So...what's the deal with arcane magic?

[Magical Mudcrab]

Ultimately everything is the form of the same source, a variation of light. In the very beginning there was only light and then came the void. Literally everything is a combination of the two to varying degrees, whether it is fel, life ,death, elemental, arcane etc.

I don't know if that's a fair description or not. From what I gathered from Chronicles, the Light did not create Shadow. Rather, the Shadow is the absence of Light. I wouldn't consider Shadow a form of the Light anymore I would consider a dark room as an illuminated room.


"The ocean of Light was dynamic and ever shifting. Yet as it expanded, some of its energies faded and dimmed, leaving behind pockets of cold nothingness. From this absence of Light in these spaces, a new power coalesced and came to be.

This power was the Void, a dark and vampiric force driven to devour all energy, to twist creation inward to feed upon itself. The Void quickly grew and spread its influence, moving against the flowing waves of Light. The mounting tension between these two opposing yet inseparable energies eventually ignited a series of catastrophic explosions, rupturing the fabric of creating and birthing a new realm into existence.

In that moment, the physical universe was born."

I also wouldn't consider the other magical forces a form of Light, either. They seem to be their own separate types of magic that are resultant from the creation of the physical universe. However, I would be remiss to regard two types of magic that I believe to be direct results of the Light itself: Life and Death. It is specifically stated that the shards of Light that entered the physical universe were the spark of life on many worlds. Death would be an incidental creation that was created at the same time as Life.

"The cataclysmic birth of the cosmos also flung shards of Light throughout reality. These shards suffused the matter of myriad worlds with the spark of life, giving rise to creatures of wondrous and terrible diversity."

[orgonutil]

"Chronicle" are official history now and it alters some things that we already know. The use of arcane magic atract the demons becouse arcane magic are the energy of the titans, since the well of eternety is blood of Azeroth, and the use of the arcane magic made possible to legion to track where azeroth is

[Magical Mudcrab]

Arcane magic *in the hands of the Titans* is the language of Order is how I tend to see it, but in the hands of mortals it can be bent to other ends. Any creative force can be bent to disorder or chaos - rampant growth, overwhelming forces, the imposition of stasis on objects that should not be restrained. The Arcane is the primary force that the Titans used to bring Order to the universe, and in that it stands opposed to Fel which can only mutate, corrupt, and destroy as it has no higher calling or intended purpose.

I respectfully disagree.
From what we can see, any magic can be used to sew disorder or create order depending on whose hands the magic is wielded by.
A few Examples:
Holy: The Naaru use their power to fight for Order, whereas the Scarlet Crusade uses the Light to purge any who they deem as "corrupt".
Fel: Warlocks of the Alliance and Horde use Fel magic to fight the enemies of Azeroth and (gennerally) fight to resist the temptations of more power, whereas the Burning Legion uses Fel magic to corrupt and destroy anything they can.
Necromancy: Bolvar uses Necromantic magics to create order by halting the undead and keeping them in line, whereas the necromancers who were once part of the Cult of the Damned would happily use their magics which would persistently blight the land.

I think it magic would be best regarded as naturally being in a state that would compliment their place on the chart provided in Chronicles. However, I would say that the addition of the "human" element, as it were, is what determines how the magic is perceived; magic can be used for any purpose, but it's natural state is how it is indicated on the chart.

[Aucald]

I respectfully disagree.
From what we can see, any magic can be used to sew disorder or create order depending on whose hands the magic is wielded by.
A few Examples:
Holy: The Naaru use their power to fight for Order, whereas the Scarlet Crusade uses the Light to purge any who they deem as "corrupt".
Fel: Warlocks of the Alliance and Horde use Fel magic to fight the enemies of Azeroth and (gennerally) fight to resist the temptations of more power, whereas the Burning Legion uses Fel magic to corrupt and destroy anything they can.
Necromancy: Bolvar uses Necromantic magics to create order by halting the undead and keeping them in line, whereas the necromancers who were once part of the Cult of the Damned would happily use their magics which would persistently blight the land.

I think it magic would be best regarded as naturally being in a state that would compliment their place on the chart provided in Chronicles. However, I would say that the addition of the "human" element, as it were, is what determines how the magic is perceived; magic can be used for any purpose, but it's natural state is how it is indicated on the chart.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing - you seem to pretty much be saying much the same as I did. Titan intent is general beneficent, devoted to order, and non-destructive given that the Titans (except for Sargeras) are pretty much Order personified. Mortal intent, however, is more wide-ranging and in mortal hands the Arcane can be just as deadly or destructive as Fel, Light, Shadow, or Elemental magic.

[Aucald]

Mortals in generel seem to be a combination of all the other "elements" in some degree or other. So Order,Chaos, Light, Shadow, Life, Undead are all represented in the "mortal" sphere... probably because they are in the middle of all the other segments.

To me arcane being in "order" is more that you need to know the right formula to cast arcane spells (be it math, or rune magic, etc). Holy, and Shadow are both faith/will based.

And Fel is chaotic/corrupted life based (life fuels it, but is also corrupted by it... life is like its catalyst).

I tend to think of Arcane as the magical form of mathematics - rigid and hierarchical, exacting and somewhat pedantic in application. Still, bent to a particular focus, mathematics (like the Arcane) can lead to awesome and terrible things.

[Tenjen]

Yes it does. Demons are from an astral coalition of spiritual energies that is separate from the physical universe. Do even understand the meaning of the terms astral and spiritual? Seems like you don't.

Dude, you just have this headcanon that only exists in your own mind and does not apply to the lore or the game. Astral and spiritual =/- undead. Undeath refers to something else entirely.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

you are ignoring facts. therefore you are using headcanon

There is a flaw in your claim. I'm not ignoring facts, which means I'm not using headcanon

That's funny, because this whole conversation started with you saying arcane energy doesn't come from the nether.

Actually, I started out stating that the primal force of chaos (fel) would be from the nether if the nether is a place of chaos and that arcane wouldn't.

You're even contradicting yourself now.

Actually, what I'm doing is making fun of how ridiculous you and Sean Copeland are by presenting one canon fact then presenting a canon fact that conflicts with (or contradicts) it. You know that arcane, the language of order, wouldn't come from the nether because the nether is a place of chaos AS PER CANON. In no sense is arcane the language of order if it's from a place of chaos and in no sense would arcane mages be "nethermancers" if arcane is not from the nether. You're arguing pointlessly and trying to seek answers to questions that you should already have.

- - - Updated - - -

Dude, you just have this headcanon that only exists in your own mind

It's actually you who have headcanon.

Astral and spiritual =/- undead.

ROFLOL. You clearly don't know what the term astral and spiritual means. What's the next thing you're going to claim? That disembodied spirits aren't undead? Oh, given that you've claimed astral and spiritual =/- undead, I wouldn't be surprised.

Here's a lesson on what demons are because they're from an astral dimension composed of spiritual energies that is seperate from the physical universe.

The Twisting Nether is an astral dimension that lies in parallel with the Great Dark Beyond. The forces of Light and Void bleed together at the boundaries of the Twisting Nether, engulfing this realm in perpetual strife. At times, the volatile magics that pervade the Twisting Nether intrude upon the physical universe, warping reality beyond measure.

Excerpt From: Entertainment, Blizzard. “World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1.” Dark Horse Books, 2016-03-15. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.

astral definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astral

: of or relating to the stars
: involving a person's spirit rather than the body

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/spiritual

of, relating to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal

of or relating to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature

Demons are from an astral dimension composed of spiritual energies that is seprarate from the physical universe = Demons are astral/non-physical/spiritual entities = Demons are disembodied spirits = Demons are undead = You're just too dumb to realize that entities from an astral dimension composed of unstable spiritual energies can't be living in any sense of the term. Too dumb to realize that disembodied spirits (e.g. banshees) are undead, which is most likely why you will present a pointless argument to me in a failed attempt to convince me that demons aren't undead despite being from an astral dimension separate from the physical universe.

[Deleted]

But it's not just things people have said. It's actual tangible things seen in the game and the surrounding stories. How can arcane magic be from the nether and be "the language of order"? How can it be so addictive and corrupting to the highborne? Why are demons attracted to it?

It's power,
Power is addictive, corrupting and Demons are attracted to it.

The only reason why demons get attracted to Arcane Magic and not druidic magic and so on is that Arcane Magic draws from the Twisting Nether and demons can feel that or something.

[Florena]

Demon souls are anchored un the nether and go back there when killed until they can generate a nrw body but they're not incorporeal creatures by default. Nor is fel magic exclusive to them.

[FelPlague]

Hey guys, I'm a major lore-nerd and mage-fanatic and I've been pretty confused / concerned with some of the changes introduced in Warcraft: Chronicle.

- First off, how exactly is arcane magic an expression of "order"? It's always been portrayed as a chaotic, addicting, and mutagenic force from the Twisting Nether. Even wowpedia seems to contradict itself within the first paragraph (http://wow.gamepedia.com/Arcane), despite being sourced and verified. It states that arcane is "the language of order" but also states that it is "chaotic in nature" and that mages use it to "exploit the instability of the universe".

The War of the Ancients began in part because of the use of arcane magic. Illidan was seduced by the corrupting forces of arcane magic. The Legion was attracted to Azeroth because of its denizens use of arcane magic. The Order of Tirisfal was founded after humans saw firsthand the consequences of unchecked arcane magic.

Even as recently as cataclysm, the "laws of magic" are still regarded as canon, describing it as an addicting, corrupting force that attracts demons. How can this be if arcane is "the language of order" in the universe?

- In a similar vein, is there still a relationship between arcane magic and fel magic? Originally, fel magic was described as arcane magic at its most pure. Overtime, this changed a bit and it was described as arcane magic at its most corrupt and destructive. Now, neither of these things seem to be the case. If arcane magic is from the Twisting Nether, and if demons are so attracted to it, is there really no relationship between the two?

- Is there still a relationship between arcane magic and necromancy? This has been part of the canon since at least Warcraft III, and as recently as Wrath of the Lich King with the "schools of arcane magic" books found in Dalaran. With necromancy being associated with the Void, is it still a form of arcane magic?

I feel like a lot of these questions must already have answers. I haven't been following WoW lately, and this new information just threw me off. If I just sound like an ignorant crazy person who doesn't understand the new lore, then please correct me.

I just feel like it makes more sense for arcane magic to remain a representation of "pure" magic, from which many other forms are derived, rather than an expression of order which seems to contradict every single piece of lore preceeding it.

Thoughts?

arcane magic is a lifeblood, when used it is allmost like a drug, as weve seen with the elves, they have used it so commonly, and had it passivly in their blood, radiating from the well, from being away from it they turn mad as we see with the nightborne, they have been around the magic for so, so long now, that they are addicted to it, and when kicked out of the nightwells radius, they slowly turn insane from lack of passive mana being radiated into them, in the sense of arcane magic

arcane magic is the magic of space, the order of the universe, but it can be unstable, its like electricity... when something goes wrong, or is handled wrong it can go insane, but when it held well, and maintained it can do so, so much i would talk about it for along time and go into a ton of details, but i am going out in a minute

[Schattenlied]

From what I understand the whole thing about demons being attracted to arcane magic isn't true... It was an assumption by the Elves at the time of the Legion's first(?) invasion, they assumed the Legion had come to Azeroth because they had noticed their use of the Arcane... Out of the game, we now know that the Legion was targeting the world for entirely different reasons, and would have shown up regardless of magic use, making that assumption simply false.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Demon souls are anchored un the nether and go back there when killed until they can generate a nrw body but they're not incorporeal creatures by default. Nor is fel magic exclusive to them.

Demons are incorporeal creatures by default. That or they're simply not from an astral dimension composed of spiritual energies that is separate from the physical universe. You may not like it, but that's what it is. Of course demons can have (or possess) physical bodies, but those physical bodies would not come from the nether because the nether is separate from the physical.

[Qualia]

- First off, how exactly is arcane magic an expression of "order"? It's always been portrayed as a chaotic, addicting, and mutagenic force from the Twisting Nether. Even wowpedia seems to contradict itself within the first paragraph (http://wow.gamepedia.com/Arcane), despite being sourced and verified. It states that arcane is "the language of order" but also states that it is "chaotic in nature" and that mages use it to "exploit the instability of the universe".

The War of the Ancients began in part because of the use of arcane magic. Illidan was seduced by the corrupting forces of arcane magic. The Legion was attracted to Azeroth because of its denizens use of arcane magic. The Order of Tirisfal was founded after humans saw firsthand the consequences of unchecked arcane magic.

Even as recently as cataclysm, the "laws of magic" are still regarded as canon, describing it as an addicting, corrupting force that attracts demons. How can this be if arcane is "the language of order" in the universe?

I believe there are a few misunderstandings here. Being a / the language of order doesn't mean Arcane is necessarily orderly in nature. The same way that we have English being considered as one of the languages of science, yet English characters itself have little to do with being scientific. It just means that Arcane energy, if used properly through magic, can be used to shown expressions of Order ("Order is most commonly perceived in reality as arcane magic").

In a way, we can refer to Jaina's thoughts about how using Arcane magic is like doing maths (they actually aren't exactly the same, but we aren't in science class here so let's just assume the basic form of mathematics). The energy itself is like numbers, they don't follow any order when they are by themselves ("This type of energy is innately volatile"). However, harnessing it is similar to doing maths, you need to carefully apply proper formulas and methods ("wielding it requires intense precision and concentration" or " Refitting a spell for a new activity was not as simple as changing an incantation here, altering a motion there. It required a deep and precise understanding of how divination worked, of what it revealed and how"). The results, too, are usually (there are exceptions, but not the norm) predictable if it's a succeed, or the spell just fizzled out in case of a failure (only in rare cases of failure that the energies go wild, trying to close the gaps and make the result happens). Those results are also expressions of order in the sense that the magic would transform / put the elements or other forces (i.e: time or space) in ordered forms instead of having them break out chaotically.

Also, being a language of order doesn't mean Arcane can't be addictive. It's powerful and potent. It isn't weird for the demons who were described as "embraced their furious passions and reveled in pushing the boundaries of their power" or any other beings with similar desires to love something that powerful - be it Arcane, Fel, or whatever. Being the language of order has nothing to do with it. I'm not too sure if the corrupting part, or the "four laws of magic" still hold now. They were written by mortal spellcasters, and thus, might not be correct.

Lastly, Arcane as a whole doesn't necessarily come from the Nether. Technically, it came from the clashing between the Light and the Void which released a lot of energies during the creation of the physical universe. Only after that, the most unstable energies eventually coalesced into the Twisting Nether. So Arcane energy (and Fel too, probably) actually predate the Nether itself. Additionally, I wouldn't be entirely sure that *all* of Arcane energies from the clashing between Light & Void coalesced into the Twisting Nether (which would also means all of our Arcane energy in the physical universe were leaked in from the Nether at first). It's a possibility, since the Nether energies have been flooding into our universe since forever, but I'm not too sure if it must be the case (for example, there could be energies left over, stuck / trapped inside celestial bodies instead of coalescing into the Nether).


Edit: and wow, now that I finished reading through the thread, I see that Rainforest still spewing headcanons as usual, calling devs liars and Chronicle untrustworthy. Why am I not surprised?

[WolfRider]

Demons are beings born of Fel, the main source of magic existing in the Twisting Nether, the part of the Universe where the Void and the Light are still "fighting". They're caught in between two opposite forces so it brings them into a destructive hunger for what is "real".

The Great Dark Beyond is the part of the Universe where the Void and the Light fought but Light won and ordered that plane into a physical reality.
The first beings 'naturally" born in the Great Dark Beyond were the Titans. Their "blood" is a powerful balanced magic called Arcane.

Demons are not attracted by Arcane, in fact a bad or excessive use of Arcane Magic causes troubles into the fabric of the Universe and creates a hole between the Great Dark Beyond and the Twisting Nether.
Curious and hungry beings like Demons are attracted into the Great Dark Beyond and start to destroy everything.

Legion (Burning Legion) is Sargeras using Demons as an army and Eredars (Archimonde & Kil'Jaeden) as his lieutenants.
Warlocks can work with Demons too and use them as weapons (they make a pact with the demons so they can kill or destroy things).

Arcane is not something you can find with the same amount of ressources on every planets of the Great Dark Beyond. It depends on the Titans' activities and the biggest source of Arcane ever found is on Azeroth because a nascent Titan has been wounded because of an Old God's death.

[Qualia]

Demons are beings born of Fel, the main source of magic existing in the Twisting Nether, the part of the Universe where the Void and the Light are still "fighting". They're caught in between two opposite forces so it brings them into a destructive hunger for what is "real".

This might not be true. Demons, to quote Chronicle, "had been formed as a result of the Light and Void energies that bled together at the borders of the Twisting Nether". It's true that in order for a normal creature to become demon, it has to be infused with Fel. However, I don't believe that it was stated that all natural-born demons were born of Fel. I don't think Blizzard said that the demons are hunger for what is real, either.

The Great Dark Beyond is the part of the Universe where the Void and the Light fought but Light won and ordered that plane into a physical reality.
The first beings 'naturally" born in the Great Dark Beyond were the Titans. Their "blood" is a powerful balanced magic called Arcane.

Light didn't win. Neither did Void. Otherwise, we'd have been living in a realm filled with Light or Void. Pure Light as the cosmic force doesn't even exist in our physical universe / Great Dark Beyond. The explosions resulted from the clashing between Light and Void just acted as the Great Dark Beyond's big bang.
I'm also skeptical whether the Titans were the first being naturally born - there were also the spirits, the Naaru, and other unnamed races. "One of the first" would be a more appropriate term.

Demons are not attracted by Arcane, in fact a bad or excessive use of Arcane Magic causes troubles into the fabric of the Universe and creates a hole between the Great Dark Beyond and the Twisting Nether. Curious and hungry beings like Demons are attracted into the Great Dark Beyond and start to destroy everything.

They are. Not just arcane per se, but any kind of powerful / potent energy due to their passions in pushing the boundaries of their power.

The demons embraced their furious passions and reveled in pushing the boundaries of their power, heedless of the consequences. Many of these aberrations indulged in the highly volatile energy that pervaded the Nether.
<...>
Like moths to the flame, the Nether's demonic inhabitants were drawn toward the irresistible source of power.

Arcane is not something you can find with the same amount of ressources on every planets of the Great Dark Beyond. It depends on the Titans' activities and the biggest source of Arcane ever found is on Azeroth because a nascent Titan has been wounded because of an Old God's death.

Not entirely true. It's true that Azeroth has a massively powerful source of Arcane energy. It's also true hat the amounts of Arcane energy are not the same on every planets. However, nowhere was it stated that "it depends on the Titans' activities".

[Wildmoon]

BTW, reckless uses of arcane attracting the burning legion in WotA is canon. The Night Elves didn't misunderstand it. The chronicle confirms this.

[Mace]

From what I understand the whole thing about demons being attracted to arcane magic isn't true... It was an assumption by the Elves at the time of the Legion's first(?) invasion, they assumed the Legion had come to Azeroth because they had noticed their use of the Arcane... Out of the game, we now know that the Legion was targeting the world for entirely different reasons, and would have shown up regardless of magic use, making that assumption simply false.

they are defintiely attracted to arcane magic, it's like crack to them, the magic is the spoils. however what the night elves were wrong about was that, it was the prime reason for what they were doing. To an Elf, who loves peace and beauty, order and life - it seems incredibly insane to want to devour all that - it comes off as a rabid animal driven by instincts, and when you absorb the demons actually sucking magical essence out of every night elf as they polllage and destroy - leaving all manner of valuables , precious materials and other resources, but the magic of a person, you can't really blame them for making that conclusion.

The one person who tried to tell them otherwise, well they didnt' trust, and he didn't make it easy for them too either when he nearly killed Jarod after murdering a few of the night elf guards on creating the new well. We know from the account that goes in his head that he was not re-creating the well to summon teh demons back, that is clear, and that he actualy joined sargeras' ranks to destroy him, because we're told that - but the night elves don't know that. Many years later when they release the book Illidan we would find out the reason for that erratic encounter. We assumed it was magic - corrupting and addling the brain, like the night elves in their bias thought - afterall we can hardly blame Malfurion for laying the troubles of their society at the feet of their arcane usage, or over -usage, but we do find out in Illidan the novel, that the reason for the outburst is the internal struggle with the demon within he fights as he adjusts to his new reality. Prior to Illidan, sharper or more observant readers may have suspected correctly whatever Sargeras did to him was still affecting him, but exactly what was involved was not explained properly , exactly how Illidan was utilizign the demonic knoweldge to figh them was not explained till recently.

This is why I think while chornicles vol1 seems new lore to alot of people, it actualy is mostly not, it's jsut we are seeing the full explanation or a much fuller explanation for a change. The night elves were always wrong about him, it was an unfortuante thing - thatwas clear from the book itself, they were also wrong about arcane magic - but that was not clear - their were hints that it wasn't as simple as right wrong, but that they had over-reacted, which seems a good response when you think that this god-send can bring bout somethign liek the legion, the sensible thing is to not risk it - seeing that failure could end the world by bringing the leigon.

It is also clear from their very introduction, that was a position of the past - ight elves were bound to be changed by the 3rd war, for the very reason they stopped using arcane magic for spells was no longer valid. and if warcraft just ended with WC3 RoC - we may only have thought about them like that.. but the story was defintiely planned to continue, and so i think they were introduced as a people who've been under a 10k year long penance/hardship, but also a sacred charge they do so well for failure would be disastrous, and it's obvious guilt plays a role, they feel it is their responsibility, because their actions brought this.

So their lives change dramatically from before it characterizes them for 10,000 years, and now- it is about to all change again. Beause the reason for doing everything is for the last 10k years was to stop this from happening, and it happens. This changes them, it's no surprise that within 10 years they are practicing arcane magic again, and in Legion - they will find out 3 key things:

1. They aren't soley to blame for this: Legion was looking for Azeroth long before they existed, and would have serached till they found it whether the elves were around or not.

2. The guilt and pain over all the lives they lost is deep because it's personal, they lost their homes , friends, families - but now it turns out they didn't, because Suramar City actually did survive in the grandeur they left it, perfectly preserved.

3. Arcane magic is not to blame, it doesn't corrupt more than any power can do, Azshara had a moral failing and wasn't as perfect as they believed her to be. Arcane source is pure - it is what made the night elves from dark trolls (something they were in denial about) , it is also what made them bring so much beauty into the world before the legion destroyed. ANd can be used like nature magic, civil power to do great good or great harm. Furthermore, arcane magic can be masked from the Legion, and from the twisting nether, so it can be used without calling down the green fel apocalypse that is the legion.. And whiles like nature, if the source becomes corrupt it can cause corruption (like in the Withered shows), but night elvs can successfully use it for 10k years withotut become reckless, addled, greedy or abusive - like the nightborne did - so you don't have to avoid arcane magic to be pure. Furthermore, the night elf is actually able to cope with the truly corrupting magical source without becoming corrupt himself. Every demon hunter now shows that not only can you avoid corruption of the arcane (high elves, nightborne, draenei, gnomes, even humans have shown that) but you can manage fel too, a much tougher task but possible. without corrupting your soul. It will corrupt your body though.

This at least will bring healing to the night elves and a chance to finally rebuild themselves properly, in a whole way (whole as in involving arcane, the divine and nature) like they use to be, and who knows, develop new avenues like elementals, fel and shadow mastery, without going bad.

[Wildmoon]

we do find out in Illidan the novel, that the reason for the outburst is the internal struggle with the demon within he fights as he adjusts to his new reality. Prior to Illidan, sharper or more observant readers may have suspected correctly whatever Sargeras did to him was still affecting him, but exactly what was involved was not explained properly , exactly how Illidan was utilizign the demonic knoweldge to figh them was not explained till recently.

One of the reasons he went to the legion was because he wanted power to prove that he was better than Malfurion. No one was wrong about Illidan. Blizzard retconned shits to make other people wrong. They are whitewashing Illidan.

A lot of people had headcanon that Illidan was a good guy and been doing things for others all along. Blizzard craved to that headcanon.

[jdbond592]

Arcane is byproduct of life/death in great dark beyond just like fel in nether. I am sure eradicating all life from universe will eradicate arcane too. It is closet thing to "Force" from Warcraft universe.

[Qualia]

Arcane is byproduct of life/death in great dark beyond just like fel in nether. I am sure eradicating all life from universe will eradicate arcane too. It is closet thing to "Force" from Warcraft universe.

I don't think so. Arcane is just a type of energy - it's already there, and it was created due to the clash between Light & Void, not life and death. Wiping out all life in the universe wouldn't remove all Arcane energy from it (not even counting the one that would be leaked in from the Nether).