[Shadow] Mythic Dungeons

[Kainslife]

Feel free to read my post again, because you're not actually trying to understand what I'm saying. I have done plenty of high mythic+ myself, I don't need to rewatch anything, especially not a video that lacks any kind of context. How good are the rest of the players? What's your/their gear like? Do you have any logs to provide context?

- If you're in a group with players with equal gear & skill, shadow will get destroyed on trash unless it's a pack of 3 - 4 mobs (you can see the same thing happening in the video you linked, so I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove)
- Shadow has one good AoE option in its talent tree and no good baseline AoE
- Multidotting is limited in its usefulness because it relies on: 1) amount of targets 2) how long the targets will live ; even if 8 targets live for 5 minutes, that's not going to be a good situation for multidotting, for example
- Voidform ramp up isn't ideal for some trash packs
- Good priority target damage is not necessarily that valuable - go watch some of Fragnance's vods where he does high mythic+ and look at how much focused damage they're actually doing

Shadow can do high mythic+, just as shadow was able to do gold CMs in WoD. That doesn't mean that shadow was good. Blizzard can do more to help shadow in that regard, because AoE is still very much a big part of mythic+ since your rewards are time based, and AoE will reduce your time on trash significantly even if it's not as big of an AoE fest as CMs were in WoD. It's. Still. Important.

And like I said - if you're doing AoE you're not doing the proper difficulty. Complaining that Shadow has garbage AoE and can't keep up in too-easy Mythic+ is like complaining that Shadow does no damage in a group of Mythic-geared raiders clearing a normal dungeon. Your entire thought process hinges on "We have to be AoEing down trash" when that isn't at all how it works in Mythic+ in Legion. If you have the availability to AoE things down then you need to bump the difficulty up.

If you're intentionally doing a lower difficulty than you're capable of then that's on you, not the class design.

[Ilir]

The whole "but if X class is better at aoe, go reroll it" argument is so stupid. No we won't reroll just because X class is better at aoe. If I play SP it's because I like SP. If I wanted to play lolmage I'd play lolmage. That doesn't mean I can't complain about the terrible state of Shadow's aoe.

Some people here need to realise that complaining about obvious design flaws does not mean the class is trash, unplayable or whatever.

Tanks outDPSing DPS on aoe should not be tolerable AT ALL. Tanks or DPS outHEALing HEALERS shouldn't be tolerable AT ALL. It's just bad design. In before "so you're saying tanks should do 0 dps and heal, heal should do 0 dps and dps should do 0 heal" stupid reply... No i'm not saying that. I'm saying that the respective roles should be BETTER than the others 2 roles at what they are meant to do.

A well played DPS should always be above healers and tanks in dps. A well played healer should always (unless obv there are no damage) be above tanks and dps in healing. (yeah yeah i know there are some specific cases about healing but whatever).

- - - Updated - - -

And like I said - if you're doing AoE you're not doing the proper difficulty. Complaining that Shadow has garbage AoE and can't keep up in too-easy Mythic+ is like complaining that Shadow does no damage in a group of Mythic-geared raiders clearing a normal dungeon. Your entire thought process hinges on "We have to be AoEing down trash" when that isn't at all how it works in Mythic+ in Legion. If you have the availability to AoE things down then you need to bump the difficulty up.

If you're intentionally doing a lower difficulty than you're capable of then that's on you, not the class design.

Did you even play mythic + on the beta or are you just pulling stuff out of nowhere ?

[Fennixx]

Feel free to read my post again, because you're not actually trying to understand what I'm saying. I have done plenty of high mythic+ myself, I don't need to rewatch anything, especially not a video that lacks any kind of context. How good are the rest of the players? What's your/their gear like? Do you have any logs to provide context?

- If you're in a group with players with equal gear & skill, shadow will get destroyed on trash unless it's a pack of 3 - 4 mobs (you can see the same thing happening in the video you linked, so I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove)
- Shadow has one good AoE option in its talent tree and no good baseline AoE
- Multidotting is limited in its usefulness because it relies on: 1) amount of targets 2) how long the targets will live ; even if 8 targets live for 5 minutes, that's not going to be a good situation for multidotting, for example
- Voidform ramp up isn't ideal for some trash packs
- Good priority target damage is not necessarily that valuable - go watch some of Fragnance's vods where he does high mythic+ and look at how much focused damage they're actually doing

Shadow can do high mythic+, just as shadow was able to do gold CMs in WoD. That doesn't mean that shadow was good. Blizzard can do more to help shadow in that regard, because AoE is still very much a big part of mythic+ since your rewards are time based, and AoE will reduce your time on trash significantly even if it's not as big of an AoE fest as CMs were in WoD. It's. Still. Important.

"Destroyed on trash", by who? Warriors and other bursty melees? Thats always been the case. One of melees advantage is short burst. By fire? Again, highly dependant on procs and CDs. Just try to go browse afflock's Legion thread (aff lock is closest to spriest when it comes to dot dot playstile)

[Deleted]

"Destroyed on trash", by who? Warriors and other bursty melees? Thats always been the case. One of melees advantage is short burst. By fire? Again, highly dependant on procs and CDs. Just try to go browse afflock's Legion thread (aff lock is closest to spriest when it comes to dot dot playstile)

Dude, the very first pack in the link you gave (Mythic+3) is 5 mobs and shadow priest is at the bottom of the meter with whooping 12% of total damage done which is lower than the tank (19%). On that same pack mage did almost 3 times more damage than the priest (34%) and so did elemental shaman (33%).
EDIT: Added shaman too.

[Gaidax]

Well I'll barge in, if some guys here think that AoE is not important in Mythic+, they are up for a surprise once they hit Mythic+.

AoE and Cleave is how you make the timers there, popping StM on boss and thinking "job done" is not cutting it. The biggest stumbling block there.is actually trash.

[Isentropy]

And like I said - if you're doing AoE you're not doing the proper difficulty. Complaining that Shadow has garbage AoE and can't keep up in too-easy Mythic+ is like complaining that Shadow does no damage in a group of Mythic-geared raiders clearing a normal dungeon. Your entire thought process hinges on "We have to be AoEing down trash" when that isn't at all how it works in Mythic+ in Legion. If you have the availability to AoE things down then you need to bump the difficulty up.

If you're intentionally doing a lower difficulty than you're capable of then that's on you, not the class design.

You keep saying that AoE is not a factor in high level mythic+, but it is. I'm not saying all trash is just an AoE fest, but it is still important to be able to AoE. I'm not complaining about shadow's bad AoE in the first place, I'm complaining about a lack of AoE tools primarily. That is my biggest problem.

But whatever, this is just devolving into circular reasoning so I'll just leave the thread at this point. The last thing I'll say is that your thought process is why Blizzard thinks it's okay to just never bother giving shadow any AoE tools in the first place, regardless of how strong shadow's AoE actually ends up being. As someone who won't even be doing a lot of mythic+ (as in, going for realm best prestige bullshit) I don't even care that much personally. It's a matter of principle to me, from a gameplay point of view, that I feel like shadow should have more AoE options.

[justflayin]

And like I said - if you're doing AoE you're not doing the proper difficulty. Complaining that Shadow has garbage AoE and can't keep up in too-easy Mythic+ is like complaining that Shadow does no damage in a group of Mythic-geared raiders clearing a normal dungeon. Your entire thought process hinges on "We have to be AoEing down trash" when that isn't at all how it works in Mythic+ in Legion. If you have the availability to AoE things down then you need to bump the difficulty up.

If you're intentionally doing a lower difficulty than you're capable of then that's on you, not the class design.

I'm honestly not sure if you've seen or played any high level mythic+ content but what you're saying is very misleading. There are SO many factors to keep in mind high hp, high dmg output on tanks, zone wide affixes, and timers are just a couple. There's even a trash req that you have to meet to even say it was completeled. Trash is the biggest time suck/stumbling block of mythic+.

Arguing that people AOEing need to be on a higher difficulty is just flat out wrong. You cannot single target trash in Mythic 10, like at all.

[Isentropy]

This is also relevant for those that didn't know by the way: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post41664620

[Fennixx]

Dude, the very first pack in the link you gave (Mythic+3) is 5 mobs and shadow priest is at the bottom of the meter with whooping 12% of total damage done which is lower than the tank (19%). On that same pack mage did almost 3 times more damage than the priest (34%) and so did elemental shaman (33%).
EDIT: Added shaman too.

So, you are comparing yourself to direct damage dealers, complaining they do more direct damage (not over time) than you?

You want Mage`s direct damage capabilites? What would you give in return? Off healing? Multidotting?

We all agree no one should be worse than a tank when it comes to trash DPS (but this is alreading happening on live and - guess what? - blizzard does not care). NO healer should be outhealed by a tank, but it happens quite often.

Can`t also compare to melee and (somewhat to) hunters. Cleave and dps on short lived is supposed to be their business.

[Deleted]

So, you are comparing yourself to direct damage dealers, complaining they do more direct damage (not over time) than you?

You want Mage`s direct damage capabilites? What would you give in return? Off healing? Multidotting?

Fine, let's indulge for a second this weird fantasy of yours that shadow priests should do less damage on trash than mages (seriously, if you have some Blizzard's memo on this, I'd love to read it). Why does it have to be 3 times less? Also why aren't elemental shamans down there with us on the damage meter but right next to the mages? They are a hybrid class just like priests.

We all agree no one should be worse than a tank when it comes to trash DPS

Well, at least we agree on something...

[Ilir]

So, you are comparing yourself to direct damage dealers, complaining they do more direct damage (not over time) than you?

You want Mage`s direct damage capabilites? What would you give in return? Off healing? Multidotting?

We all agree no one should be worse than a tank when it comes to trash DPS (but this is alreading happening on live and - guess what? - blizzard does not care). NO healer should be outhealed by a tank, but it happens quite often.

Can`t also compare to melee and (somewhat to) hunters. Cleave and dps on short lived is supposed to be their business.

What the fuck did I just read.

[britishbubba]

This is also relevant for those that didn't know by the way: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post41664620

I liked it more when I thought the rewards stopped increasing after 10+

[Biomega]

What the fuck did I just read.

What you always read.

SPs are not SUPPOSED to do X, because they suck at it. And they suck at it, of course, because they're not supposed to be good at it. QED.

Honestly, this is getting ridiculous at this point. People just throw assumptions around, "supposing" what who should be able to do and what not for no reason other than either the status quo, or some ridiculous notion of "class fantasy" that doesn't belong in a balancing discussion.

It should be trade-offs, not "you've always sucked at this". It should be 100% skill for 100% performance, not 125% skill for 70% performance, as SPs have been doing for the last... ever.

We would not be OP if we got some sort of decent, sustainable AoE. Heck we spent an expansion with Cascade and it was our ticket to #1 on ONE SINGLE FIGHT in the entire xpac - and it still didn't help make us any more popular in CM Gold, I might add.

[Fennixx]

Fine, let's indulge for a second this weird fantasy of yours that shadow priests should do less damage on trash than mages (seriously, if you have some Blizzard's memo on this, I'd love to read it). Why does it have to be 3 times less? Also why aren't elemental shamans down there with us on the damage meter but right next to the mages? They are a hybrid class just like priests.

Well, at least we agree on something...

Like I Said, direct damage, not damage. I dont care if spriest end up doing more dmg overall than mages, as I will probably have 2-4 toons (mostly casters) ready to Raid on 1st tier

You cant pretend to do more direct damage w/o homogenization and/or giving up on class fantasy. Sp's toolkit is supposed to have some DD spells, but focus on dots and channeled spells. Just look at aff locks. They also dont have burst aoe. No ranged dot-heavy class has.

As for shammy, they only have one somewhat weak dot. Its dmg is mostly direct.

- - - Updated - - -

What you always read.

SPs are not SUPPOSED to do X, because they suck at it. And they suck at it, of course, because they're not supposed to be good at it. QED.

Honestly, this is getting ridiculous at this point. People just throw assumptions around, "supposing" what who should be able to do and what not for no reason other than either the status quo, or some ridiculous notion of "class fantasy" that doesn't belong in a balancing discussion.

It should be trade-offs, not "you've always sucked at this". It should be 100% skill for 100% performance, not 125% skill for 70% performance, as SPs have been doing for the last... ever.

We would not be OP if we got some sort of decent, sustainable AoE. Heck we spent an expansion with Cascade and it was our ticket to #1 on ONE SINGLE FIGHT in the entire xpac - and it still didn't help make us any more popular in CM Gold, I might add.

Fire mages also were terrible for cm golds. And Blizzard didnt care. So....

- - - Updated - - -

On topic tho, more mind sear dmg wouldnt hurt. Some options on last talent tier would be good (I agree on legacy of the void being meh)

[Kainslife]

I'm honestly not sure if you've seen or played any high level mythic+ content but what you're saying is very misleading. There are SO many factors to keep in mind high hp, high dmg output on tanks, zone wide affixes, and timers are just a couple. There's even a trash req that you have to meet to even say it was completeled. Trash is the biggest time suck/stumbling block of mythic+.

Arguing that people AOEing need to be on a higher difficulty is just flat out wrong. You cannot single target trash in Mythic 10, like at all.

There's something between ST and AoE called cleave - that's what's king in Mythic+ dungeons. Shadow Priest is not only perfectly viable at cleave, it's one of the best classes in the game at it.

[Ilir]

Cleave ? I don't think you know what cleave mean.

Shadowpriest has multidot, it doesn't have cleave.

[Kainslife]

Cleave ? I don't think you know what cleave mean.

Shadowpriest has multidot, it doesn't have cleave.

Sure, if you want to be pedantic. Either way the point still stands - no one is sitting there AEing in Mythic+ dungeons.

[Ilir]

Sure, if you want to be pedantic. Either way the point still stands - no one is sitting there AEing in Mythic+ dungeons.

Cleave and multidot are totally not the same thing. You can't just use alternate one another.

Also, everyone is AEing in Mythic+. Again, I'm asking you : did you play on the beta ? Because while I do agree that SP can do Mythic+ "just fine", I don't agree with you saying they're that good.

[Kainslife]

Cleave and multidot are totally not the same thing. You can't just use alternate one another

Don't be pedantic. You know what I meant.

Also, everyone is AEing in Mythic+. Again, I'm asking you : did you play on the beta ? Because while I do agree that SP can do Mythic+ "just fine", I don't agree with you saying they're that good.

I didn't say that they were that good, I said that they were capable of holding their own. And anyone doing AEing in Mythic+ dungeons is outgearing the content. That's objectively true. If you can gather up enough mobs to AE them down then you're capable of doing a harder difficulty. There is plenty of evidence in the YouTube videos I've linked in this thread to show that they're more than capable of holding their own.

[Blofeld]

I'm rather new to Spriests, but won't the artifact trait "Sphere of Insanity" help somewhat? Or is it just too lackluster?