I Had More Spells at Level 60.....

[Anaphaze]

I remember my vanilla rotation to this day, keep CoS/CoE up then spam shadowbolt, because I wasn't allowed to cast my dots because of the debuff limit on mobs/bosses. Ah the life of the 2.5 button rotation, SB, life tap, and CoS/CoE.

I use just about every ability I have now, compared to vanilla/BC/Wrath were ~50% of my skills weren't touched (looking at things like curse of weakness, death coil before the warlock rework patch, my dots when raiding, fire/the other stone that required soul stones, etc).

I really wish they made a vanilla server already so all of these whiny children could leave.

What about those of us who realize vanilla was dumb and STILL think the prune was overdone? I'm not a "whiny child" and I won't leave for a vanilla server. Insulting people with differing opinions and calling them children is rather... Trumpish, don't you think?

[Gungnir]

Regarding the "Better to have 2 pages where you use 90% of the abilities than 4 pages where you use 10%" argument, I think it is a bit flawed.

Your average joe PvPer, and I am talking about every aspect of PvP now but WPvP and BG's moreso, would use the standard few button rotation and be done with that.
Those who on the other hand got really good and wanted to be able to get an edge in each encounter started learning how to use those niche abilities to their advantage.

Just watch through any Vurtne vid or Bebep from the WotLK era and you'll see what I mean.
I don't really have a stance on the prune but I do miss having niche abilities that could pull me out of sticky situations when used correctly.



Also, abilities like Far Sight and the old Eyes of the Beast were spells added for flavour and to differentiate. Contrary to popular belief, this game DID start out as an MMORPG.

[Jensxo]

so you mean in bc, when warlocks pressed shadowbolt....? and.... yeah...

- - - Updated - - -



you have innervate back
you still have sunfire and moonfire
you still have dash
you still have pounce and maim
you still have healing touch
you still have rejuve
you still have revive
you still have rake


so you seem to be complaining about stuff that you are completly stupid and havent even looked
examples, simply go to wowheads talent caluclator and you will find you have most of the spells you complain are "gone"
and if their not talents, they are default in the right side there, healing touch, sunfire, moonfire, remove corruption, innervate, prowl

You can't be that dumb...I had all those spells in MoP regardless of what i specced into...In Legion i once again have to choose between offhealing and cat form stun? Are you kidding me? That's not fun at all...i want my utility back.

[lightofdawn]

you had two pages of useful stuff as opposed to 3 pages now in most cases, and in addition you had another page or so of useless garbage that you barely used.

[FelPlague]

You can't be that dumb...I had all those spells in MoP regardless of what i specced into...In Legion i once again have to choose between offhealing and cat form stun? Are you kidding me? That's not fun at all...i want my utility back.

you said it was gone, not that they were put onto your tree

[Jensxo]

why do you need 3 stuns?

Why do melee need multiple outs/gap closers?
Why are there still so many immunities to CC in the game DESPITE the fact that CC has been severely toned downed since mop...

Anyone who still thinks there is a lot of CC in the game is just plain awful at the game and is the reason why WoD arena turned out terribly.

If you reduce CC you need to reduce ways to get out of CC
If you reduce gap openers you need to reduce gap closers

It's simple stuff.

Also....People liked MoP PvP a lot more than WoD PvP. It's a general consensus that MoP arena, although it had flaws was actually quite fun.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

On my demonology warlock: I am really missing instant cast stuff like more dots, shadowflame, hand of guldan, the instant cast spamable spell and all the demonology form spells. Also severely missing teleport and leap for mobility... No longer playing demonology, and I doubt there wont be any QoL changes to that spec.

Shadowflame (albeit a different incarnation) is a level 15 talent which is instant cast. Another option in that tier, shadowy inspiration, makes empowerment make your next shadowbolt instant cast, and you cast empowerment a lot. Teleport is in the talent tree. Demo isn't really that bad.

[Zoneseek]

what makes them seem angry, the fact that they are bothering to reply to you in the first place? or the fact that they actually write arguments in reply to your "lol you probably suck at x y z games hehe" stupidity?

the post just sounds like rage. yours doesn't theirs did. if someones going to rage out im just going to reply with stupidity. its all good broski

[Deleted]

Personally I find it more interesting having more complex and difficult raids where you have to pay your utmost attention on the mechanics of the fight and easier rotations instead of having very complicated rotations with many unnecessary and situational spells and having to tunnel vision on your action bar instead of the fight. The classes in FFXIV have a lot of complexity in terms of rotations and skills due to positionals and many other factors, but the raids in that game are a bit lame in the sense that they do not offer enough innovative mechanics (with a few exceptions) as in WoW. It is difficult to elaborate more on that because you most likely haven't played FFXIV before. But the point is that more does not equal better. Trust me.

[Deleted]

More mechanics on bosses also not equals good game design tho so that work both ways

I am sorry if I was not clear enough with the point I tried to make. I was not talking about more mechanics in a quantitative sense. I was talking about the complexity of these mechanics.

[Icoblablubb]

60 skills back then were 90% were not used or where just gimmick skills u used once or twice a day .. we may lost lets say 5 tabs in spellbook but we literally use the same amount of skills like back then .. you guys just keep looking for things to hate without opening your mind ..ya Vanilla was great and all great Nostalgia when i think back then but classes were not rly great either i mean hell u may had like 4-5 bars filled but u only needed like 2 with everything important and don't come with oh today Rotation is so simple 2-3 buttons .. did u had any more in Vanilla? Hunter was literally Aimed , SS , Arcane don't even wanna mention mages .. but no one thinks about that

[glowpipe]

You had ranks on every spell. Ofcourse you had more spells at lvl 60. The "pruning" is a good thing. Now we got the important abilites and all the clutter 97% of the players didnt even have on the action bar is gone. Most classes ive played have more or less the exact same amount of skills in their rotation after 7.0. BM hunter is more or less the only one that got fucked.

[Deleted]

But they going this path in wow now . Not that im saying they are not more complex mechanics but from tier to tier the mechanis ramp up more. i mean how many on mhytic archimonde are new and complex? not that much tbh. The difficulty comes from piling up the different mechanics


i would be glad if they would find a middle ground, especially when often fights are so tight tuned in the begining that you are gonna stacking class and such shit which is only bad game design tbh.

Well, keep in mind that nowadays there are so many addons that tell you what to do or what to avoid and these is a huge contributing factor to the diminished complexity of many fights in raids in WoW. Not to mention the fact that top raiding guilds have access to beta version of these raids so they know pretty much what to expect (except the bonus phases they add to the bosses). In FFXIV or in other mmo-rpg games this is not the case.

[shaunika123]

The examples you provide make perfect sense, I agree with you. However, if you're losing CC or utility in pvp, which was the case with WOD and now Legion, the game is less complex, requires less skill and thought and is pretty fucking boring.

yes however we can all agree that there was too much CC in the game and they're way too accessible

a druid and a hunter with the right coordination could stop a healer from healing someone for like forever

RMD was basically CCing 2 people at the same time whilst killing the 3rd

the game isnt fun when you cant play your character

[Deleted]

Im aware of it, it doesnt help with the issue tho



instead this is even worse, as you say the dev make boss encounters stacked up with mechanics because they know you have addons and guides so new players have almost no chance to cope with that shit.


Like i say they should be something done about. The spectral creep is going on with this since a couple of expansions, that resulting in prunes like this.

I think this is getting a bit off-topic compared to the initial point I tried to make: People complain about less spells and simple rotations here in WoW but the fact still remains that only a small number of the player-base is really good with their classes and can bring out maximum potential DPS (if we are talking about the DPS classes specifically).
While in FFXIV you have very complex rotations and bigger quantity of spells and people complain about that when the fact still remains the same: The majority is bad and they never reach the full DPS potential.

To sum up, players will always complain about skills and rotations no matter what you do. This is why I personally believe that shifting the focus more on creating more complex fights that are really challenging for the player-base (both casual and hardcore) irrespective of how easy or hard your rotation is the way to go. But then again that's my opinion so I am sure that many people will disagree.

[ridinghorse]

I think this is getting a bit off-topic compared to the initial point I tried to make: People complain about less spells and simple rotations here in WoW but the fact still remains that only a small number of the player-base is really good with their classes and can bring out maximum potential DPS (if we are talking about the DPS classes specifically).
While in FFXIV you have very complex rotations and bigger quantity of spells and people complain about that when the fact still remains the same: The majority is bad and they never reach the full DPS potential.

To sum up, players will always complain about skills and rotations no matter what you do. This is why I personally believe that shifting the focus more on creating more complex fights that are really challenging for the player-base (both casual and hardcore) irrespective of how easy or hard your rotation is the way to go. But then again that's my opinion so I am sure that many people will disagree.

Most games nowadays go this path, like guild wars 2, where controllable characters have a small, but versatile repertoire so it ends up that each spell have multiple ways of being used, and the result is it not only is easier to balance, but still provides meaningful gameplay.

[Demithio]

Blizzard should have kept the pruning at the Cataclysm level. We still had a talent tree but pruned down to be more manageable without turning into the watered down mess it is now. As usual they have no sense of balance.

[Deleted]

Playing Brewmaster, there's basically nothing there now. A few attack spells some with lenghty CD and barely any defensive CD's. I hate to use the word but the class has been dumbed down to an extreme extent. CD management seems gone almost entirely, many defensive mechanics are simply gone and so on and on.

[Anaphaze]

Again, the "just spec into the active abilities in the talent tree" argument is still silly. some (most, for some classes) are balanced so poorly that they're not viable or significantly lower in power than the passives next to it. Saying "well you can have more abilities" doesn't mean we will in any competitive environment.

[Kahmal]

Damn this thread got massive....mb.

I actually did some PvP as Arms on my Warrior and despite missing many abilities, it was a blast. Sure I'm missing spells, but the ones I have really seem to matter. In PvP i don't feel gimped at all.

PvE though despite normally having a generic rotation the fact that I'm missing some nuance things that allowed me to stand out kind of sucks. But I think it'll be fine. I think these changes are great for PvP at least, they stripped classes to what they should be and not capable of being able to do everything to an extent.

I actually like that they got rid of so much damn self healing.