I Had More Spells at Level 60.....

[Mlz]

Combat uses = what I actually have at my disposal, not what's used in a single situation. Boiling down any class to only what it uses during a boss encounter is certainly one of the top dumbest arguments on this site (and there are pleeenty of dumb arguments here, no question).

Yeaa, boiling a class down to what abilities does it need to perform well is such a dumb argument indeed. There's barely any situational abilities left - you just smash your ugly face on your keyboard and hit whatever is off CD. Sick play.

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Hahaha the shameless IQ flame like its 1998 again, I like it. Calm it down bro plenty of games have way fewer buttons than wow and are fun as hell, pretty much every moba comes to mind. You're probably equally terrible at all of them.

Sorry but only a complete retard thinks MMO-s to MOBA-s could and should be using the same basics. First of all there are no skillshots in WoW and second of all, any popular MOBA has items that actively change the way you play (and no - a couple of tierbonuses and a trinket or two isn't the same). Plus you are supposed to be able to play shittons of different characters in MOBA-s while at least until recently one of the main points in WoW was that you actually have your own, you-know, main that you progress and develop? Bet you're the one who complains about CC in PvP aswell because it's so fucking hard to interrupt or run behind a pillar.

[melodramocracy]

Yeaa, boiling a class down to what abilities does it need to perform well is such a dumb argument indeed. There's barely any situational abilities left - you just smash your ugly face on your keyboard and hit whatever is off CD. Sick play.

It's a dumb argument because "what you need to perform well" overall goes beyond just 3 or 4 buttons as you stated earlier. Unless you're one of those players who never interrupts, purges, uses mobility or defense, then sure.

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Sorry but only a complete retard thinks MMO-s to MOBA-s could and should be using the same basics.

And here, we agree on something

[shaunika123]

PvP required you to use 100% of your spells.
I personnally like the class changes, but that argument is wrong since you'd always use almost all of your abilities in a PvP situation

i dont remember using pick pocket in pvp




but seriously just because you used them doesnt make their use engaging gameplay

like did mages really need blizzard AND flamestrike?
or did rogues need both envenom and evis?
yes there was a very slight difference in the benefit of the two in pvp but it's so minuscule that ultimately it just cluttered your action bar, now i cant think of a single ability that you dont use frequently


there doesnt need to be a gazillion abilities to make wow pvp good, it's not bad because of the pruning it's bad because there are waaaay too many dps and defensive cooldowns now compared to TBC/wrath
i have more varied abilities now than i did in TBC on my rogue and about the equal to wrath

[Zyrox]

Agreed. There is still way too much fluff.

In reality the game only needs a total of 6 spells/abilities :
For DPS : 1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 defensive, 1 CC
For Healers : 1 ST heal, 1 AoE heal, 1 defensive, 1 CC

Think about how much more interesting raids will be when Blizz can design raid mechanics on a tight set of abilities.

Lmao go play a moba game not sure wow is for you

[callipygoustp]

Lmao go play a moba game not sure wow is for you

That is the point of that, dripping with sarcasm, post you quoted.

[Zoneseek]

Sorry but only a complete retard thinks MMO-s to MOBA-s could and should be using the same basics. First of all there are no skillshots in WoW and second of all, any popular MOBA has items that actively change the way you play (and no - a couple of tierbonuses and a trinket or two isn't the same). Plus you are supposed to be able to play shittons of different characters in MOBA-s while at least until recently one of the main points in WoW was that you actually have your own, you-know, main that you progress and develop? Bet you're the one who complains about CC in PvP aswell because it's so fucking hard to interrupt or run behind a pillar.

Damn you are one angry dude. Also probably terrible at wow and mobas alike.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Damn you are one angry dude. Also probably terrible at wow and mobas alike.

what makes them seem angry, the fact that they are bothering to reply to you in the first place? or the fact that they actually write arguments in reply to your "lol you probably suck at x y z games hehe" stupidity?

[Luxeley]

Blizzard has successfully been making the game the way the players want it for years, even if/when the players disagree. Less is more : learn to love it.

This might've been true up and until Cata. Blizzard essentially gave players what they wanted and the sub #'s grew. However, this is no longer the case. Blizzard may still be giving the players what they to some degree, but the sub#'s have not only declined, they've rapidly declined. When you go from knocking on the door of 13 million subs 5 years ago to desperately clinging to 5.6 million subs, what you are doing is NOT working. The lack of growth in WOW is so horrendous they refuse to report the sub #'s anymore.

[Deleted]

In vanilla everyone knew every single path in BRD. Everybody had the ubrs key, and nobody ever was jealous over someone who had a level 50 epic.

[Anaphaze]

I understand why some may want less buttons and simpler rotations. I get it. having shadowbolt as destruction when you have incinerate is dumb, ect. The problem is they went TOO far. For example, holy priests lost Psychic Scream, which is a rather iconic priest spell. Frost DK lost their min-maxing when it came to killing machine, which was literally the only moderately difficult thing about the spec, now it's just press obliterate when you can, frost strike when you can, HB with rime procs.

Also, the "spec into more active talents!" argument is silly. If you do anything competitive in this game you will spec what gives you the highest dps for the situation. This, many times (many more times than it actually should be,) is the passive talents.

I agree that i'd much prefer easier rotations and more difficult boss fights (although why do we need to choose? See: Lei Shen in MOP), but they went too far with some class rotations, and they pruned WAY too much utility away.

One thing I will say that I DO like, is that I like when classes are more unique in PvP. Warlocks/mages/rogues all have much more CC than most other classes. This would be awesome if they ALSO did less damage than say, a warrior. I love the idea of, as an example, a warrior bringing no CC, few defensives, and a crap ton of just straight up damage, whereas a warlock will bring less damage but bring CC and defensives.

edit: The boss fights in Legion better be SIGNIFICANTLY more complex than ANY OTHER EXPANSION. The classes at this point are almost as easy/brain dead as TBC hunter or warlock. Imagine a boss fight like Kargath where you perform a 3 button rotation and don't do much other than move every 15-20 seconds. This would be insanely boring. WOTLK, Cata, and MoP had the benefits that almost every class was moderately heavy on procs/rotations. Add to that that that many MoP fights were already incredibly complex, and you have a recipe for fantastic raiding.

[Luxeley]

i dont remember using pick pocket in pvp




but seriously just because you used them doesnt make their use engaging gameplay

like did mages really need blizzard AND flamestrike?
or did rogues need both envenom and evis?
yes there was a very slight difference in the benefit of the two in pvp but it's so minuscule that ultimately it just cluttered your action bar, now i cant think of a single ability that you dont use frequently


there doesnt need to be a gazillion abilities to make wow pvp good, it's not bad because of the pruning it's bad because there are waaaay too many dps and defensive cooldowns now compared to TBC/wrath
i have more varied abilities now than i did in TBC on my rogue and about the equal to wrath

The examples you provide make perfect sense, I agree with you. However, if you're losing CC or utility in pvp, which was the case with WOD and now Legion, the game is less complex, requires less skill and thought and is pretty fucking boring.

[callipygoustp]

This might've been true up and until Cata. Blizzard essentially gave players what they wanted and the sub #'s grew. However, this is no longer the case. Blizzard may still be giving the players what they to some degree, but the sub#'s have not only declined, they've rapidly declined. When you go from knocking on the door of 13 million subs 5 years ago to desperately clinging to 5.6 million subs, what you are doing is NOT working. The lack of growth in WOW is so horrendous they refuse to report the sub #'s anymore.

I seem to be horrible at making my sarcastic posts come across as actually being sarcastic.

I think blizzard has actively been destroying the game ever since the nerfs that came in patch 4.2. Its been down hill since then.

[Luxeley]

I seem to be horrible at making my sarcastic posts come across as actually being sarcastic.

I think blizzard has actively been destroying the game ever since the nerfs that came in patch 4.2. Its been down hill since then.

Sarcasm is never given justice in the written word. Glad you see the light. And you're right the snowball of mediocrity and stupidity started rolling down hill around 4.2/ 4.3 and it keeps rolling and rolling.

[Anaphaze]

see the thing is gameplay is not in a bubble. You can not compar shit with past expansions because mechanics in raids get more difficult und complex any expansion, which read already a high in this regard in this expansion where a tremendous ammount of guilds could not cope with it so the tiers got nerfed drasticly. At is pretty safe to assume that the legion gonna pile up on this (which i think its a mistake). combining this with that in most fights they are tight dps and hps checks what you gonna do?

We can certainly compare expansions. We had a solid 3 expansions of raiding (I'm not including TBC raiding even though it was my favorite expansion due to nostalgia) that made the complex rotations and complex fights compliment eachother. I have not raiding HFC so I cannot speak for that, but if they are that hard, they should be removing raid mechanics, not gutting class rotations. I don't remember anyone complaining that Lei Shen was "boring" or didn't have enough mechanics.

If they make all the fights extra difficult, weaker players are still going to have issues with the raids. If they continue that trend I can totally see people complaining raid bosses are "too hard" in legion, and they go into the next expansion making mechanics easier. Then what do we have? 3 button rotations and 3 mechanic fights. Might as well be playing a D3 MMO at that point.

[Keny]

I really feel like rotations should be kept to a minimum. The average DPS spec should have three abilities that it rotates through, and then, say, a class specific one - like a DoT, say, Rip or w/e that druid one is (I haven't played Druid since Cata...). There should be an execution style ability, so ALL classes can burn hard near the end of the fight, and then 2-3 CDs that do various things depending on the class and spec.

The only reason people want complicated rotations is to make themselves stand out and feel good about themselves when they git gud. But that leaves the vast majority of us only playing at half-par or less. If everyone could master their class fairly easily, there would be a lot less complaining about 'bads'. Or, make the complaining more legit - if you can't bother to hit three-5 fucking buttons, you really don't need to be playing.

Many current abilities could be rolled into our primary abilities. Rogues and Druids don't need that many freaking finishing moves. Put the Damage, DoT, and/or Heals finishers together. Of course the one(s) that stun can be left as-is, that's a useful CC ability. Speaking of rogues especially, I think 'combo' points should literally involve a combo - Instead of just spamming one or two buttons to get the points you need, use Ability A, then B, then C, then boom, big finisher. You could even get say a bonus to damage if you use them in the right order. Sure, you could spam 1-2 to get your points, but the damage bonus of hitting A-D or w/e would be worth the effort.

This may also have another beneficial side-effect - no need for rotation bots anymore. Half your guild banned/suspended because they use SoapBox? Not anymore! Again if they can't hit 5 buttons to max their DPS, they aren't worth keeping around anyway.

Of course things can be kept moderately difficult with procs and such. Not trying to take ALL the fun out of it.

Wow, a perfect example of the Scrub friendly attitude RIGHT THERE = I dont have enough time to play / I am bad at this game so - YOU SHOULD ALL suffer for it and make the ENTIRE game easier so people like me who dont want to put the effort In the game , In learning my class and learning how to min/max my stuff.
Bloody hell, a 3button rotation and a dot? what Is this league of legends? go play pacman If you want things handed to you and be "easy to play".
Also the "vast majority" are like that because of the dumbing down of the game since wotlk, people in vanilla actually learned to play their class and use multitude of skills because leveling was rough and you had to play properly or else you would die, people in tbc learned to minmax because you needed it for raiding or else you would die, but then wotlk naxx came and wotlk "heroics" came and LFR came and guess what people can play like shit and still manage to do the dungeon, HENCE = VAST MAJORITY OF BAD PLAYERS .

That sort of attitude Is just bad, and with that attitude In real life we would still be stuck In the middle ages , some people want to excel at what they do unlike other.
Have a mediocre day sir.

[namecraft]

MMO champion; where angry people meet

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Rotations were considered deep and challenging in this game ever? I mean I will admit I am not world first caliber but it usually only took a very short while to figure out and understand a rotation of a class to be doing optimal / acceptable DPS. I never felt insanely challenged or pushed by any rotation. Some people in here are acting like the game has gone from this mountain of challenge to lack of any. It's more like it went from 4 or 5 key rotations to 3 or 4 key rotations. 3 or 4 utilities (1 or 2 commonly used) to 2 or 3 utilities (1 or 2 commonly used). But remember you can talent into more keys AND most artifacts will give you one or two as well when they are filled out with one usually being right away. PVP tree will also be providing more keys to use as well. Trust once the whole system is live and opened up you will have more to press in both PVE and PVP. Maybe not as much as before but it won't be nearly as bare bones as the system feels right now in pre patch.

[Deleted]

On my shadow priest: I am really missing stuff like hymn of hope, divine hymn, basic healing spells, lifegrip, hp switch, the old version of mind spike and mind vision, but I guess I can live without.

On my demonology warlock: I am really missing instant cast stuff like more dots, shadowflame, hand of guldan, the instant cast spamable spell and all the demonology form spells. Also severely missing teleport and leap for mobility... No longer playing demonology, and I doubt there wont be any QoL changes to that spec.

My unholy DK is actually pretty ok. Missing stuff like Dark Simulacrum, Necrotic Strike and Anti Magic Zone, but that can be specced in the pvp talent tree.


I think arena pvp was better in Tbc when classes were more defined around their unique skill sets, but there still were a ton of buttons to use for every single purpose. However I enjoyed random BGs and world pvp a lot more in Cata and MoP when you could play any class and really do everything by yourself because your skill set was so large (every class had burst, cooldowns, mobility and cc).

I will wait for Legion to see whether I will enjoy these type of skill sets more or less.

[Deleted]

On my shadow priest: I am really missing stuff like... <snip>

I think this will take some time for all of use (or at least the people who played a class for multiple years) to get adjusted to. For example; I resubbed a month ago, did not play WoD at all. Took me two weeks to adjust to not spamming Lifebloom 3 times on my healing target lol. I kept interrupting my Wild Growth cast time because of how used I was to it being instant cast. Yesterday I kept pressing my keybind where Gift of the Wild was every time I ressed at the GY. I keep pressing my keybind where Soothe was to dispell rages. My cyclone being gone (is a talent now) is really weird. Some keymoves we've had for as long as I can remember are suddenly just gone.

Edit: Stampeding Roar and Hurricane being gone makes me a sad panda in PvP too.

[bledgor]

I remember my vanilla rotation to this day, keep CoS/CoE up then spam shadowbolt, because I wasn't allowed to cast my dots because of the debuff limit on mobs/bosses. Ah the life of the 2.5 button rotation, SB, life tap, and CoS/CoE.

I use just about every ability I have now, compared to vanilla/BC/Wrath were ~50% of my skills weren't touched (looking at things like curse of weakness, death coil before the warlock rework patch, my dots when raiding, fire/the other stone that required soul stones, etc).

I really wish they made a vanilla server already so all of these whiny children could leave.