1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by stewiefied View Post
    Using TFT on vivify isn't the only way it will save mana. If you use TFT on renewing mist it will give you more UT vivifys throughout the course of the fight, making vivify more mana efficient and also increasing your throughput. Casting one 40% larger vivify can be better than casting two 50% cost vivifys in many situations. If you still feel like your "extra" TFT should be used on vivify, why wouldnt you use all of your TFTs on it?

    I don't think you can compare the two correctly if you are thinking of FT as free vivifys, you need to think of FT as doubling the renewing mists out in the raid and take into account the extra ReM healing and extra UT vivifys.
    See TFT Tab. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=478095095

    UT procs are included in the TFT theorycraft. Artifact traits or legendaries are not.

    Even though Vivify is better by a long shot, you could still cast TFT-ReM during downtime to get your HoTs out there and not waste the TFT usage. When they inevitably jump, you may also proc new full-duration ReMs with the Artifact trait (forget what it's called right now).
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  2. #302
    Dreadlord Rife's Avatar
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    Have to agree with Buildapanda on mana tea.

    One of the aspects of MW pre 7.0 that I enjoyed was the ability to bank mana tea during low raid damage times to then spend it during high damage times. This was especially true below 2133 spirit. It was a mechanic that rewarded efficient play. It also allowed you to cut HPS and allow other healers to pick up the slack so you could basically bank RJW uptime for when you knew that uptime could save the raid. Early Gore progression and third feast comes to mind here or Impregnator last phase.

    That nuance is now gone. Instead we have a spec that lacks depth which is made apparent by the questions and answers given in this thread.

    If you need mana spec Lifecycles, if not spec Mist Wrap.
    Don't cast Vivify without UT.
    Enveloping if it won't overheal much.
    Spec Crane.
    Use TFT for ReM.
    Spend the rest of the time afk Soothing.

    That's 90% of the questions here answered and the spec's gameplay choices summed up in 5 lines. Boring.

    Most of the "choices" MW has left aren't choices at all because there is one clearly optimal choice and the rest are sub-optimal in almost all cases.

    Eg: Should I use TFT for free Vivifies to save mana or ReM?
    Answer: ReM. Always.

    No MW has to decide between TFT Viv or TFT ReM on the fly in a raid. It might seem like a choice but it isn't.

  3. #303
    Deleted
    Mana Tea was a mechanic to waste global cooldowns. Only reason it was even good was fistweaving. Every Chi producing spell was 1% base mana more expensive just so mana tea could give that 4% mana back. Then they changed tea to scale with spirit and we really didnt need mana tea anymore. Instead they created a monster that could sustain a spell that costed 1/8 of the max mana.. It also made it so only the 3x stack of ReM talent was the only option.

    New monk is alot better mechanicly and its less punished by starting a new monk. Old monk sucked hard when you dinged it didnt really become good until you started to get brf trinkets or better. The spirit could pretty much only sustaint +/- mana gain/-loose from your Soothing mist. Its mechanic was really bad for 5man content. Uplift cant be good for 5mans then it would be to good for raids. Same went to REM.

    Specc might had worked better if it only had 1 of the chi or mana tea with them both together instead we had expensive low healing chi producers.

    New Thunder Focus Tea monk mechanics is imo alot more interesting then the old chi/manatea monk. New rem is alot more interesting then the old one. Instead of 3 weak hots its now 1 very strong hot, one of the strongest in the game. It creates a gameplay where you want it to bounce arround as much as posible.

    But then again its opinions, are allowed to dislike or like it.

  4. #304
    I just want to say that I love the new mistweaver! I've been playing my holy priest for 12 years now and if all go as planned I will reroll this expansion. I started yesterday playing the mw with 663ilvl. Did all the mythic dungeons no problem. A tiny bit manahungry but it was so much fun! I didnt run an op group and noone had more than 700 in the different groups. Tw dungeons aint a problem. I got crit mastery gear and it seems fine. Yeey for the new mistw i rate 9/10

  5. #305
    Deleted
    Okayyyy so I did my first HFC since long time back:

    Mistweaver is not nearly as fun as it was, which doesn't mean it's bad... It's pretty cool, but not as intresting/complex.

    I prefer Chi burst / Lifecycles / Chi-Ji (obviously) / FT for raiding.
    Even though I'm not abusing lifecycles as much as I probably should, I do feel it's probably the best choice for raids.


    For dungeons however, I'm going with:
    Mistwalk / Mist Wrap / Statue / FT
    And that just feels awesome


    I do miss spamming soothing with instant enveloping/surgings... this auto-casting is really weird/dull/mindnumbing (but that's probably pretty much of how the spec feels in total).

  6. #306
    Deleted
    How was spamming RJW/Surging Mist and Uplift with ReM (to abuse Extend Life) in any chance more complex than the new playstyle?

  7. #307
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    Noticing that sometimes chi burst heals targets multiple times. Think it looks to be tide with movement. As I can replicate it with Transcendence.

  8. #308
    Dreadlord Rife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huolan View Post
    How was spamming RJW/Surging Mist and Uplift with ReM (to abuse Extend Life) in any chance more complex than the new playstyle?
    ReM charges, Extend Life, RJW with Tea Banking, Chi management and Uplift allowed for far more complexity and flexibility than the current playstyle offers IMO. In 740+ gear farming HFC while underhealing bosses wasn't complex or difficult but prior to overgearing content those mechanics added a lot of depth and thought to the spec. Extend Life alone meant you were planning ~10 seconds in advance at all times if you were really pushing your performance.

    On Socrethar I used to bank 3 ReM charges and 2 Brews for the marks going out so I could EL heal them all. I used to bank RJW uptime for 3rd feast on Gore progress or last phase Imperator. I used to save ReM/EL charges for beam targets on Iskar and wroughts on Archie, marks on Manno, etc. There used to be some planning involved on every boss so that I could get the most out of EL and RJW, especially if I saw a mechanic go out onto a class that didn't have a strong personal like empowered chains on Xhul. In those scenarios my smart play and planning could literally save someone from dying.

    You know what I do now? I decide whether to press Vivify or Enveloping. If there are no good Enveloping targets and I don't have a UT proc I stare at my Soothing cast bar or if I'm feeling fidgety I press Effuse for what is likely the smallest casted heal in the raid. Much depth.

    90% of 7.0 MW is 3 spells with very little interaction or variation. Vivify with UT, ReM on CD and Enveloping when it won't overheal much. The rest either comes passively like Soothing or UT or has requirements or costs so ridiculous they only marginally effect playstyle; EF, RJW, CB, Rev, Chi'Ji. Before I trigger someone for saying Revival is marginal I mean that once I know to use Revival for X mechanic or at X time I don't need to think about it during the other 95% of the fight. It doesn't factor into my decision making global to global and thus has a marginal effect on gameplay.

    The current MW feels a lot like old Resto Shamans, but less powerful. The new Disc feels like the old MW but more powerful, ironically.

  9. #309
    Deleted
    You talking about 7.0 in wod or in beta?

    Cos essence Font is really powerful. Personally I use soothing mist very rarely.

    Have manage to get 6/6 vivify relics on beta. So every Vivify is now 1104% spellpower.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    ReM charges, Extend Life, RJW with Tea Banking, Chi management and Uplift allowed for far more complexity and flexibility than the current playstyle offers IMO. In 740+ gear farming HFC while underhealing bosses wasn't complex or difficult but prior to overgearing content those mechanics added a lot of depth and thought to the spec. Extend Life alone meant you were planning ~10 seconds in advance at all times if you were really pushing your performance.

    On Socrethar I used to bank 3 ReM charges and 2 Brews for the marks going out so I could EL heal them all. I used to bank RJW uptime for 3rd feast on Gore progress or last phase Imperator. I used to save ReM/EL charges for beam targets on Iskar and wroughts on Archie, marks on Manno, etc. There used to be some planning involved on every boss so that I could get the most out of EL and RJW, especially if I saw a mechanic go out onto a class that didn't have a strong personal like empowered chains on Xhul. In those scenarios my smart play and planning could literally save someone from dying.

    You know what I do now? I decide whether to press Vivify or Enveloping. If there are no good Enveloping targets and I don't have a UT proc I stare at my Soothing cast bar or if I'm feeling fidgety I press Effuse for what is likely the smallest casted heal in the raid. Much depth.

    90% of 7.0 MW is 3 spells with very little interaction or variation. Vivify with UT, ReM on CD and Enveloping when it won't overheal much. The rest either comes passively like Soothing or UT or has requirements or costs so ridiculous they only marginally effect playstyle; EF, RJW, CB, Rev, Chi'Ji. Before I trigger someone for saying Revival is marginal I mean that once I know to use Revival for X mechanic or at X time I don't need to think about it during the other 95% of the fight. It doesn't factor into my decision making global to global and thus has a marginal effect on gameplay.

    The current MW feels a lot like old Resto Shamans, but less powerful. The new Disc feels like the old MW but more powerful, ironically.
    I was talking to a casual friend who was trying out mistweaver and he flatout says it's easier and there are less things to think about. That says it all to me about the direction they wanted to go with the spec, they weren't happy that nobody played the spec because of its difficulty, now that there are no decisions to be made(kinda like how it seems to be with 100% of the specs now)people will actually use mistweaver. Screw the people who have been carrying the spec for the last 2 expansions though. Our opinions don't mean anything.
    I hope i'm not right that that is what people actually want. If this is all for easier more straightforward gameplay, then I think I'm playing the wrong game.
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  11. #311
    Dreadlord Rife's Avatar
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    Players will adjust.

    I think Discs are going from the most played healer in 6.x to the least played in Legion by a mile. MW will go from least played to probably middle of the pack.

    Many more players will enjoy the new MW than the number of old MW'ers who no longer like it. Overall it's probably good for the spec to see it get more use and have it become more accessible.

    I'm just thankful that Blizz aren't averse to making a difficult but powerful healer. Or at least a healer with a high skill ceiling and punishing mechanics if mishandled but borderline OP if handled well. If you fuck up on MW you probably waste one Effuse worth of mana or lose a few hundred percent spell power healing on a cast. No big deal. If you fuck up on Disc you can lose half of your total throughput or more.

    There is certainly some room for smart play left in the new MW but it's a shadow of it's former self. Maybe that means Blizz will be able to balance to spec for PvP and 5 mans now though which could be great.

  12. #312
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    90% of 7.0 MW is 3 spells with very little interaction or variation.
    Apart from the random %.

    Wod MW:

    Looking at logs, ReM+EL+Uplift did 50% of your healing on HFC Archimonde. Then you add about 17% more from Revival. Thats 3 buttons in total.

    On Gorefiend you would Uplift combo to gain mana tea then go full harambe with RJW, Ring and Revival on feast. You would literally spam buttons and then drink after the phase.

    Legion MW has some interesting tools too, Chi-Ji function as a secondary output cd, our mastery is finally useful, ReM is a good hot rather than an Uplift booster and EnvM is a lot stronger if you need to single target.
    Last edited by mmocbbcd5e81e3; 2016-08-01 at 12:50 AM.

  13. #313
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    It's fine to miss old mistweaver, I'm going to miss the difference between the number of uplifts I could do, and some 80th percentile monk. The skill cap was pretty high on old mistweaver.

    But please stop saying mana tea "banking" was a complex mechanic old mistweaver had. If you removed mana tea the same thing would of happened, but in those gcds you would of stance danced to crane stance and did some dps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rizso1985 View Post
    Noticing that sometimes chi burst heals targets multiple times. Think it looks to be tide with movement. As I can replicate it with Transcendence.
    it resets it's diminishing return during it's travel time. It's done that since 5.2, which is why the random buffs that it gets is stupid.

    Right now on some fights chi burst will be your top healing spell.
    Last edited by Supliftz; 2016-08-01 at 02:54 AM.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supliftz View Post
    It's fine to miss old mistweaver, I'm going to miss the difference between the number of uplifts I could do, and some 80th percentile monk. The skill cap was pretty high on old mistweaver.

    But please stop saying mana tea "banking" was a complex mechanic old mistweaver had. If you removed mana tea the same thing would of happened, but in those gcds you would of stance danced to crane stance and did some dps.

    - - - Updated - - -



    it resets it's diminishing return during it's travel time. It's done that since 5.2, which is why the random buffs that it gets is stupid.

    Right now on some fights chi burst will be your top healing spell.
    I mean it healed the same target 2 times with 1 burst.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    I think Discs are going from the most played healer in 6.x to the least played in Legion by a mile. MW will go from least played to probably middle of the pack.
    Well, let me be the first to jump ship.. As much as I loved my disc priest before WOD, the WOD gameplay killed it for me and the new Legion game play made me officially swap to my monk as main.

    There is nothing funnier than being on your disc priest, have the pug you're in going bad on Iskar, everyone taking damage from tons of sources and feel useless to top off a raid. That's the point where I gave up and realized you're never going to be able to save a raid on a disc priest anymore, and it's not going to be viable unless an encounter is completely under control.

    I understand absorbs were not fun for anyone, but I really don't see what's fun in managing a buff to heal people and then do a boring dps rotation. If I wanted to still be focusing on optimizing my dps rotation, I'd still be playing my ret paladin.

    And yes I know, I could play it more and practice more and get better.. but this is what I'm starting to hate about this game, I'm sick and tired of having to relearn my classes at every xpac when Resto Druids and Resto Shamans are untouched.

    Sadly playing a mistweaver and a disc priest didn't leave me much of a safe zone to not relearn my class completely this xpac, but I can't say Mistweaver is hard right now, I know it's pre-patch, but it's kind of weird to have to care about mana in full BIS gear.
    Last edited by Spotnick; 2016-08-01 at 05:34 AM.
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  16. #316
    Pretty sure at one stage i remember using Chi Torpedo to get in front of Chi Burst then Transcendence to get hit 3 times lol,
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  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huolan View Post
    How was spamming RJW/Surging Mist and Uplift with ReM (to abuse Extend Life) in any chance more complex than the new playstyle?
    You could clearly separate good mistweavers and bad mistweavers.

    Right now the only "complex" thing we have is probably making most efficient use of healing people with the EF HoT on them. Maybe managing mana will also be "hard", I don't know cause I didn't try any beta stuff.

    Good example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Supliftz View Post
    It's fine to miss old mistweaver, I'm going to miss the difference between the number of uplifts I could do, and some 80th percentile monk. The skill cap was pretty high on old mistweaver.
    Yep. Or checking all bosses logs and seeing I only wasted 1-2 Chi over a full raid, that satisfying feeling of knowing your class.


    Also for some reason, my mistweaver now reminds me of my priest in WoTLK...... am I crazy here or do more people feel like it? Which is a good thing cause I loved my priest back then.
    Last edited by mmoc9b3cf529b2; 2016-08-01 at 06:11 AM.

  18. #318
    Dreadlord Rife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    everyone taking damage from tons of sources and feel useless to top off a raid.
    To be fair I don't think any healer will be able to save a raid that's going south in Legion.

    It only feels like it's possible now because we overgear the shit out of encounters where mana isn't an issue so you can go full Harambe on your most expensive heal and hope the boss dies before you OOM.

    Damage patterns aren't as time sensitive in Legion IMO based on beta but my beta experience has been pretty limited and it remains to be seen how patterns change over the course of the expansion with the spirit changes.

    Even in Mythics now if I see a DPS on 50% and a tank on 50% I think about how quickly the DPS is going to die and if my 2s heal will hit the tank before he's dead or if the tank has a CD to use to stay alive. In Legion I don't think like that until someone is @ ~20% and seeing HP bars at 50% has me thinking about my throughput over the next 6-10 seconds not over the next global.

    I get your point about how helpless Disc feels when the raid is going fuckey and people are being retarded though. Especially at the end of an expac where damage patterns are such that people need to be topped nearly instantly or they're as good as dead in a split second.

  19. #319
    I agree with you. Manamanagement is way more fun, I actually have to pay attention to it.

  20. #320
    Deleted
    Following this thread i have stumbled upon a few questions that i hope you guys might be able to help me answer.

    Maybe i am missing something, or maybe i am just not good enough to see the bigger picture, but do we really want to use Vivify at any point in time without the UT buff in Legion? Won't Essence Font be better in all aoe scenarios? And isn't Essence Font one of the greatest aoe heals with no CD of all the healing classes?

    To me Lifecycles is a talent that forces you to use/waste mana very often to save mana, in other words, i don't really like it, especially with Extend Life tier bonus gone. Mist Wrap seems great for dungeons, but for aoe raid healing i don't feel it is a great talent either. This leaves me with SotC. Now i don't like the fistweaving element much about MW monks, but it is great in specific bossfights where there are downtime periods. So why not use this talent a bit as you often used the old Mana Tea? SotC doesn't mean you HAVE to take RT, does it? Can't you go with FT and SotC at the same time?
    Ofcourse SotC will only make sense in some encounters and not all, but IF there is actually long fights where the raid dmg i varying a lot, won't this be a legit way to play MW?

    Hope you guys can enlighten me a little on some of these questions

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