Does tanking get better at 110?

[Magnosh]

Which the fighy had to be gamed to be done and is a unique example.

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That is certainly not the consensus, nor what the numers support. Druid or pally are 1 or 2 almost across the board, many putting holy priest 3rd

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More often then not this happened because adds were cheesed or well past progression letting people get creative while also out gearing content.

You can say staking debuffs is getting the fight ''gamed'', what do you say to Garrosh Heroic with Tanks toping the dps meters? Shitty dpsers?

[Deleted]

Got to love putting links and not knowing they are against your point XD

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Such a play style was actually fun, this was the fight i had more fun in my guild since each debuff the boss was putting on the tank after the 3rd application was a 1shot if you didn't manage your CD's, your other tank CDs and your Healer's CDs. The amount of damage we were getting increased vengence so much that we outdpsed everyone. But that was my guild back then, you might say all dpsers are shit (you would be wrong but its ok). So here is Midwinter on the World 3rd Siegecrafter Kill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdvfeHIp-bI


The 2 top dps are TANKS.

Apparently the other guy didn't play the game at that time to know how Vengeance worked or to know that Taunt was changed around that time as well and was generating more threat for the first few seconds.

Either way, I totally agree with you that this was one of the most entertaining expansions to be a tank for many reasons: First of all, it was when the active mitigation was introduced which made things very interesting. Also Vengeance was one of the most interesting mechanics because it required a great understanding and knowledge of how much damage you can sustain without mitigation in order to further boost your damage as a tank and help your group. Being in the top of the damage rankings as a main tank was not because of cheesing or due to the fact that the DPS players were bad. It was the expected and the top raiding guilds in the world used tanks' Vengeance as a way to further boost the overall damage done in order to kill bosses for which they were undergeared.

Overall, if the main tank was not in the top of dps charts that was the weird thing and showed poor understanding of how Vengeance worked. Whoever says the opposite simply didn't play or raid during that expansion.

[Gemini Soul]

Apparently the other guy didn't play the game at that time to know how Vengeance worked or to know that Taunt was changed around that time as well and was generating more threat for the first few seconds.

Either way, I totally agree with you that this was one of the most entertaining expansions to be a tank for many reasons: First of all, it was when the active mitigation was introduced which made things very interesting. Also Vengeance was one of the most interesting mechanics because it required a great understanding and knowledge of how much damage you can sustain without mitigation in order to further boost your damage as a tank and help your group. Being in the top of the damage rankings as a main tank was not because of cheesing or due to the fact that the DPS players were bad. It was the expected and the top raiding guilds in the world used tanks' Vengeance as a way to further boost the overall damage done in order to kill bosses for which they were undergeared.

Overall, if the main tank was not in the top of dps charts that was the weird thing and showed poor understanding of how Vengeance worked. Whoever says the opposite simply didn't play or raid during that expansion.

I miss those days of being the top DPS and not needing a healer to keep you alive while you tanks 5mams, LFR, and a few bosses in SoO. I remember tanking Sha a lot in SoO and not needing a healer even on Heroic/Mythic, or tanking Thok when we never let him transition and my FR would heal for more than my max HP was. Those were fun times!

[Magnosh]

I miss those days of being the top DPS and not needing a healer to keep you alive while you tanks 5mams, LFR, and a few bosses in SoO. I remember tanking Sha a lot in SoO and not needing a healer even on Heroic/Mythic, or tanking Thok when we never let him transition and my FR would heal for more than my max HP was. Those were fun times!

I was truly happy to be a tank in MoP, most of the fights were entertaining and engaging specially when compared to WoD.

I believe the most fun I had was Tanking Iron Juggernault Heroic on my 10 man group, one Hunter died at the start of the fight but we kept going (that was farm content, think we were stuck for a bit on Malkorok) and the Boss entered Berzerk, I told to the group to spread so when we die he can be kited and die from DoTs, our Blood DK messed up and died as most players leaving me with a Disc Priest and a couple of other DPS for 15 seconds before killing the boss, oh those Executes were glorious.

[Brewhan]

I logged in to play around with the pre-patch. I've consistently played tanks during WoW.

I was in a bit of a shock when I logged into my brewmaster, then my prot warrior, then my prot pali. They gutted everything... I feel like I have 6 abilities to press now on any of the tank classes. I've never been more sad than now with the state of tanking.

So I haven't been blessed with legion beta access, and haven't kept up with much information, but does tanking get better at 110 as far as gameplay depth?

I just cannot see myself playing the cut down version of tanks if it doesn't get significantly better at end game.


Thanks

All tanking specs have about 5 buttons to press, and maybe 2-3 for defensive, you get one more ability ( your artifact skill)

I've got a 110 prot pally on beta. It's still just as easy as you are seeing it now. Actually more so when I activate the god mode artifact skill on my pally then dance around at full HP .

[Treeskee]

BE POSITIVE! Things will always get better.

[Hotmail]

Artifact weapons will fix it.

[Shangxi]

Don't know why there are so many mentions of brewmaster being bad now, sure it's different but after testing it on beta at 110, levelling to 110 as BrM and reaching about 850 ilvl with it I can honestly say it's really enjoyable and with 'Blackout Combo' it feels incredibly fluid and fast paced (though maybe sub-optimal).

[Raugnaut]

Guard was actually 1800% of AP, they never updated that tooltip throughout almost the entirety of BRF. It's still a lot less than what Warriors get for a shield from AP now, though.

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3% leech that you get entirely for free without having to make any tradeoffs other than using what is already the best tank is mandatory, yes. The only other class-specific raid utility anywhere in the league of Inspiring Presence is Stampeding Roar and that can be done by any Druid, not just one spec.

Stampeding Roar is Guardian-only now.

[Averrix]

I love how the people who are crying about not being able to be a god anymore as a tank think tanking is bad now. It's the way the game should be, tanks should have to rely on healers to stay alive as well as whatever you can do yourself. I mean, that's why there are healers in the game, to keep people alive, not just the dps. I'm glad that tanks actually have to do stuff now to stay alive and not just hit one cooldown and tank the boss till it's over. Now it really will separate the good from the bad.

[Brewhan]

I love how the people who are crying about not being able to be a god anymore as a tank think tanking is bad now. It's the way the game should be, tanks should have to rely on healers to stay alive as well as whatever you can do yourself. I mean, that's why there are healers in the game, to keep people alive, not just the dps. I'm glad that tanks actually have to do stuff now to stay alive and not just hit one cooldown and tank the boss till it's over. Now it really will separate the good from the bad.

but tanks dont have to do anything to stay alive but just pray the healer isnt AFK, we have like 2-3 survability buttons. Maybe if we had 5+ we needed to rotate into our core rotation that statement would be true. Tanks now are just DPSers with good passive damage reduction so they dont get 1 shot by mobs.

Give me an ability that I have to press every 5 seconds that makes it so I dont get 1 shot then maybe i'll feel like an actual tank where staying alive is more important than DPS.

Oh wait there was a time.

prot paladin in BC, pressing holy shield, getting defense rating gear, being uncrushable... yeees yeeees

Look at the character sheet nowadays? HAH all you chasing is an item level.

[Raugnaut]

Don't know why there are so many mentions of brewmaster being bad now, sure it's different but after testing it on beta at 110, levelling to 110 as BrM and reaching about 850 ilvl with it I can honestly say it's really enjoyable and with 'Blackout Combo' it feels incredibly fluid and fast paced (though maybe sub-optimal).

Its mainly because most BrM are used to having Guard, which was a huge shield that was available often. Also because right after Guard, you could get rid of ALL stagger, rather then only half. (You are no longer capable of getting rid of ALL of your stagger, you have to time it out). Finally, rather then having a steadily increasing dodge chance, we instead had a large baseline dodge chance with extremely high uptime (45% dodge chance, and at higher gear lvls you have extremely high uptime on it. Combined with baseline Dodge, we had 55% dodge chance with a very high uptime, along with huge spike mitigation.)

So, complete loss of our spike mitigation (Our spike prevention is still good though, we just can't mitigate it well), and huge loss to our sustained mitigation (55% dodge chance brought down to an extremely RNG based dodging that averages out to something like 20% dodge chance.)

Overall, the ONLY tanking spec that can be considered to be in a better spot then before 7.0 is Guardian, really. Everyone else recieved nerfs of some sort or another - DKs lost most of their mitigation CDs and now are more maintainy, BrM lost a huge amount of mitigation overall for everything, Paladin lost mitigation. Warriors are more or less the same - A couple CDs are a bit longer, but everyone has longer CDs except Guardian, whose CDs have remained the same.

Guardians gained a huge amount of guaranteed mitigation (Previously, they had a very weak, 25% phys damage mitigation tied to RNG dodge, and a heal. Now they have a stacking 75% armor buff that can stack quite a bit, 30% magic reduction, and a good amount of passive reduction through talents.) Finally, they gained extremely strong recovery - Frenzied Regen is extremely cheap, and will recover 50% of all damage taken in past 5 seconds as a HoT. Combined with their massively increased HP pool, and increased healing recieved, Guardian is the number 1 tank going into Legion.

So BrM went from being the MOST reliable tank in terms of mitigating damage spikes, to no longer being able to mitigate said spikes whatsoever, AND having an extremely RNG method of

[preechlol]

So BrM went from being the MOST reliable tank in terms of mitigating damage spikes, to no longer being able to mitigate said spikes whatsoever, AND having an extremely RNG method of

That is just not true at all.
BrM can have almost constant 70-100% stagger, which leads to taking every damage spread out in a 10second duration.
You can say all the bad things you want, but "spiky" is not among them.

[Shangxi]

Its mainly because most BrM are used to having Guard, which was a huge shield that was available often. Also because right after Guard, you could get rid of ALL stagger, rather then only half. (You are no longer capable of getting rid of ALL of your stagger, you have to time it out). Finally, rather then having a steadily increasing dodge chance, we instead had a large baseline dodge chance with extremely high uptime (45% dodge chance, and at higher gear lvls you have extremely high uptime on it. Combined with baseline Dodge, we had 55% dodge chance with a very high uptime, along with huge spike mitigation.)

After playing BrM for a good chunk of MoP and WoD I am honestly glad they got rid of guard, it went from being a small defensive cd to our bread and butter mitigation and combined with resolve was generally just overpowered and boring. Though I miss not being able to purify all stagger I can also see why that is the case as (for the meantime at least) damage is not as spikey in general for tanks and we have substantially more ability to stagger damage than ever before it would again be overpowered if we could just clear 100% of it.

That being said the new kit is not perfect and I'd agree that the power of BrM has been reduced overall (but rightfully so imo), I still think it is more of a balanced and engaging spec than it previously was in WoD where you merely hit guard when we reached max resolve and spammed expel harm for nigh on invincibility.

The main problem I'd say the new kit has is simply not having any additional armor to help mitigate regular melee attacks since as of right now we effectively get hit just as hard as a rogue (pre-stagger). Though its not overly difficult to maintain Ironskin Brew to smooth out the big melee hits or abilities of bosses you quickly reach a position where you are out of brews to purify the increasing stagger damage you are taking or your ironskin brew drops off and you find yourself instantly flattened. This will probably be a bit easier to manage with better gear of course but I think simply having a small armor bonus would help us survive those moments where we don't have Ironskin Brew up as some of the devs stated that we should have in fights.

[Raugnaut]

That is just not true at all.
BrM can have almost constant 70-100% stagger, which leads to taking every damage spread out in a 10second duration.
You can say all the bad things you want, but "spiky" is not among them.

BrM can have 100% stagger, if you pop your only non-talented defensive, which is on a hefty CD, and will not be up for every single damage spike.

Otherwise, BrM will have up to 85 with Ironskin Brew (75% non-talented).

I also said that BrM is no longer as good as mitigating spiky damage, which is true. As Purifying Brew shares charges with Ironskin Brew, quite often you wind up having to heal that spiky damage anyways. If you note, I did say that BrM are still good at preventing spikes, but not good at mitigating them.

[Xequecal]

BrM can have 100% stagger, if you pop your only non-talented defensive, which is on a hefty CD, and will not be up for every single damage spike.

Otherwise, BrM will have up to 85 with Ironskin Brew (75% non-talented).

I also said that BrM is no longer as good as mitigating spiky damage, which is true. As Purifying Brew shares charges with Ironskin Brew, quite often you wind up having to heal that spiky damage anyways. If you note, I did say that BrM are still good at preventing spikes, but not good at mitigating them.

This post doesn't make any sense. If you take a spike of damage and it doesn't kill you, you will by necessity take less damage later because you got elusive brawler stacks. "Not mitigating spikes" is an irrelevant concept.

BrM design is fine when compared to bears, DKs, Paladins, and DH. It's mainly Warriors that are stupid broken because you don't need to worry about spikes when you don't take damage at all.

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Stampeding Roar is Guardian-only now.

I went and looked this up, and feral gets it as well. I did think it was every spec but I guess not.

[Raugnaut]

This post doesn't make any sense. If you take a spike of damage and it doesn't kill you, you will by necessity take less damage later because you got elusive brawler stacks. "Not mitigating spikes" is an irrelevant concept.

BrM design is fine when compared to bears, DKs, Paladins, and DH. It's mainly Warriors that are stupid broken because you don't need to worry about spikes when you don't take damage at all.

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I went and looked this up, and feral gets it as well. I did think it was every spec but I guess not.

In legion, there are no longer as many spike damages. In the current tier, the thing that matters more is your overall passive mitigation. BrM is nearly bottom of the bucket for overall passive mitigation - We have the least amount of mitigation from armor (Leather only), we tend to take 3-4 hits before our mastery finally kicks in, and we can go for more, and finally, we can no longer fully mitigate our stagger, even though we stagger more damage then ever before. Finally, besides a steady trickle of heals from talents, GotO is, again, more RNG.

Way it should work - We take damage passively like all other tanks. We can pop Ironskin Brew for spikes, and otherwise we pop Purifying to help reduce the stress on the healers. If we dip low, we can pick up orbs
Way it currently works - Health tanks whenever Ironskin isn't up. Purify is used only at completely immense stagger levels. Orbs should be picked up quite often in order to help relieve just a tidbit of the stress on healers when healing us.

Ironskin and Purify needs to be decoupled from each other. Otherwise, BrM won't "mitigate" anywhere near as much damage as the other tanks, but instead delay it out for healers to heal.

[Xequecal]

In legion, there are no longer as many spike damages. In the current tier, the thing that matters more is your overall passive mitigation. BrM is nearly bottom of the bucket for overall passive mitigation - We have the least amount of mitigation from armor (Leather only), we tend to take 3-4 hits before our mastery finally kicks in, and we can go for more, and finally, we can no longer fully mitigate our stagger, even though we stagger more damage then ever before. Finally, besides a steady trickle of heals from talents, GotO is, again, more RNG.

Way it should work - We take damage passively like all other tanks. We can pop Ironskin Brew for spikes, and otherwise we pop Purifying to help reduce the stress on the healers. If we dip low, we can pick up orbs
Way it currently works - Health tanks whenever Ironskin isn't up. Purify is used only at completely immense stagger levels. Orbs should be picked up quite often in order to help relieve just a tidbit of the stress on healers when healing us.

Ironskin and Purify needs to be decoupled from each other. Otherwise, BrM won't "mitigate" anywhere near as much damage as the other tanks, but instead delay it out for healers to heal.

1. GotO isn't RNG and hasn't been for months.
2. Make up your mind. Either spike damage is important or it isn't. If it isn't, then you can't complain about things being RNG because that gets smoothed out over time, provided you don't get spiked down.

[Raugnaut]

1. GotO isn't RNG and hasn't been for months.
2. Make up your mind. Either spike damage is important or it isn't. If it isn't, then you can't complain about things being RNG because that gets smoothed out over time, provided you don't get spiked down.

GotO is RNG - If you are in a situation in which you need a GotO orb for healing, and you have none around you, you are not guaranteed to spawn one within the next few hits. Niche situation, but every single other tank's powerful healing ability is predictable and on demand. It would be akin to Warrior's Ignore Pain being "Whenever you are hit, you have a 50% chance to reduce the damage of said hit by 90%". On average, 50% of hits will be reduced by 90%, but you can't guarantee that the right hits.

For spike damage, my point is this - BrM is excellent at reducing spikes. However, unlike other tanks, which will heal up the spike damage, reducing strain on the healers, due to how BrM's brews share charges, they can't do that. They have to choose between either mitigation OR survivability. Its flawed, and it reflects on BrM's performance.

[Xequecal]

GotO is RNG - If you are in a situation in which you need a GotO orb for healing, and you have none around you, you are not guaranteed to spawn one within the next few hits. Niche situation, but every single other tank's powerful healing ability is predictable and on demand. It would be akin to Warrior's Ignore Pain being "Whenever you are hit, you have a 50% chance to reduce the damage of said hit by 90%". On average, 50% of hits will be reduced by 90%, but you can't guarantee that the right hits.

For spike damage, my point is this - BrM is excellent at reducing spikes. However, unlike other tanks, which will heal up the spike damage, reducing strain on the healers, due to how BrM's brews share charges, they can't do that. They have to choose between either mitigation OR survivability. Its flawed, and it reflects on BrM's performance.

1. No, that's not how GotO works. GotO generates an orb whenever you take 100% of your health in damage pre-stagger. It is perfectly predictable.
2. For example, Druid heals for 50% of the damage taken in the last 5 seconds with Frenzied Regen. This has a 24-second cooldown. A Monk can do exactly the same thing with ISB + Purify. You generate quite a bit more than 2 charges every 24 seconds.