Alliance satisfied yet

[Deleted]

Debatable since the Iron Horde was led by the MU Horde historical figures.

True, but I'd say there is a major difference between Horde-patch and Orcs to kill-patch, this being that Orc to kill-patch is boring to both factions and Horde-patch is only boring to Alliance.
Also I'd like to point out that even though Majordormo Staghelm was a NE-character (never played NE so I have no idea what kind of character), Firelands and Hyjal had nothing to do with NE-lore.

Weird, Horde fans are always complaining about killing their own "heroes" in WoD... which is it?

Just like Faolynn pointed out, whichever suits our needs. Also as I pointed out, there's is a difference (to me atleast) in killing cool orcs and advancing horde lore.

[Deleted]

If the Alliance isn't satisfied yet, after beautiful Shadowmoon and Garrison, with the Horde got to freeze their asses off in a spiked dump, for two years? Then nothing will satisfy him.

A beautiful place with nothing to do?

OT: There is a lot of back and forth and trying to count each expansion against the other. From this thread I do get the impression that Cata was meant to equalize the territory distribution and both "sides" don't mind that. It's just that the storytelling gave the alliance a really good beating and often even didn't tell the alliance player about it or in a really uncharming way. For me as an alliance player Cata meant to login just to find out that a lot of nice places were devastated and in addition it wasn't because a big dragon wrecked havoc but because the horde attacked and we lost on almost all fronts. Up to this day Theramore I'd have no clue why it was bombed just from what was told in game.

This is one the biggest gaps, from my personal perception, while following such discussions. There are those which just know what happened in game and those which know every novel. My problem with this is that indeed it looks like that the comics and novels etc. have a good equivalency if it comes to showtime and storytelling for alliance horde. But starting and expansion with the question "Which novel should I read to get the story of my faction?" just is kind of not so nice if you're playing a game.

[Razaron]

Alliance satisfied yet?

Depends on the person and if it fits their narrative. Warcraft story isn't made for the Alliance players who feel they're being treated unfairly, likewise Horde. You can pick a part the World of Warcraft storylines to the bare bones, is it fair? No. Is it meant to be? No.

Suck it up buttercups, this isn't meant to be Red kills Blue so Blue must kill Red to make it fair.

[Fayolynn]

WoW is the first game where Tirion got introduced. Before that, he was only a thing within Metzen's novel Of Blood and Honor.

I could have sworn he was mentioned in one of the RTS Warcraft games. If it was just in the book thats even worse. :-P

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Worgens were humans, which came from the vrykul. Yet Vrykul lore isn't worgen lore.

Blood elves (they weren't blood elves yet but whatever...) abandoned most of their culture when they left the night elves. They abandoned their former lands, their appearence changed a lot, and so did the way they see other races.
They became a completely different race. In territory, culture, religion, appearence, tactics. They were no longer night elves... and no longer highborne.

Yet the nightborne lore is centered on... night elf lore. Their territories were night elf land, their culture, architecture, etc is closer to that of the night elves than to that of the blood elves.

It doesn't matter if they "abandoned" their culture. It is still part of the story of where they came from and who they are as a people there for the lore is still relevant to them.

[Traveler Voltin]

I have no idea whats going on so.

How about them gnomes?

[ravenmoon]

What a random distinction to draw. Why does nothing before the highborne exile count?

Anything related to their peoples history is their lore which means where they came from.

Blood Elves came from the High Elves who were exiled Highborne. The Nightborne are descendants of the Highborne elves as well. They all have a share history. Dath'Remar was exiled following the War of the Ancients so any lore about the War of the Ancients is relevant to the Blood Elf people.

Nightborne are not the descendants of highborne, many of them are the original night elves whose bodies have changed a bit. Still night elven-ish but different. THis is unlike the blood elves who are descendants of highborne but more than that, those highborne, the Zin'Azshari highborne led by Darth'remar they consciously changed themselves from being night elves, no longer being night elf highborne but instead simply High Elves. The nightborne however are still very night elven in their ways, and many of them still alive from 10k years ago are the same people, still elves of the night, still night elven culture continued - not a new beginning or radical changedivorcing themselves from all things night elves like the High elves did. Just bear that in mind.

[Istaria]

Blizz admitted that they simply ran out time for the Alliance's story in Cata. ...
Now I will say that yes, they've gotten MUCH better about story balance since then (it's been a gradual improvement, to be sure). So legit kudos. I won't apologize for comments that were true at the time though.

Well written & well argued.

[Mace]

If you have at all played the story line involving Malfurion, Tyrande and Maiev, then you would know that they are not really featured enough and its an outrage that they do not even think about taking Suramar back.

we know blizzard never show everything, or all the angles we would like, even when they should as it would be an engaging and interesting story. Saying that, Suramar is as much the night elves city as it is the nightborne - and the two groups are related, they have a strong connection given that it is likely nightborne in Suramar are related to niight elves in Darnassus, since the majority of the survivors from the WotA were from Suramar. They should be trying to re-establish ties, track down lost family connections - who knows, Shandris may have living relatives amongst the nightborne, not to mention Tyrande's siblings etc, not storming the place to take it over - well in normal circumstances anyway.

For me, I see it more a matter of reonnecting with their kin this is hardly normal circumstances as we full know. Under Elisande we know this doesn't happen, she and Gul'dan send nightborne under her sway to pillage a few things they need from the Moonguard. They don't care about reconnecting ties or anything like that..however despite nearly wiped out, the Moonguard prevail in safegaurding their secret and Thalyssra the nightborne resistance leader welcomes them, keen to re-establish ties with their ancient kin they've been long separated from. She takes the Moonguard as well as Valssharah night elves under her wing. Together they join the fight against Elisande and the Legion

So what is clear here is that, there are nightborne re-kindling their ties, not the Legion controlled lot, but the ones we eventually help win back the city. It is surprising that Tyrande and Maiev don't help storm the place too, but I think it's better this way, as this way it shows the nightborne quite competent and a noble to take a stand against the evil of the Legion if it costs them their lives and competent enough to solve organise and strategise their efforts against the legion. It's good cos this way the night elves are not going to be having questions about their resolve, comittment or competency, they've shown that even with the corruption of the nightwell tha that leads to the awful Withered state(none of which is their fault) they are still not given to loathsome behaviour, feeding of sentients or demons, or glutting over magic - in stark contrast to other highborne groups we've met or the blood elves and wretched during their dark time. It goes to show what calibre of arcane user that even when faced with such a horrible fate they still act responsibly, something that did not only happen when they had access to the nightwell and weren't starving - showing you that these people actually for a change managed magic very responsibly and very well, the first group since before Azshara's madness amongst the night elves.. and it would be a point of pride to the Kalimdor night elves that it is their friends and family from Suramar, their city that showed the sort of distinction and discipline in this that so many other highborne had failed.

It sounds like the sort of thing that will reconnect the two peoples in a strong and amicable relationship/

[Atreyis]

Why do people feel the need to be all petty and shit?

I play both factions, any story and development will entertain me eventually... But I have to say that killing Vol'Jin after such a short time, is a douche move by Blizzard...

I agree with this guy. I've mained on both sides of the fence and I have no problem with the story moving organically no matter which faction is leading the charge.

QQ Vol'Jin...

[Trassk]

Isn't it time you all stopped fudging around with faction bias and just accept lore on both sides can be both enjoyable and garbage? Apart from raiding teams, there is nothing stopping someone from playing both now.

[Koryn123]

Blood elves (they weren't blood elves yet but whatever...) abandoned most of their culture when they left the night elves.

They abandoned the heavy focus on the night and Elune, and rejected the new way of thinking brought about by Malfurion that nature was the best thing ever and they should all live in trees and sleep all the time in the Emerald Dream. That's pretty much it.

They abandoned their former lands, their appearance changed a lot, and so did the way they see other races.

They were banished from their former lands and their Sunwell changed their appearance through no deliberate act of their own. And that last bit is completely false. The Night Elves were very much xenophobic and racist pre-Sundering. They had a mutual hatred with the Tauren, Dwarves, Troll Empires, etc.

They became a completely different race. In territory, culture, religion, appearance, tactics. They were no longer night elves... and no longer highborne.

They had different territory, but so do today's current Night Elves with the center of their civilization on Teldrassil now. Religion was never of huge interest to the Highborne, as they were more interested in worshipping Azshara as a demigoddess and focusing their time on study of the Arcane over worship of Elune.

Their tactics didn't change. They pretty much kept the same things they always used. Arcane magic, arrows, glaives, etc. They kept a reverence for nature, though were unafraid of using magic to manipulate it to serve their needs, just like the Night Elves had for millennia.

True, they are no longer Night Elves, having different physiology and a different name. But "Highborne" is just the noble bloodline of Night Elven society, so they are to this day still Highborne by blood.


You seem to be defining Night Elf society by Malfurion and Tyrande's group that is in the Alliance today, which couldn't be farther from their pre-Sundering roots.

Night Elven society didn't have the Sentinels until Tyrande established them, comprised mainly of Priestesses of Elune, because most of the men became druids and were asleep in the Emerald Dream. They're the ones whose tactics changed dramatically. They renounced arcane magic and pretty much all their men slept in the Emerald Dream, so the only magic they had outside the war against the Satyrs, War of Shifting Sands, WC3, and now WoW, was the Elune's Light through their priestesses.

Their territories were night elf land, their culture, architecture, etc is closer to that of the night elves than to that of the blood elves.

The Nightborne's culture is one of excess and luxury with arcane magic saturating every aspect of their lives, being constantly bathed in the power of the Nightwell every moment of every day. That's the exact opposite of everything the Darnassian elves do.

And about their architecture:

Night Elf: http://pre02.deviantart.net/2d45/th/...ft-d7c936s.jpg

Nightborne: http://66.media.tumblr.com/589ef0698...po5o3_1280.png

High/Blood Elf: http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...eSample-16.jpg

Looks like the Nightborne and the Thalassian Elves both like their buildings gilded in gold, lots of sweeping nice thin marble spires, while the Night Elves, on the rare occasion that they actually build a building rather than live in a tree that looks like a house, appear much more humble and simple.

Though, granted, there haven't been many opportunities for high-res up-to-date graphic representation of Darnassian architecture, so we don't have much to go on besides old blocky Vanilla models. So if there are any current Darnassian buildings somewhere in Legion that aren't belonging to some organization that's been far removed from the Night Elves (like the Wardens), that look a lot like Suramar's buildings, I'll be happy to agree that they're the closest.

But as it stands now, having mainly cool colors rather than warm colors =/= most similar to Nightborne architecture.

If I paint a little rinky-dink shack white, that doesn't make it the same style as The White House.

[Leodok]

The Night Elves were very much xenophobic and racist pre-Sundering. They had a mutual hatred with the Tauren, Dwarves, Troll Empires, etc.

Exactly. Then blood elves were banished and became much less xenophobic and racist (even if it was just so they could survive). They were peaceful towards humans and ended up helping / being helped by them. At some point, they became part of an alliance including humans, dwarves and gnomes. That's not something the old Highborne would do.

You seem to be defining Night Elf society by Malfurion and Tyrande's group that is in the Alliance today, which couldn't be farther from their pre-Sundering roots.

Well, the people (not Highborne) before the sundering were relatively similar to current night elves (didn't have much druidism and sentinels and stuff, though). Their leadership and all of that is what was more drastically changed.

Looks like the Nightborne and the Thalassian Elves both like their buildings gilded in gold, lots of sweeping nice thin marble spires, while the Night Elves, on the rare occasion that they actually build a building rather than live in a tree that looks like a house, appear much more humble and simple.

Though, granted, there haven't been many opportunities for high-res up-to-date graphic representation of Darnassian architecture, so we don't have much to go on besides old blocky Vanilla models. So if there are any current Darnassian buildings somewhere in Legion that aren't belonging to some organization that's been far removed from the Night Elves (like the Wardens), that look a lot like Suramar's buildings, I'll be happy to agree that they're the closest.

Actually, most buildings in Suramar look more night-elven... some look like high-rez versions of nelf ruins. There was an image of a Nightborne house in the wow website that had a very night elf style, almost like one of their wooden buildings but made of stone/marbor. Too lazy to try to find it again, though.
I also used the cata dungeon as my example of Highborne architecture. Blizzard may have re-thought it.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Just like Faolynn pointed out, whichever suits our needs. Also as I pointed out, there's is a difference (to me atleast) in killing cool orcs and advancing horde lore.

Doesn't really address what I said. Its shitty and fake to act like WoD was an expac where The Horde lost heroes (which I've seen on these boards) .. then turn around and act like 'Garrosh and AU Horde have nothing to do with the AU Horde...) .. either it is, or it isn't.

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I agree with this guy. I've mained on both sides of the fence and I have no problem with the story moving organically no matter which faction is leading the charge.

QQ Vol'Jin...

I play both factions too.. but I doubt thats common. And most people have a favorite faction.

[Koryn123]

Doesn't really address what I said. Its shitty and fake to act like WoD was an expac where The Horde lost heroes (which I've seen on these boards) .. then turn around and act like 'Garrosh and AU Horde have nothing to do with the AU Horde...) .. either it is, or it isn't.

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I play both factions too.. but I doubt thats common. And most people have a favorite faction.

Considering how the player Horde have never been allies with the Iron Horde, I don't consider the bosses we killed blindfolded with our hands tied behind our backs one after the other to be Horde heroes. They're AU versions of heroes of the Old Horde that pretty much everyone agrees were evil at the time, except Durotan, pretty much. Orgrim and Grom were okay near the end, but everyone else was evil. It's just old orcs telling stories about those "heroes" to their kids, so their kids think they're super awesome. Like Thrall to Garrosh with Grom. If only any of them said "But they were huge dicks, most of the time" so those kids didn't grow up to be the type to join Garrosh in Cata and MoP.

And all the WoD versions were evil again except Durotan.

So I don't consider it a Horde-favoring xpac. Maybe orc-favoring, if it weren't for the fact that we steamroll through the supposedly super strong Iron Horde at every opportunity like they were twigs. The opening cinematic was super cool, and made me wanna join the Iron Horde, but then it was all just the same thing we've done countless times before. "Rawr, kill them, we're so evil, rawr, oh noes, you just killed all of us like it was nothing, rawr"

Not really sure who exactly WoD was for. Gul'dan, I guess, to explain how he could end up doing what he does in Legion. Because Blizzard bends over backwards to explain stuff like that these days, rather than simply use some other demon or something. Could have used literally anyone for Gul'dan's role.

If only Kael'thas and Illidan could have gotten such buildup and explanation for their curly-mustached cartoon villain-hood.

[therealbowser]

I was satisfied from the moment I found out the Broken Isles focused on Night elves, but hey, thanks for clarifying that Horde entitlement hasn't gone anywhere. I had forgotten what it felt like... it hasn't happened since WotLK, I believe? It's been a while since we had an expansion that wasn't focused on quality Horde-side story and themes.

Personally I was happy with Draenor since it had good Alliance quest chains, and I was fairly happy with MoP as well for the same reason (aside from the abomination that was 5.3). But if you think both didn't focus on Horde-themed content you are delusional, friend. And Cataclysm had absolutely joke-worthy Alliance stories and shoved Thrall in your face as the hero the entire expansion, so let's not even touch that one.

[Koryn123]

Exactly. Then blood elves were banished and became much less xenophobic and racist (even if it was just so they could survive). They were peaceful towards humans and ended up helping / being helped by them. At some point, they became part of an alliance including humans, dwarves and gnomes. That's not something the old Highborne would do.

Ooooh, I see. I thought you were saying the night elves were accepting and nice, and the High Elves were mean.

Eh, the Highborne were also willing to make sacrifices, like Dath'Remar and his group who eventually became the High Elves giving up their positions and betraying their queen to side with the icky gross peasant Night Elves, and then Tauren and Dwarves alongside them against overwhelming odds like the Legion.

The Shen'drelar also swallowed their pride and re-joined the Night Elves.

And the Nightborne as well, seeing there was no alternative and joining the Legion to survive, rather than being willing participants for power and prestige like Azshara's Highborne did.

Well, the people (not Highborne) before the sundering were relatively similar to current night elves (didn't have much druidism and sentinels and stuff, though). Their leadership and all of that is what was more drastically changed.

They were entirely different. With tons and tons of arcane magic all over the place. Their lives were also saturated with magic, just not as much as the Highborne's were. Everyone seemed to know magic in some form or another. Even Malfurion was a mage before he became a druid.

After the Sundering, the vast majority of the male Night Elves became druids, going to sleep in the Emerald Dream except for when Tyrande woke them up during any emergencies.

Men who before lived as fathers, husbands, brothers, sons, regular dudes, just going about their business and living, now all sleeping indefinitely, leaving their daughters, wives, sisters, etc. behind in the physical world to bear their burdens alone.

For thousands of years before the Third War, it was even forbidden for men to be Sentinels or priests, or for women to be druids.

Pre-Sundering, they were ruled by queens/kings, with princes and princesses as smaller government officials over different areas, all answering to their queen/king. Post-Sundering, they're governed by the Priestesses of Elune, with Tyrande as its leader.

I'd say that's a pretty extreme difference in their day-to-day lives from pre to post-Sundering.

Actually, most buildings in Suramar look more night-elven... some look like high-rez versions of nelf ruins. There was an image of a Nightborne house in the wow website that had a very night elf style, almost like one of their wooden buildings but made of stone/marbor. Too lazy to try to find it again, though.

I also used the cata dungeon as my example of Highborne architecture. Blizzard may have re-thought it.

I was talking about Nightborne, Thalassian, and current Night Elf architecture, not pre-Sundering Highborne architecture, as your assertion was that Nightborne's buildings are most similar to modern Night Elf buildings, rather than Thalassian ones.

As it stands today, that's not the case. In Suramar, their city looks most similar to Silvermoon. High, sweeping marble walls, extravagant silver and gold trimming, gemstones embedded in their structures.

They also have beautiful paved roads and sidewalks. Night Elves have normal land and buildings made of trees to go along with that land, never covering it up. The only time I've ever seen something like a deliberate stone surface for walking on has been a bridge or the floor of a temple they've built somewhere.

https://youtu.be/9UZANsTWivg?t=3h19m28s have you ever seen anything like this in any Night Elf territory? I can confidently say it looks very reminiscent of Silvermoon City.

[Zulkhan]

I play both factions too.. but I doubt thats common. And most people have a favorite faction.

Playing both factions is definitely common. The same cannot be said about people's preferences in regards of factions. Hard enough to find someone who plays WoW (especially those who follow the lore but even many of those who don't) and is 100% neutral about Alliance and Horde.

[Ciddy]

How you can compare camp with big port city? Hell Horde mana bombed Alliance druid school in Stonetalon Mountains.

I thought Garrosh (back when he was still cool) stopped that before it could happen and personally executed the orc who was behind it for using "dishonorable tactics" or something along those lines.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I thought Garrosh (back when he was still cool) stopped that before it could happen and personally executed the orc who was behind it for using "dishonorable" tactics.

yes, Garrosh killed that orc.

[Deleted]

Yay? I guess? After 3 expansions the Alliance can get a little story as well? So after this we can shut up and endure orcs from 8.0-12.3?