Ret Paladin 7.0.3 DPS comparison

[Deleted]

We're talking about two entirely different fucking things. I am not making any kind of a statement about balance at 110. I am not saying we will be better. I am not saying we will be worse. I am not saying we will be the same. I am saying that currently the community at large has absolutely no fucking idea how we will perform at 110 one way or another.

What I´m talking about is that ret is not suited for any kind of progress raiding, we aren´t now (ok now is not the time someone should progress but still if it were we would be benched) and we won´t be at 110 and this for the same reason

Legendaries are absolutely something that you should, "put your hopes on". Anyone that's remotely competitive will have every legendary, probably before Nighthold. Legendaries follow deterministic RNG.

It is an increasing chance abut a chance nonetheless. There are people who can´t win a dice roll to save their life. And in the end it is a dice roll. Entering the broken isle it might be 100000000000000:1 chance to get a legendary and every level a 0 is scraped. And with each passing week they increase your chance to get a legendary by 10% after reaching cap there will be players who won´t have a legendary facing bosses 4 month in the addon. And now let´s talk about getting the correct legendary. The most important legendaries for us are the boots. lets say you get the cloak first. It´s more DPS on paper but in a scenario were you actually have to move you will wish for the boots. Or lets say you hae cloak, ring and boots. As a ret you will have to use the non DPS increase were as the warlock can run around with 2 DPS pieces.
Were is the balance in this?

For Dresaron and Dargrul I don't understand how you can't maintain 100% uptime, you'll have to explain that one to me. For Serpentrix I don't have 100% uptime, but neither does any other melee. Obviously bosses with forced downtime will cause a loss in damage. I can pull 300k+ on bosses with little-no downtime though fairly easily.

So you simply ignore ignore his AE? You know you are supposed to hid behind this stone thingies. Try to look around the next time you are there and not just recount.

[Neldarie]

Laurcus is an idiot who is also full of shit = 1. And ye 2 = "rankings" of current HFC mean absolutely nothing for severals reasons: 1) zergfests 2) one of the best class trinkets in game 3) the best 4set in game 4) might you cast on others actually adds on top of your damage in warcraftlogs which I thought they said wouldn't be a thing. All of those mislead you and won't ever tell you the reallity of where retribution actually stands. Quit abusing crusade stack bug, unequip your overpowered shit and actually run some real tests.

[Christhammer]

Haha, that chart made me laugh. So wrong

A correct top 3 would be (atleast on the beta):

1. Fire Mage
2. Assassination Rogue
3. BM Hunter

Ret is actually doing pretty well in Mythic + dungeons. It's boring to play, but the damage is not bad (i would personally not play it though).

[Morally Grey Storm]

Ret is actually doing pretty well in Mythic + dungeons. It's boring to play, but the damage is not bad (i would personally not play it though).

so being middle of the pack is "pretty well" ?
At least back then we had utility to justify bringing Ret.
Now what?

[Myspeld]

There's no such thing as padding in HFC. Kids these days don't even know what padding is. Back in my day, padding was AoEing infinite HP adds. If having high single target is "padding" then fuck me dead, I'm a padder. Dps is as high as it is in mythic HFC because kill times are so low. Call it padding if you must, but that's the environment we raid in atm.

You could argue that ret's dps is being inflated by those short kill times and that the cracks will start showing in Legion when fight times are longer, but ret at 110 is very different from ret at 100 anyway, and it's difficult to say without seeing actual good sim numbers where we'll stand after losing 4PT18 and gaining Ashbringer plus legendaries.

>There's no such thing as padding in HFC.

Are you retarded? Pop cooldowns and get a perfect rotation and die to a mechanic so your DPS stays high. Look at the fucking duration of the rank 1 ret in HFC, it was 18 seconds.

[Neldarie]

Haha, that chart made me laugh. So wrong

A correct top 3 would be (atleast on the beta):

1. Fire Mage
2. Assassination Rogue
3. BM Hunter

Ret is actually doing pretty well in Mythic + dungeons. It's boring to play, but the damage is not bad (i would personally not play it though).

Pretty sure you failed at reading the topic of the thread as it is about 7.0.3 and not mythic+ shit AKA legion.

[Myspeld]

so being middle of the pack is "pretty well" ?
At least back then we had utility to justify bringing Ret.
Now what?

>At least back then we had utility to justify bringing Ret.

Lay on Hands, Blessing of Protection, Blessing of Freedom, Cleanse Toxins, Flash of Light, and 3 Greater Blessings are all utility, ret utility now is better than it was in WoD. And there is even more utility you can take from talents. Ret needs a DPS buff and we will be fine.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Lay on Hands, Blessing of Protection, Blessing of Freedom

these are indeed utility spells, albeit available to other Paladin specs, with lower cooldowns to boot.
These do not jsutify bringing Ret. At all.

Cleanse Toxins, Flash of Light

Now this is where it gets funny
Did you just really count a hardcasted, incredibly expensive heal as an utility?

And cleanse? Seriously?
Are you that desperate?)

and 3 Greater Blessings are

a fething disgrace .
They are not utility in the slightest.
It's pre-pull fire and forget buff.
Negliggible at that, yet crucial for optimal Ret DPS.
You have no say in which GBlessing to utilize.
You either put 3 Mights, or gtfo from raid.
Such utility.

And there is even more utility you can take from talents

such as..?

Ret needs a DPS buff and we will be fine.

Yes it does.
And a mobility buff.

[Camaris]

That first chart may be bullshit, but so are the logs posted immediately afterwards.

[Deleted]

Utilise the ''retribution'' passive, activate SoV prepull, and either take a melee hit or soak some mechanic like barrage is some i can think of, ignoring movement stuff like fel surges, which obviously is adjusting to our lack of movement everyone complains about, but i personally feel fine about, at least in hfc. Theres more like going aoe setup even tho youd have plenty, but you can yolosnipe that 15 stack crusade chain into imps with DH + DS <3. theres plenty if you are creative enough.


But why, does that mean playing in top level, achieving fast killtimes and probably having the most understanding about the class is innacurate data? I could argue that some of top parses are cheesy, but i managed rank 10 mannoroth simply because of a few lucky proccs and very fast killtime, does that mean i did everything to skew the numbers to inaccuretly show the strenght of ret? 95-99th perc is where it matters and has the most valuable data, made by the obviously better players, if you want to base statistics around the ''average'' or ''medicore'' player, fine, but it is relevant for such players only, and when valuing a specs power, id imagine one would want to see the maximum potential of it displayed, as noxxic shows with some ilvl 660 rankings w/o any tiers and rings and whatnot, if you just finished killing the big scary rare in tanaan, that statistic might be somewhat relavnt to you, altho i doubt its worth anything anyway.

This thread is, simply put, misleading at best.

Do you raid in a top guild that aims at the top 10 ranks? Those values are mostly unrealistic and are resorted to with the help of a whole guild to that same goal.
I am not gonna waste my time debating this anymore with people. If you can't understand why these values are irrelevant and unrealistic, then by all means, go live in your dream world. I don't care.



Also, everyone is going "oh its noxxic"derp derp.

Yeah its noxxic, but we don't know what these charts refer to. They can be correct, they can be incorrect. We don't know what they refer to, wich gear level, wich set bonuses, etc.

[Deleted]

>At least back then we had utility to justify bringing Ret.

Lay on Hands, Blessing of Protection, Blessing of Freedom, Cleanse Toxins, Flash of Light, and 3 Greater Blessings are all utility, ret utility now is better than it was in WoD. And there is even more utility you can take from talents. Ret needs a DPS buff and we will be fine.

not sure if troll or just delusional was my thought
@Storm the Sorrow thank you for commenting on this already. would have made me cry to do so.

Yeah its noxxic, but we don't know what these charts refer to. They can be correct, they can be incorrect. We don't know what they refer to, wich gear level, wich set bonuses, etc.

if they are not total shit I would guess heavy movement simulations

[Neldarie]

Or just ilvl 705 (if ya bothered to check it out on google) so without any gamebreaking things like rings/sets/trinkets and prolly 5minute duration patchwerks.

[Deleted]

Or just ilvl 705 (if ya bothered to check it out on google) so without any gamebreaking things like rings/sets/trinkets and prolly 5minute duration patchwerks.

so not shit at all but raw power. conclusion is up to each individual. thanks for checking nonetheless

would like to see this chart based on simcraft simulations

[OrcsRLame]

What I´m talking about is that ret is not suited for any kind of progress raiding, we aren´t now (ok now is not the time someone should progress but still if it were we would be benched) and we won´t be at 110 and this for the same reason



It is an increasing chance abut a chance nonetheless. There are people who can´t win a dice roll to save their life. And in the end it is a dice roll. Entering the broken isle it might be 100000000000000:1 chance to get a legendary and every level a 0 is scraped. And with each passing week they increase your chance to get a legendary by 10% after reaching cap there will be players who won´t have a legendary facing bosses 4 month in the addon. And now let´s talk about getting the correct legendary. The most important legendaries for us are the boots. lets say you get the cloak first. It´s more DPS on paper but in a scenario were you actually have to move you will wish for the boots. Or lets say you hae cloak, ring and boots. As a ret you will have to use the non DPS increase were as the warlock can run around with 2 DPS pieces.
Were is the balance in this?



So you simply ignore ignore his AE? You know you are supposed to hid behind this stone thingies. Try to look around the next time you are there and not just recount.

First off, a good tank can position Dargrul such that you can melee him while the pillars block LoS for the lava waves. This is a necessary tactic for pushing high mythic+. Secondly, in heroic dungeons I bubble the first lava waves, and I've never seen a second.

If ret is not suited for any kind of progression raiding, I would argue that the mobility is a fairly tiny factor compared to our lack of a cheat death, AoE grip, and the huge cost of speccing for good AoE damage. I'd also like to point out though that since the patch Serenity has added a ret paladin to their roster, meaning they're at least considering the idea of using one for progression. If ret is good enough for Serenity it's good enough for your regular mythic guild that isn't competing for a world top 10 spot.

As for the legendaries, I'm not even going to respond to your made up math. Legendaries follow deterministic RNG. What that means, is that every time you don't get a legendary, your odds of getting one goes up. It's not a time gate that will get nerfed eventually, it's a grind. I'm also not going to comment on how strong our legendaries are relative to warlocks, because despite what some people in this thread are saying about me, I don't talk out my ass, and I don't know how strong our legendaries are relative to other classes and their legendaries.

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>There's no such thing as padding in HFC.

Are you retarded? Pop cooldowns and get a perfect rotation and die to a mechanic so your DPS stays high. Look at the fucking duration of the rank 1 ret in HFC, it was 18 seconds.

Calls me a retard with 4Chan green text formatting, doesn't know how logs work. That's rich.

The rank 1 logs are 18 seconds because the boss dies with the first ring explosion. WCL works off total damage done, not dps. If you die 18 seconds into a 2 minute fight your rank will be shit, because it takes your damage done and divides it by the fight time. No one died in that Fel Lord log I mentioned; they just had the dps to kill the boss in 18 seconds.

And that's not padding. That's just doing high damage. Padding is doing shit like AoEing the adds on T11 Nefarian; the adds that had more health than the boss that would come back to life anyway if you managed to kill them. The only real instance of padding we had in WoD was the elemental adds on Blast Furnace. AoEing that shit was padding.

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Laurcus is an idiot who is also full of shit = 1. And ye 2 = "rankings" of current HFC mean absolutely nothing for severals reasons: 1) zergfests 2) one of the best class trinkets in game 3) the best 4set in game 4) might you cast on others actually adds on top of your damage in warcraftlogs which I thought they said wouldn't be a thing. All of those mislead you and won't ever tell you the reallity of where retribution actually stands. Quit abusing crusade stack bug, unequip your overpowered shit and actually run some real tests.

Yep, I'm an idiot when you're the one that can't English.

If you paid the slightest bit of attention to what I've been saying, I've said repeatedly that level 100 balance is irrelevant. If anything is misleading, it's the people saying that we're going to be shit in Legion without even knowing how much dps we do relative to other classes. I'd be all for bitching up a storm, if anyone actually had proof that we suck. How much more damage does ret need to be brought to world first mythic Gul'dan? 1%? 10%? 20%? 50%? 210%? 1000%? Graham's Number%? Until you can answer that question with facts, you have no right to complain about class balance.

And for the record, Blizzard has said over and over and over again that Might is supposed to credit the paladin that buffed it, not the buffed player. Also, what Crusade stack bug?

[Morally Grey Storm]

If anything is misleading, it's the people saying that we're going to be shit in Legion

not the other way around?

I am fairly certain it's the trigger happy people who are to blame

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
That we'll be sought after spec? That our dps at least once in a fething decade won't be characterized as "middle of tha pack" ?

I'd be all for bitching up a storm, if anyone actually had proof that we suck.

then why don't you try and PvP , then?)
I know you stated time and time again you don't care about PvP, well, here is your proof, it's called "Ret PvP"

[Deleted]

First off, a good tank can position Dargrul such that you can melee him while the pillars block LoS for the lava waves. This is a necessary tactic for pushing high mythic+. Secondly, in heroic dungeons I bubble the first lava waves, and I've never seen a second.

That one goes straight to you. But can we agree that we are fucked when we have to move in any kind of fight if it is further than 10 yards.

If ret is not suited for any kind of progression raiding, I would argue that the mobility is a fairly tiny factor compared to our lack of a cheat death, AoE grip, and the huge cost of speccing for good AoE damage. I'd also like to point out though that since the patch Serenity has added a ret paladin to their roster, meaning they're at least considering the idea of using one for progression. If ret is good enough for Serenity it's good enough for your regular mythic guild that isn't competing for a world top 10 spot.

cheat death mechanics can be covered by rogues much better than by rets. Movement is one of the fist things you consider when composing your raid. Why they added a et to the rootster I have no idea. Bad joke? Cheese mechanics with with equolicancer -> pump the ret full with Stam and make sure he has the SoV bracers equipt let him drop to 1 HP+ wings = bye bye add.

As for the legendaries, I'm not even going to respond to your made up math. Legendaries follow deterministic RNG. What that means, is that every time you don't get a legendary, your odds of getting one goes up. It's not a time gate that will get nerfed eventually, it's a grind. I'm also not going to comment on how strong our legendaries are relative to warlocks, because despite what some people in this thread are saying about me, I don't talk out my ass, and I don't know how strong our legendaries are relative to other classes and their legendaries.

Oh the math is pure shit. Never claimed something to be right. And yes the chances get better with every try but how long does it take to have 1:1 chance when the drop is finally guaranteed? Is it likely that I will take you that long? No it´s not. But some poor sod will have to suffer that long and do you wan´t to be the one not allowed into any form of semi progress raids?

[OrcsRLame]

That one goes straight to you. But can we agree that we are fucked when we have to move in any kind of fight if it is further than 10 yards.



cheat death mechanics can be covered by rogues much better than by rets. Movement is one of the fist things you consider when composing your raid. Why they added a et to the rootster I have no idea. Bad joke? Cheese mechanics with with equolicancer -> pump the ret full with Stam and make sure he has the SoV bracers equipt let him drop to 1 HP+ wings = bye bye add.



Oh the math is pure shit. Never claimed something to be right. And yes the chances get better with every try but how long does it take to have 1:1 chance when the drop is finally guaranteed? Is it likely that I will take you that long? No it´s not. But some poor sod will have to suffer that long and do you wan´t to be the one not allowed into any form of semi progress raids?

I will say that I think rogues are overpowered in PvE. They have amazingly powerful personals, a fair bit of utility and excellent mobility. If you look at the rest of the classes, there's usually a trade off between mobility, utility, and personals. Warriors for example have good utility, good mobility, but shitty personals and increased damage taken. Ret had good utility, excellent personals and shitty mobility. Rogues are the only melee, (only dps?) that are excellent in every area. That means if their dps is competitive, they will be stacked by any guild that is serious about being competitive. I'm reasonably confidant, (like 75%) that if Legion were to launch right this second, we would see 3-5 rogues on the mythic Xavius world first. That's not an issue with ret though so much as it is an issue with rogues. I'd be fine with rogues having good mobility, personals and utility, if they were dead last in damage. I somehow doubt that will be the case though, given that they have 3 dps specs it's incredibly likely that one of them will be in the upper half of the bracket.

Concerning legendaries; maybe I'll be proven wrong on that count, maybe I will not. I'm not too worried atm though, partially because I plan to play like 16 hours a day until I have all my legendaries and 3 maxed out artifacts, but whatever.

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not the other way around?

I am fairly certain it's the trigger happy people who are to blame

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
That we'll be sought after spec? That our dps at least once in a fething decade won't be characterized as "middle of tha pack" ?



then why don't you try and PvP , then?)
I know you stated time and time again you don't care about PvP, well, here is your proof, it's called "Ret PvP"

I don't have any evidence for us being good or bad in pve. This entire thread I've been saying, "We're fine in HFC and we don't have actual numbers for 110 yet. Maybe put down the pitchforks until simcraft is done." And for that I was called an idiot and a retard.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I don't have any evidence for us being good or bad in pve. This entire thread I've been saying, "We're fine in HFC and we don't have actual numbers for 110 yet. Maybe put down the pitchforks until simcraft is done." And for that I was called an idiot and a retard.

Well, it's your choice to play victim and become offended

Don't.

[Sanct]

They're fine in HFC and we don't have actual numbers for 110 yet. Maybe put down the pitchforks until simcraft is done.

[Morally Grey Storm]

They're fine in HFC and we don't have actual numbers for 110 yet. Maybe put down the pitchforks until simcraft is done.

No.
It's clear as day our mobility is not sufficient .
it's clear as day GBlessings are fail.
It's clear as day damage window which is most often viewed as a nuicance and is ignored through copious mounts of haste is fail just as well.

Welcome to FaiLegion.