Should Masterloot be brought back for pugs?

[thunderdragon2]

2) And with taking away ML as option for leaders to reward themselves, the number of people willing to do this work will drop

if people don't know the tactics and how the boss works and don't lead the raid aka leave it to the tanks to do their job they don't deserve to take anything for themselves as they haven't done anything for it (and no putting the group together doesn't count, anyone can do that but as i have said not many people can lead)

if the only reason you make a raid is to reserve what your after with no regards to the other people helping to put that boss(es) then you are just selfish.

master loot was removed to try and remove some of the selfishness form the game

[HappyCola]

Ok. I'll give you an example of what REAL loot system is. Do you think RL can "clearly state" all this rules at the beginning of the raid?

That's not a "real" loot system. It's stupidly over-complicating a simple thing. I actually ran countless pugs back in WotLK, including ICC 25hc, and my loot rules were: "/roll, MS > OS, priority for those that have not gotten a drop yet". That is all that needed to be said, and I never once had any problems or drama with the loot rules. It just works.

[thunderdragon2]

That's not a "real" loot system. It's stupidly over-complicating a simple thing. I actually ran countless pugs back in WotLK, including ICC 25hc, and my loot rules were: "/roll, MS > OS, priority for those that have not gotten a drop yet". That is all that needed to be said, and I never once had any problems or drama with the loot rules. It just works.

fair enough but did your weekly runs become something that you found mostly the same people attending? i yes then that's where it differs from today as you dont normal have the same group of people in your run twice in a row

[HappyCola]

fair enough but did your weekly runs become something that you found mostly the same people attending? i yes then that's where it differs from today as you dont normal have the same group of people in your run twice in a row

There were maybe 4-5 players that attended most weeks. The only two people that ran every week were me and my off tank. The rest would be made up from a random set of something like 100 players, and every week there were new people.

But what I'm trying to get at here is that the problem is that the realm social structures that made my pugs possible and enjoyable don't really exist in WoW anymore. Instead there seems to be a lot of completely random pugs made from complete strangers. Those are just never going to be particularly fun or enjoyable. Screwing around with the loot system will not fix the fundamental problem, it will at most (poorly) treat one small symptom.

I probably would have chosen ML over PL if I had the option, because to me it just feels better to kill the boss together and then share and distribute the loot together. PL is one of those mechanisms that turns the game more towards a solo experience rather than promoting a joint group experience shared with others. But had I been forced into PL, I wouldn't have stopped my runs, just enjoyed them less.

[SirBeef]

well you trade ninjalooting for people selling loot they dont need.

pick your poison there is always something that can be abused.

Selling gear is not a poison. It is the same as putting up a BoE on the AH instead of giving it away for free. no one is going to say a PuG should give up a BoE for free now would they?

[Tinykong]

Master Loot should be disabled for groups created and filled with the Group Finder tool.

That was the only change that was needed.

[thunderdragon2]

There were maybe 4-5 players that attended most weeks. The only two people that ran every week were me and my off tank. The rest would be made up from a random set of something like 100 players, and every week there were new people.

But what I'm trying to get at here is that the problem is that the realm social structures that made my pugs possible and enjoyable don't really exist in WoW anymore. Instead there seems to be a lot of completely random pugs made from complete strangers. Those are just never going to be particularly fun or enjoyable. Screwing around with the loot system will not fix the fundamental problem, it will at most (poorly) treat one small symptom.

I probably would have chosen ML over PL if I had the option, because to me it just feels better to kill the boss together and then share and distribute the loot together. PL is one of those mechanisms that turns the game more towards a solo experience rather than promoting a joint group experience shared with others. But had I been forced into PL, I wouldn't have stopped my runs, just enjoyed them less.

i see your point fair enough, but i will disagree i have had many many unfortunate run ins with many ninjas over my years playing this game and personalty i feel that taking the power over every one else's change to get loot from the raid leader is a good thing.

now it may have been misfortune that i have run into so many but that's the experiences i have been left with towards the ML loot system mostly it was jut mount but with its a piece of gear or a mount if you go with ML system you have to be able to trust the raid leader and finding the ability to trust the leaders that say only X is reserved to not turn around and say "Y is also reserved is very hard to do in the current state of the game

[WowIsDead64]

That's not a "real" loot system. It's stupidly over-complicating a simple thing. I actually ran countless pugs back in WotLK, including ICC 25hc, and my loot rules were: "/roll, MS > OS, priority for those that have not gotten a drop yet". That is all that needed to be said, and I never once had any problems or drama with the loot rules. It just works.

Hahaha. Blizzard have stated, that anything, that haven't been clearly stated - is up to RL. RL could simply say in the middle of the raid, that "MS = my spec and OS = others' specs" and he would be right. And Blizzard won't be able to help other players in this raid, cuz "MS > OS" - is all, they accepted. So, according to Blizzard, Ninja-looting would be pretty much legitimate in this case. If Blizzard would have posted "MS>OS" rules at their offsite as default rules - then it would have "just worked". For example: "Upgrade" part of rules have always been very vague. It have always been up to RL to determine, whether item is upgrade for particular player or not. I.e. RL should have known all items priorities for all classes and specs. It's damn big amount of data for one single person. So, RL could have simply say "This item isn't upgrade for you - it's upgrade for my friend only".

Players simply didn't know about his fact in the past - they assumed, that there are rules, that are accepted and set in stone for entire community, including Blizzard themselves, and that RL could have been banned for violating this rules. But at some point players realized, that they wouldn't be punished for Ninja-looting and...Ninja-looting-fest started. It was like a plague. More and more players started to follow this terrible "If everybody else Ninjaes things - I'll Ninja too" mentality. If Blizzard would have stopped this nonsense right at the beginning - there wouldn't be any problems now. But they didn't. So we have, what we have - we can't trust to anybody. And this crap just can't go on any further - it have to be stopped.

So, go to hell with your ML. One of the major reasons, why I stopped PUGging - is Ninja-looting. And I will never do PUG raids again, till Blizzard won't implement "Personal loot only raids" option for me, so with this option being turned on RL won't be able to switch to any other loot option.

[HappyCola]

RL could simply say in the middle of the raid, that "MS = my spec and OS = others' specs" and he would be right.

I don't think game design should be based on imaginary problems.

So, go to hell with your ML. One of the major reasons, why I stopped PUGging - is Ninja-looting. And I will never do PUG raids again, till Blizzard won't implement "Personal loot only raids" option for me, so with this option being turned on RL won't be able to switch to any other loot option.

This is not a problem with the loot system, it's a problem with you joining groups that you don't trust and that are run by scumbags. No loot system is going to make those groups enjoyable. And remember that we're not talking about adding the option of PL so that you could decide to only join PL groups, but removing the ML option even from people that trust each other and would like to use it because it makes the game more enjoyable to them.

[Deleted]

if people don't know the tactics and how the boss works and don't lead the raid aka leave it to the tanks to do their job they don't deserve to take anything for themselves as they haven't done anything for it (and no putting the group together doesn't count, anyone can do that but as i have said not many people can lead)

if the only reason you make a raid is to reserve what your after with no regards to the other people helping to put that boss(es) then you are just selfish.

master loot was removed to try and remove some of the selfishness form the game

humans are selfish, and those who were motivated by the ability to reserv loot from themselves will no longer start pugs.
And if the Master Looter isn't the raid leader and you don't trust the ML, LEAVE the fucking group.

The option worked rather well for over a decade, there were no protests to remove the option, but Blizzard acted anyway.

[thunderdragon2]

humans are selfish, and those who were motivated by the ability to reserv loot from themselves will no longer start pugs.
And if the Master Looter isn't the raid leader and you don't trust the ML, LEAVE the fucking group.

The option worked rather well for over a decade, there were no protests to remove the option, but Blizzard acted anyway.

my problem is when the masterlooter is the raidleader they are the ones that reserve all this crap and decides they are more deserving ogf loot than anyone else

[thunderdragon2]

then make your own group or get friends, problem solved

sometimes i do but they are not always on and was that many people didn't want to join a group with pl unless it was archi due to the misconception that ML=more loot

[Jewsco]

welcome in the world of being a (Pug) Raidleader


when legions hit you gonna have the same problem but this time the hunter with 720 gear and 15k dmg gonna get the archi class trinket because personal loot


well isnt that fun and fair

How is that any different or worse than it being reserved for the raid leader or his buddy who aren't doing good dps either or don't meet the ilevel requirements for the raid but in it anyway?
Also that same hunter could of won the roll at least with personal loot everyone has a shot at it and if I already have it or something better I could trade it to someone.
Master looter only leads to loot drama in pugs and am glad it is gone.

[Deleted]

sometimes i do but they are not always on and was that many people didn't want to join a group with pl unless it was archi due to the misconception that ML=more loot

so because the game doesn't do what you want, when you want it. You think it's okay to damage the game for all other players?

If you can't find or form a group, that's bad for you. But is forcing people to cater to you a good deal?
How would you like it, if they removed personal loot from pugs and only made it for guilds?

Always think about a problem, as if it affected you. If you still are okay with the change, fine. If not, well welcome to other peoples life.

[Deleted]

Master looter only leads to loot drama in pugs and am glad it is gone.

If that were true NOBODY would join those groups. Only because your experience was bad, doesn't mean it was the same for everyone else.

[Jewsco]

If that were true NOBODY would join those groups. Only because your experience was bad, doesn't mean it was the same for everyone else.

If it wasn't a problem why the change then? Thier aren't countless threads on this very site about ninja looting?

[thunderdragon2]

so because the game doesn't do what you want, when you want it. You think it's okay to damage the game for all other players?

If you can't find or form a group, that's bad for you. But is forcing people to cater to you a good deal?
How would you like it, if they removed personal loot from pugs and only made it for guilds?

Always think about a problem, as if it affected you. If you still are okay with the change, fine. If not, well welcome to other peoples life.

tbh, i would care if they made pl game wide why are know ninjas allowed to even make their own grps? also its not my fault that it was ingraned into peoples head that ML=ml then pl now is it?

also you should note that i didn't ask for this change either but i still think its better.

[Jewsco]

Again, make your own group, get friends, already said that


also your logic is fucked up, so all raid leaders are scumbags but the same hunter gona give that loot away and not try to scam gold from you for it or just straight sell it. Also the hunter maybe should get a shot of it for breathing i guess, what kind if logic is this?

if you can not handle humans, stop playing mmos

Let's see where you are wrong shall we?
Can't trade gold cross server right so how much selling will be going on?
At least if sold one can have a shot to bid on it too right? Not so much if reserved can they?
Maybe I raid lead my guilds raids and don't feel like doing it if pugging on alts or just trying to get ahead of my raid team for some strategies to bring back to them.
Can't you just raid with a guild and use master looter just as easily too then?
Why is it always the lame start your own raid?
Maybe you need to be able to deal with humans.
Why can't you raid with a guild?
See that arguement works both ways.
The overall point is that is was enough of a problem to make blizz change this and that is a fact.

[Deleted]

If it wasn't a problem why the change then? Thier aren't countless threads on this very site about ninja looting?

see even if there were 250 threads about it, how many raids are there every fucking night?

So 250 ninjalooters in a sea of 10000 raids, that's 0.025% of all raids have a ninjalooting problem. Even at 1%, thats a laughable excuse for removing it at best.

I would see the point if it were 40%+ of all raids, but then NOBODY WOULD FUCKING RUN PUGS WITH ML in the first place!

[Jewsco]

Their also countless thread about mhytic gear dropping in lfr or remove all raids. Must be good ideas


Also dafaq are you talking about with why change it when it wasnt a problem? are playing wow since yesterday? blizzard changing shit that is not broken, and then change it BACK since decades. What kind of stupid reasoning is that

So you are saying ml wasn't a problem that has only gotten worse over the years and was a real problem this expansion?
Nice try