Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[theburned]

So what are your guys experience: How many Rejuv's can we roll out without going oom in a fight that will be 6 Minutes+? I'm still trying to find the sweet point.

Roughly every 3rd second if you are not specced into SotF + prosperity, with innervate allowing you to cast roughly 10 more rejuvs pr 3 minutes (if used on self to get out wild growth, efflorence, and preferably lifebloom + swiftmend, potentially a tranq as last cast aswell.) Every additional WG beyond that once pr minute will cost a bit more than 3 rejuvs aswell. ToL changes this quite a lot aswell quite high mana cost while it's up, which means you will have to reduce the casts outside it.

[tein]

Such a strange question... I'll fix it for you :

So what are your guys experience: How many WG's can we roll out without going oom in a fight that will be 6 Minutes+? I'm still trying to find the sweet point.

[fallenangel-succ]

Such a strange question... I'll fix it for you :

Seeing as WG has a CD and is an efficient, AoE heal, then no, your fix doesn't make a lot of sense. WG is used as needed according to fight mechanics and heal requirements, quite possibly on CD.

[theburned]

Seeing as WG has a CD and is an efficient, AoE heal, then no, your fix doesn't make a lot of sense. WG is used as needed according to fight mechanics and heal requirements, quite possibly on CD.

Also largely reliant on SotF or quite a few rejuvs out to be worth it.

[Tiberria]

Your mana regen - at level 110 - is 46,639 / 5 seconds or 279,834 per 30 seconds excluding any regen trinkets but including all regen artifact traits.

Within those 30 seconds, you have to cast at minimum - regardless of Rejuv or WG usage:
1 x Efflo = 47,520 mana
2 x Lifebloom = 52,800 mana

That leaves you with 179,514 mana in a 30 second window for discretionary WG/Rejuv casts.

WG costs 70,312 mana, so - no - regardless of how efficient WG is - you absolutely can not afford to cast it every 10 seconds on CD even if you cast 0 Rejuvs.

If you take SoTF, - a SM - WG is 101,112 mana, so you would be able to afford basically 1 additional WG within that 30 second window if you cast 0 Rejuvs period. In any real situation where you can't just not cast anything for 10 seconds and need to contribute some level of HoTs, you're not going to be able to do that, so it is 100% reasonable to say - if you take SoTF, you pretty much can not cast WG outside of SoTF procs. If you only cast one SoTF-WG every 25 seconds (using Swiftmend as often as possible basically), that works out to 121,334 mana consumed per 30 seconds. That leaves you with 58,180 mana to play with. Rejuv is 22,000 mana, so you can afford to cast 2-3 of them every 30 seconds. Therefore, this is what we can afford to cast in an SoTF build in a 30 second window.

1 x Effo
2 x LB
1 x SM
1 x WG
2-3 x Rejuv

That is it - unless you get regen trinkets. Does anyone have the link for the fully upgraded Darkmoon Card, so we can calculate the expected mana reduction from that.

If you don't take SoTF at all, and take a Cultivation build, you also can not afford to cast WG every 10 seconds on CD. That will exceed your 30 second mana regen budget by about 15%. You would be able to afford:

8-9 Rejuv casts with 0 WG usage
1 WG cast and about 5 Rejuv casts
2 WG casts and 1-2 Rejuv casts

Your best bet is probably to just cast WG once a minute when it lines up with Flourish and/or Essence of G'Hanir and otherwise cast Rejuv.

Any one that spouts on about WG being our most efficient heal therefore can always be cast on CD is just ignorant of the math; you can't afford to cast it that much and will have to restrict it to about once a minute in non SoTF builds and to only line up with SoTF in an SoTF build. Unless we get completely overpowered regen trinkets (and the 815 version of the DMC works out to about 2 more Rejuvs per 30 secs), that's going to be the reality.

[theburned]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=128710/d...ises&bonus=669

230-920 mana.

(about a 4th of last time I checked.)

Don't think its anywhere close to worth it, even if constant casting you would assume it to reduce mana costs by roughly 20-25k pr minute, so 120-150k over a 6 minute fight, assuming constant casting (which would be foolish, particularly with SotF.), not even close to worth it. Alchemy trinket looks solid, 96k mana + proc and static versa. With Horn of valor/chrono shard seems like a good second trinket option.
Elerethe renferal can be worth considering, and heightened senses.

[Tiberria]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=128710/d...ises&bonus=669

230-920 mana.

(about a 4th of last time I checked.)

Don't think its anywhere close to worth it, even if constant casting you would assume it to reduce mana costs by roughly 20-25k pr minute, so 120-150k over a 6 minute fight, assuming constant casting (which would be foolish, particularly with SotF.), not even close to worth it. Alchemy trinket looks solid, 96k mana + proc and static versa. With Horn of valor/chrono shard seems like a good second trinket option.

Yeah, the DMC maps out to about 4600 mana saved every 30 seconds given the typical spell casting listed above in a SoTF build. It will actually only give you enough mana for one extra Rejuv about once every 2.5 minutes which is pretty poor.

Of course, not everyone has or wants to take Alchemy.

[fallenangel-succ]

So you're advocating casting a less efficient heal (RJ) over a more efficient one (WG) for...reasons? That's the so called "contribute some level of HoTs", I assume. I didn't realize there's a HoT quota a raid has to have.
Druids luckily don't start boss fights with 0 mana. This means you can easily support this rotation, if the fight requires it. You also forgot innervate which scales with fight length.
I never said it was our most efficient heal. I said it was more efficient than RJ, and therefore worth prioritizing over it in a vacuum.

[Tiberria]

I think Cocoon of Enforced Solitude will end up being our top regen trinket option in raids. Yes, you have to sit in a 10 second channel every 2 minutes, but the nature of our spell usage - especially in an SoTF build - makes it fairly easy to accommodate 10 second windows (and one of them can be lined up with the channeled mana pot). With the Mythic version, you're looking at around 225k mana over a 6 minute fight. That, plus the 30 extra seconds of channeling will mean we can spam a lot harder outside of that.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're advocating casting a less efficient heal (RJ) over a more efficient one (WG) for...reasons? That's the so called "contribute some level of HoTs", I assume. I didn't realize there's a HoT quota a raid has to have.
Druids luckily don't start boss fights with 0 mana. This means you can easily support this rotation, if the fight requires it. You also forgot innervate which scales with fight length.
I never said it was our most efficient heal. I said it was more efficient than RJ, and therefore worth prioritizing over it in a vacuum.

You are assuming that we will be using Innervate on ourselves during progression. That probably won't be the case in a competent guild (at least 2 other specs gain a lot more from it than we do). And, no, you can't "easily support this rotation". Yes, you can run at a regen deficit to your regen rate to eat into your starting mana. However, run at a deficit of more than 10% for example, and you're OOM in 5 minutes, so it isn't like you can OMG SPAM WG ON CD EVERY CD for more than a few minutes without bottoming out.

I'm saying that in a real raid situation - regardless of what the HPM numbers say - you can't afford to just not cast Rejuvs period or just stand around with your thumb up your arse for 10 second windows every 10 seconds. You are going to need to at minimum maintain Rejuvs on tanks and probably Rejuvs on people that take priority damage or dip low. And guess what? If you cast WG on CD every 10 seconds, you can afford ZERO Rejuvs basically, and are already running a 15% regen deficit by doing just that. That's not going to be functional or realistic. You absolutely will have to throttle WG usage.

[Torty]

Resto Druid Stat Weight Weak Aura has been updated.
However it does not take into account T18 set bonuses as it is designed for legion.

Please delete your RDSW weak aura and import it from here:
https://wago.io/VkuAT-pHb

Is there an updated version of RDSW itself? I don't really like/need the visual of WeakAura, just interested in stat dumps after the raid.

[theburned]

What do you mean "doesn't do anything"? The moonkin form seems to be functional (+200% armor) and we get the extra spells.

Thanks, I found the original blue post. The change for feral your quote seems to refer is:

Remains to see how much is "significant", but shifting direct damage to bleeds is most likely affecting the time it takes to kill an average quest mob.

extra spells doing 2-3% more on single target, nothing aoe and 200% armor is not worth the time to shift in and out of boomkin form, sure its okay if you can sustain yourself with efflorence and CW, otherwise you will have to jump in and out the form far too often for it to be worth it.

[kooz]

I don't find sotf wg clunky at all nor inconvenient whatsoever, it's all on auto mode for me with a few tactical dream weaving

Incarnation is pretty much straight forward for the fights when you need to use it.

[Tiberria]

I don't find sotf wg clunky at all nor inconvenient whatsoever, it's all on auto mode for me with a few tactical dream weaving

Incarnation is pretty much straight forward for the fights when you need to use it.

Yeah, I don't get the argument that using SoTF properly is some kind of difficult/skill cap increasing concept. Sure, it involves slightly more thought than facerolling over Rejuv and hitting things like WG on CD, but that's kind of the idea; you shouldn't be able to do competitive output mostly spamming 1 button.

[Deleted]

feels like they removed the 35 % increased energy regeneration from feral affinity

[theburned]

feels like they removed the 35 % increased energy regeneration from feral affinity

Are you sure, doesnt really feel all that different, and dps doesnt feel like it has dropped significantly.
I noticed a slight difference though, but assumed it was from the change from chrono shard to horn of valor, my timings doesn't feel off at all though, so I would expect it to be more due to haste.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't find sotf wg clunky at all nor inconvenient whatsoever, it's all on auto mode for me with a few tactical dream weaving

Incarnation is pretty much straight forward for the fights when you need to use it.

Yeah, it isn't really hard at all, its just a stupid arguement that people who don't like the talent made.

[Deleted]

Your mana regen - at level 110 - is 46,639 / 5 seconds or 279,834 per 30 seconds excluding any regen trinkets but including all regen artifact traits.

Within those 30 seconds, you have to cast at minimum - regardless of Rejuv or WG usage:
1 x Efflo = 47,520 mana
2 x Lifebloom = 52,800 mana

That leaves you with 179,514 mana in a 30 second window for discretionary WG/Rejuv casts.

WG costs 70,312 mana, so - no - regardless of how efficient WG is - you absolutely can not afford to cast it every 10 seconds on CD even if you cast 0 Rejuvs.

If you take SoTF, - a SM - WG is 101,112 mana, so you would be able to afford basically 1 additional WG within that 30 second window if you cast 0 Rejuvs period. In any real situation where you can't just not cast anything for 10 seconds and need to contribute some level of HoTs, you're not going to be able to do that, so it is 100% reasonable to say - if you take SoTF, you pretty much can not cast WG outside of SoTF procs. If you only cast one SoTF-WG every 25 seconds (using Swiftmend as often as possible basically), that works out to 121,334 mana consumed per 30 seconds. That leaves you with 58,180 mana to play with. Rejuv is 22,000 mana, so you can afford to cast 2-3 of them every 30 seconds. Therefore, this is what we can afford to cast in an SoTF build in a 30 second window.

1 x Effo
2 x LB
1 x SM
1 x WG
2-3 x Rejuv

That is it - unless you get regen trinkets. Does anyone have the link for the fully upgraded Darkmoon Card, so we can calculate the expected mana reduction from that.

If you don't take SoTF at all, and take a Cultivation build, you also can not afford to cast WG every 10 seconds on CD. That will exceed your 30 second mana regen budget by about 15%. You would be able to afford:

8-9 Rejuv casts with 0 WG usage
1 WG cast and about 5 Rejuv casts
2 WG casts and 1-2 Rejuv casts

Your best bet is probably to just cast WG once a minute when it lines up with Flourish and/or Essence of G'Hanir and otherwise cast Rejuv.

Any one that spouts on about WG being our most efficient heal therefore can always be cast on CD is just ignorant of the math; you can't afford to cast it that much and will have to restrict it to about once a minute in non SoTF builds and to only line up with SoTF in an SoTF build. Unless we get completely overpowered regen trinkets (and the 815 version of the DMC works out to about 2 more Rejuvs per 30 secs), that's going to be the reality.

While everything you say is probably correct, I'm not sure why this matters? Since when do we compare #casts instead of HP healed?

[Tiberria]

While everything you say is probably correct, I'm not sure why this matters? Since when do we compare #casts instead of HP healed?

To debunk the idea that we can "cast WG on CD"?

[masterhorus8]

Yeah, I don't get the argument that using SoTF properly is some kind of difficult/skill cap increasing concept. Sure, it involves slightly more thought than facerolling over Rejuv and hitting things like WG on CD, but that's kind of the idea; you shouldn't be able to do competitive output mostly spamming 1 button.

With the change in Swiftmend not requiring Rejuv or Regrowth anymore, it most certainly does not feel clunky anymore. And previously it only felt that way for me due to trying to avoid using swiftmend on someone that was at full/near full health.

[theburned]

i have healed everything up to +15 in time without exploits

most of the time im using Talents#2221331 for max dps output.
i use crit/vers set + Horn of Valor for dps (boss) and switch to mastery/haste if i need healing (like this weeks affixes that boost trash)
if you know the dungeons you dont need guardian affinity.
you dont need i:ToL, the extra mastery stack from cultivation is more valuable.
abundance is nice for constant tank healing, 2-3 CW per pull is just better.

While I definitely agree that a dps build is necessary to push higher keys (and that the 2x21331 is the best talent build for dps.), for a lot of people who perhaps doesn't really need to push that extra dps, I would recommend a ToL build, and also worth considering the ToL for a bit more consistency/reliability in their tank healing.
I find it far more reliable in terms of getting you through those super tough packs.

[fallenangel-succ]

A rotation (*) of Eff, 2XLB every 30 seconds and SM + 2 WG in every SotF "window" (25 seconds, with Prosperity) costs you a net of 26K mana every 30s. This will run you oom, yes...in about 20 minutes. Saying you can't afford any RJ if you cast 2 WGs each window is straight up wrong.
I don't think it's a good idea to cast WG on CD because it won't be required. But restricting yourself to using it only when it aligns with Flourish or SotF or G'Hanir is needlessly restraining in the opposite matter. If WG will do good healing on targets that need it and can't be picked up by more passive tools (Aura of Mercy, HST, self healing) than it is a good cast even "naked". It certainly beats RJ spam for efficiency.

* disclaimer - I understand that looking at a fixed rotation like that is merely an approximation. This is just to give an idea of mana usage. You will never follow that to the letter, for many reasons.