Alliance satisfied yet

[Florena]

Yeah at some point races with shared history have a distinction in their lore, or else all elf lore us also troll lore by extension. And all human lore is vrykul lore.

[Fayolynn]

No, they're not.
Blood elf lore pretty much starts when Dath'Remar and other highborne are exiled and go to the Eastern Kingdoms.
By that time, Suramar had been isolated for two thousand years or so, and before that, everything was about NIGHT elves.
True, the Nightborne have some similarities to the blood elves, like their addiction to magic and some cultural aspects, but that doesn't make them blood elf lore.
They look like night elves, they're called NIGHTborne, they are still nocturnal, their buildings are full of decorative moons (I'm not sure if they worship Elune though) and look more night elven than blood elven, and their whole lore is centered on the War of the Ancients.

What a random distinction to draw. Why does nothing before the highborne exile count?

Anything related to their peoples history is their lore which means where they came from.

Blood Elves came from the High Elves who were exiled Highborne. The Nightborne are descendants of the Highborne elves as well. They all have a share history. Dath'Remar was exiled following the War of the Ancients so any lore about the War of the Ancients is relevant to the Blood Elf people.

Your line of thinking is like saying that anything that happened in Austria in 1500 doesn't count as my families history because my family history started in the 1800's when they immigrated to North America.

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Yeah at some point races with shared history have a distinction in their lore, or else all elf lore us also troll lore by extension. And all human lore is vrykul lore.

Its fairly easy to tell who lore belongs to, when did the event take place. If something happened after two races split they don't share the lore. If it was before the split they do.

[Deleted]

I get that the Alliance had more in the past and this was being done to even things out. I'm just saying from a lore standpoint it didn't NEED to be evened out. It could have remained as unbalanced. It was done for gameplay reasons which was then tied into the lore.



It has nothing to do with me personally liking or not liking the story, its how they handled the story itself. Why did every zone that shifted from the Alliance to Horde have to be the Horde destroying the Alliance? Why did the majority of the Alliance zones not even relate to the war? Of the two victories for the Alliance during the war why did the players have to round up criminals for one (Camp T) and why did completing the quest chain revert the victory for the other (Duskwallow)?



I don't remember them ever stating they ran out of time for the Horde content during the expansion. They have admitted they were focused on the Horde content and ran out of time for the Alliance content. Hence a fade to black vs a cinematic and an entire quest hub where the red dragon flight is pissed at the Alliance players for no reason (They are pissed at the Horde players for working with the Dragonmaw, the Alliance got a copy paste) Going past Cata they have admitted they write lore for the horde first because they find them more interesting to write for. If anything that means they should be putting more effort into making the Alliance more interesting, not putting their initial effort into the Horde.



My mistake, that's what I get for replying to multiple people at once. :-D



I would count 6.0 since the Iron Horde was Garrosh's doing and 4.0 since the majority of the story revolved around a War Garrosh started. I guess it just feels like so much more because SoO was around for ever.

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The Nightborne are as much Blood Elf lore as Night Elf.

Garrosh and Iron horde have nothing to do with MU Horde, which the topic is about. Just saying

[Fayolynn]

Garrosh and Iron horde have nothing to do with MU Horde, which the topic is about. Just saying

Debatable since the Iron Horde was led by the MU Horde historical figures.

[Ragetacular]

I forgot how god awful MMO champ mods are. Infracted for commenting on the mountains of salt in this thread.

People will never see this game as more than red vs blue and to that point it will never grow.

[ryudaraku]

And since he was the ruler of the Horde it was a story about the Horde and its inner politics.

Really?

Inner politics would have been.

Vol'jin Gathering the Blood Elves into the rebellion, Vol'jin Convincing Sylvanas to join, Vol'jin trying to win over Nazgrim. Hell even the leader short stories where about Garrosh or his actions. in some fashion or another minus Gallywix. The only thing that didn't involve the Moron who betrayed everything the WC3 Horde was built upon was Vol'jin's book.

[ravenmoon]

I'd argue that even MoP wasn't that Alliance-centric either. It was definitely more even than Cata, but Ally lore wasn't written that much better, to the extent that Horde lore was in Cata... Basically all we had was Dalaran, and the subsequent questing with Jaina and Vereesa and the rest of the Kirin-Tor Offensive at Island of Thunder. We had some great character development with Anduin, but we had a horrible one with Tyrande and the whole Patience scenario as well.

In fact, the whole High King route they took with Varian was uncalled for and it just proves that they don't know how to handle the Alliance. We're different from the Horde because all of our races are independent and they don't need to bow down to a centralized figure of power like a Warchief or a High King. We're bound by principle and not strength nor convenience. It is easier, however, to focus on one character instead of 7 completely different races with completely different cultures and power structure. There was no need to make Varian High King, he's King of Stormwind and that was enough.

I couldn't agree more with Disreali. Every time they try to give some attention to the Alliance, they just make it clear that they don't really understand what draws players to it in the first place. It shows that the Devs either understand the Horde much better, or care more about it, because its story is often written much better. I'll admit that it is much easier to please Horde players, give them some badass combat in war and they're pretty much pleased. The fault we have as Alliance players is that we expect our lore to be different, to have badass combat for sure, but to have all of our races to contribute to the faction on their own unique way... We expect our heroes to remain loyal, and not to become neutral (Tirion, Khadgar, Magni it seems and I'll bet Turalyon and Alleria will be neutral as well). I really don't believe devs allienate the Alliance on purpose, they do it because the Horde is much more interesting to them while the Alliance, to them, is just some Tolkianesque fantasy cliché in the way.

wow, I find myself agreeing with this alot. I do think the cdev team enjoys writing horde more because they were challenged to make it more interesting and raise it's profile, so the story pretty much from TBC to WoD has been horde centric. Legion is the first expansion ever that is not horde centric imo. I think worry about horde numbers drove that massive story focus and i believe it wasn't healthy because there was a lot of good and strong themes in the alliance that were left untouched, night elves being one of the biggest ones - or have you not noticed this is the first time in wow they've actually got a major focus.

I also think is that they looked down on a Tolkeinesque fantasy cliche - which is really obnoxious because it is an incredible peace of work - anyone who finds tolkein high elves boring, docile and unimaginative I don't think have really appreciated what's been written and seems to be thinking instead of all the bad derivative works the clichés have developed over - like D&D high elves and a lot of "inspired" fantasy work from tolkein that don't even come close to matching it's scope, vision, detail and integrity, not even close, but in fact dominate the fantasy scene.. Shame.

[Baine]

It was a hunting camp.
Baine is an idiot

No I am not.

[ravenmoon]

p.s. to the OP, get over it, it may focus on an alliance races predominantly for a change, but it's the night elves here - and it's presented in a very even way, as it's onthing to do with factions but about this main enemy.
You would notice, the alliance and horde lose and gain the same, but if you look closely, night elves may be focused on, but they're been raped left right and centre and dying a lot, whether it's nightborne, or wardens, highborne or ghosts, Moonguard or Dreamers, druids or priests, - they're bee slaughtered - when have you seen night elves presented in wow without been slaughtered a lot? is it their attention you're bregrudging?

[Friendlyimmolation]

I also think is that they looked down on a Tolkeinesque fantasy cliche - which is really obnoxious because it is an incredible peace of work - anyone who finds tolkein high elves boring, docile and unimaginative I don't think have really appreciated what's been written and seems to be thinking instead of all the bad derivative works the clichés have developed over - like D&D high elves and a lot of "inspired" fantasy work from tolkein that don't even come close to matching it's scope, vision, detail and integrity, not even close, but in fact dominate the fantasy scene.. Shame.

High elves arent looked down on because they are toilken elves, they are looked down on for being poor imitations of toilken elves. The Dollar store knock off of Quendi. The poor capture of the greater theme the Elves of Lord of the Rings is a favorite for many role players because it requires little to no imagination to come up with a "good " elf character.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Garrosh and Iron horde have nothing to do with MU Horde, which the topic is about. Just saying

Weird, Horde fans are always complaining about killing their own "heroes" in WoD... which is it?

[Fayolynn]

Weird, Horde fans are always complaining about killing their own "heroes" in WoD... which is it?

Whichever is most convenient for the argument at hand.

[nnelson54]

Alliance heroes though? Tirion's whole plot in Vanilla was that he wanted to re-establish the Knights of the Silver Hand, then an Alliance Paladin order. Ok, cool. Only he then merges it with the neutral Argent Dawn, and now the new Argent Crusade is neutral. The iconic Alliance Paladin order just got neutral'd over the course of the DK starting experience.

Tirion was never an Alliance hero at any point that the player knew him. He was created as a neutral character, and always stayed that way. Hell, his entire backstory is that he was exiled from Alliance lands for being too good of a person.

Also, his story arc in Vanilla was not to re-establish the Knights of the Silver Hand. His story arc in Vanilla was to save his son from the Scarlet Crusade's influence. When his son was killed he vowed to re-create the order to wipe out evil in Lordaeron, which he did. The ENTIRE POINT of his character was to be a neutral character who - due to his encounter with Etrigg - knew that race does not dictate whether you are good or evil and he would take any ally so long as they were honorable.

Plus, the Knights of the Silver Hand had never went away. The Paladins of Stormwind and Ironforge had always been Knights of the Silver Hand. But with the destruction of Lordaeron by the Scourge, there were no Paladins on Lordaeron to fight the Scourge. Which is what Tirion created a new order on Lordaeron to do. Knights of the Silver Hand still exist as the in game group of Human and Dwarf Paladins.

[Perkunas]

Shouldn't have killed Vol'jin. Sylvanas needs to die before I'll be happy.

[Ragetacular]

Tirion was never an Alliance hero at any point that the player knew him. He was created as a neutral character, and always stayed that way. Hell, his entire backstory is that he was exiled from Alliance lands for being too good of a person.

Also, his story arc in Vanilla was not to re-establish the Knights of the Silver Hand. His story arc in Vanilla was to save his son from the Scarlet Crusade's influence. When his son was killed he vowed to re-create the order to wipe out evil in Lordaeron, which he did. The ENTIRE POINT of his character was to be a neutral character who - due to his encounter with Etrigg - knew that race does not dictate whether you are good or evil and he would take any ally so long as they were honorable.

Plus, the Knights of the Silver Hand had never went away. The Paladins of Stormwind and Ironforge had always been Knights of the Silver Hand. But with the destruction of Lordaeron by the Scourge, there were no Paladins on Lordaeron to fight the Scourge. Which is what Tirion created a new order on Lordaeron to do. Knights of the Silver Hand still exist as the in game group of Human and Dwarf Paladins.

Tirion was very much a hero of the Alliance, fighting alongside Uther, Turalyon and fighting even at the Battle of Blackrock, until his exile. In WoW he was a neutral character because of the reasons you stated.

Stating he was never a hero of the alliance is disingenuous

[Fayolynn]

Tirion was very much a hero of the Alliance, fighting alongside Uther, Turalyon and fighting even at the Battle of Blackrock, until his exile. In WoW he was a neutral character because of the reasons you stated.

Stating he was never a hero of the alliance is disingenuous

The majority of WoW players haven't played the other games, they only know Tirion as a neutral character.

[Caerule]

If the Alliance isn't satisfied yet, after beautiful Shadowmoon and Garrison, with the Horde got to freeze their asses off in a spiked dump, for two years? Then nothing will satisfy him.

[Nadiru]

If the Alliance isn't satisfied yet, after beautiful Shadowmoon and Garrison, with the Horde got to freeze their asses off in a spiked dump, for two years? Then nothing will satisfy him.

Saying people should be satisfied because they had "the good Garrison" is patently absurd.

[Zulkhan]

Stating he was never a hero of the alliance is disingenuous

He was an Alliance hero based on his backstory, which was merely told in Metzen's short-novel, novel in which his character was created with the sole purpose of getting exiled at the end of the story he got introduced. Hardly an iconic Alliance figure fans have fond memories about.

After that single novel, he got introduced in WoW as a 100% neutral character. Players that don't read the novels (aka, the vast majority) learned who Tirion was only at that point. It's definitely not comparable to, I don't know, Thrall jumping from Warchief of the Horde to neutral "hero" in the span of one expansion.

The majority of WoW players haven't played the other games, they only know Tirion as a neutral character.

WoW is the first game where Tirion got introduced. Before that, he was only a thing within Metzen's novel Of Blood and Honor.

[Leodok]

What a random distinction to draw. Why does nothing before the highborne exile count?

Anything related to their peoples history is their lore which means where they came from.

Blood Elves came from the High Elves who were exiled Highborne. The Nightborne are descendants of the Highborne elves as well. They all have a share history. Dath'Remar was exiled following the War of the Ancients so any lore about the War of the Ancients is relevant to the Blood Elf people.

Your line of thinking is like saying that anything that happened in Austria in 1500 doesn't count as my families history because my family history started in the 1800's when they immigrated to North America.

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Its fairly easy to tell who lore belongs to, when did the event take place. If something happened after two races split they don't share the lore. If it was before the split they do.

Worgens were humans, which came from the vrykul. Yet Vrykul lore isn't worgen lore.

Blood elves (they weren't blood elves yet but whatever...) abandoned most of their culture when they left the night elves. They abandoned their former lands, their appearence changed a lot, and so did the way they see other races.
They became a completely different race. In territory, culture, religion, appearence, tactics. They were no longer night elves... and no longer highborne.

Yet the nightborne lore is centered on... night elf lore. Their territories were night elf land, their culture, architecture, etc is closer to that of the night elves than to that of the blood elves.