/icy-veins/mmo-c/official forums/etc are generally not mythic raiders. In terms of total hps yes, 2 casts at 80 and 50 is better than one cast at 40%. But which of those are more likely to prevent you from dying ? If i give too complicated explanation for some of those things people are more likely to get even more confused and mess something up. So while I can raise the HP "guideline" I don't want it to be too complicated on people learning specs.

[Deleted]

My version would probably be something like this: During long perioid of heavy damage, cast on cooldown. Short period, where you can get only single cast, cast Lotp at low healt but don't die. Two casts at 80% and 50% is better than one cast on 40%.

Personally I'd never cast LotP at 80% hp during a high dmg phase, the initial heal will probably just push 1 tick of a healer's HoT into overheal, and our HoT from Light of the Titans is pretty weak.

If it's really a high dmg phase of the fight I'm fairly sure waiting 5 sec would allow us to cast LotP at sub 60% at the very least, if we're not dropping below 50% every 5-10 sec I wouldn't really call it a high dmg phase.

Ofc if there's a big hit coming and I know I need to be close to max hp to survive it I'll cast LotP even if i'm at 80%.

I see what your getting at with wanting to use cd's more often but LotP heals for more when used at low hp plus healing a few times in a fight when you really need it is much better for max survival than trying to use the heal on cd, then not having it 10 sec later when you're at 30% hp.


I guess there is an argument for using it on cd if the healers are running oom but even the I'd argue that more intelligent usage would save the healers more mana as they won't need to panic heal you as often from low hp.

[kirielle]

I would argue that this entire discussion is moot if you take HotP and Righteous Protector, which are currently the default picks for progression. I mean carry on by all means, but it hardly makes a difference when HotP is available every ~5 seconds to press.

[Vergilius]

Does Hand of the Protector get the +20% heal boost from Cons? I'm assuming it does but it doesn't say so in the tooltip.