Clawing Shadows Stealth Nerfed

[Deleted]

So... we aren't allowed to move... we aren't allowed to be effective at long range... what do we do, then? Someone in the design team really hates deathknights.

I still don't get why the "class fantasy" of death knights ('not very fast but very hard to stop') mechanically results in 'completely immobile but you basically get nothing in return' (and a 1m cd 3s sprint as your ONLY BIT OF MOBILITY is basically immobile, nobody can argue with that).
Not only is this completely unbearable in pvp (where literally everybody else is sanic the hedgehog in comparison) but nowadays where pve encounters require so much mobility it's just insulting to be screwed over like this.

At least before the prepatch we had "can't be slowed below 70%" alongside a small passive speed boost (and a similarly weak sprint CD) which was very helpful and still fit the "class fantasy" the devs have.

...and damage is even nerfed in PvP, so I don't really understand. Almost no CC, low mobility, mediocre survivability, good damage but not top notch, why? :/

[RuneDK]

That's exactly how I feel when I compare it to my monk alt which is soooooooooo mobile and still has high DPS. I know I know monk has no debuffs that keep ticking when you are not in range and has not the high sustained AoE. But DK feels really lackluster in the mobility department with nothing to compensate for imho.

Well, how do you think frost DKs feel? you at least have a pet(or two) and a disease that does pretty decent damage on top of an ability(talented) that will still do okay ranged damage. Frost DKs...have a decent dot...and an ability that is utter shit unless there's a proc for those circumstances.

[cRawmode]

Well, how do you think frost DKs feel? you at least have a pet(or two) and a disease that does pretty decent damage on top of an ability(talented) that will still do okay ranged damage. Frost DKs...have a decent dot...and an ability that is utter shit unless there's a proc for those circumstances.

And that's exactly why I don't understand the decision of Blizz to nerf DA for UH instead of giving it to Frost too. I mean yeah, where's the benefit of being so slow? We don't get anything as compensation.

[Zetsumai258i]

Unholy is one of the best specs currently in beta....the clawing shadows nerf and DA removal isn't going to change that...However I do agree with the fact that they shouldve just given it to frost too.

If you take a look of these changes from a developers perspective there obvious response in removing Death Advance while removing 15 seconds off Wraith Walk is going to be that they "disliked the passive movement speed bonus that didn't add to the feel of gaining movement like Wraith Walk does." I can almost guarantee they will say something along those lines with regard to those changes.

With regards to the actual Clawing Shadow nerf from a developers perspective this seems to be tunneling us into using Castigator for more RNG-based gameplay since that is the lazy way to make a spec seem more interesting. However the flaw in this is that no one will consider Clawing Shadows if it does less damage then Scourge Strike as encounters should be designed so that a melee DPS can be within melee range of a mob with a high enough up time that Clawing Shadows will never be considered as we already have Outbreak + Epidemic to use from range and the difference in damage between Clawing Shadows and Scourge Strike over a full encounter would be too high unless there is a point in that encounter where there is nothing to melee for a long period of time which in itself would be a terrible encounter design.

So this change now makes Clawing Shadows a dead talent for the whole expansion unless they mess up and make an encounter that heavily favors ranged DPS while they could of simply have made Castigator or Unholy Frenzy more appealing through buffs which would give more talent gameplay choices and nerfed another part of Unholy such as the damage that comes from the Mastery: Dreadblade or an artifact talent to keep it in line with other specs.

[Kordan]

With the introduction on an artifact weapon they have to do a really good job on balancing things out. By far I feel as if I'm forced to abandon my DK and go with my priest alt instead. Low mobility is fine but for about class fantasy. Why make us naked without anything to outstand by they might've given survivability at least. And now even the Anti-magic shell doesn't really work. It's not fun anymore for the gains of runic power are so low and unstable. Just why?

[Wolfman31]

Anyone who's surprised Clawing Shadows got nerfed doesn't know Blizzard that well or wanted to live in denial that a nerf was coming. As soon as I saw that it was better than Scourge Strike and it was ranged, I knew it was only a matter of time before they nerfed it one way or the other. I won't be using it in PvE anymore, but I'll still be taking it for PvP though because the utility of it is better than what the other two options offer. But yeah, I'm not shocked at all. And losing the passive speed boost is no surprise either considering Unholy has the Abomination's Hook that pulls him to bosses and Lingering Apparition is going to be even better with the Wraith Walker buff so it's not the end of the world. They've been toning down melee mobility a lot lately so that the ones that do have it still like Windwalkers stand out more because of it. I'm also glad they buffed All Will Serve because it's more interesting than the other choices and it plays into our fantasy more, so that's fun.

[Drakonskyr]

What we have to make up for it is still very high dmg, at least on live. Sure it's a bummer but this is not a "sky is falling" nerf that puts us dead last again. I'm mostly worried about the possible change in stat weights.

That's right, we'll have high damage on target. In a fight with high mobility we'll be plodding along trying to catch up to almost everyone else. Without CS all we have right now to hit targets from a distance is Death Coil, which hits like a wet noodle, and Outbreak, which is really an aoe-disease-spreading tool, not a ranged ability in and of itself. I guess you can argue we have the abomination with Hook as well, but it's not like our pet does a lot of damage at the moment to begin with. It's not gonna be pretty if we have to move a lot, and lacking Death's Advance is gonna make that issue that much more prominent. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we're trash-tier now, far from it. But CS and DA alleviated some our mobility woes, so without them, certain situations are just going to be annoying.

[Sarkol]

This kind of nerfs is what makes me really question whether I will carry on maining a DK in legion. As a class we have suffered badly from our launch. We had to deal with so many knee jerk nerfs. Legion was for me a way for blizzard to fix the class and gives us something. Since as a class we have undeniably lost in mobility and raid CDs to be left with 1 grip or 2 grips for unholy, I was expecting that the DK dps will be by far (keyword) the best dps of all melee that have way higher mobility.

Alas this nerf, whilst many of you wont see it as a problem, I see it as a continuation of how DKs are perceived and where the dev wants to leave us in the dps ladder.

In the grand scheme of things, this is prepatch. it is supposed to not matter at all. But seeing how blizzard dealt with warlocks (quick nerfs) and now DKs, while they have been blind to fire mages and their 4p+class trinket, I feel that this is precisely a touch of what to expect from them in terms of DK treatment.

Dk's have been treated exceptionally well in the Legion Beta, and on top of that you're top tier damage. A really, really good talent gets adjusted and we get this sort of Melodrama. Like, you're seriously considering rerolling due to this? Hilarious.

[Deleted]

What i dont get is that epidemic does as much dmg as cs on 1 target

[Acidbaron]

Anyone who's surprised Clawing Shadows got nerfed doesn't know Blizzard that well or wanted to live in denial that a nerf was coming. As soon as I saw that it was better than Scourge Strike and it was ranged, I knew it was only a matter of time before they nerfed it one way or the other. I won't be using it in PvE anymore, but I'll still be taking it for PvP though because the utility of it is better than what the other two options offer. But yeah, I'm not shocked at all. And losing the passive speed boost is no surprise either considering Unholy has the Abomination's Hook that pulls him to bosses and Lingering Apparition is going to be even better with the Wraith Walker buff so it's not the end of the world. They've been toning down melee mobility a lot lately so that the ones that do have it still like Windwalkers stand out more because of it. I'm also glad they buffed All Will Serve because it's more interesting than the other choices and it plays into our fantasy more, so that's fun.

It's a flat damage increase that adds nothing to our toolset, it's as interesting as a talent that would give +1% damage with a few glitters since that's all the cosmetic is. On top of that i find the trend of Blizzard balancing abilities that don't require more effort from our end in terms of management to be on the same level as abilities that do worrying. Sure it's fine when you can pick something and forget about it, but when you're half in the expansion and there's absolutely nothing that requires your awareness anymore regarding rotation they might as wel give us a single ability, since it's dull and boring.

DD classes should have interesting choices, a tool set that punishes you if you make an error in terms of losing a significant amount of damage and this concept of lowering the skill ceiling every passing expansion between actives and passives is really is not going to do anyone any good.

And the argument of interesting encounters make up for it, no they don't.

[cujoe]

I am glad that they tuned down CS. CS is still a valid option for PvP arena (as soon as the dmg bug is fixed) and on bosses where there is a lot of movement and target switches. It should still be reasonably good for AoE in combination with defile once we don't have ring anymore and DA isn't the only sensible talent choice. And everybody who is echoing that it just does the same dmg as epidemic should not forget that there are artifact traits that buff CS/SS which don't exist for epidemic.

[Acidbaron]

What i dont get is that epidemic does as much dmg as cs on 1 target

Epidemic was already superior on two targets, now it's about the same. CS does 1 damage more per target. Which now raises the question when SS is fixed is it even worth using for AoE? CS that is.

[Bytch]

Hah, poor fool. That title is ours for the end of days...even if some specs gradually creep up on our claim to shame.

Warriors say hello. Warriors have been the most nerfed class through WoW history.

[Hallebarry]

Warriors say hello. Warriors have been the most nerfed class through WoW history.

Source on that?

[Deleted]

Epidemic was already superior on two targets, now it's about the same. CS does 1 damage more per target. Which now raises the question when SS is fixed is it even worth using for AoE? CS that is.

As soon ss hits both physical and shdw dmg when in dnd it will beat cs, i know epidemic does/did more dmg then cs if are multiple targets but still it doing same dmg as cs if only 1target gets hit seems bit weird to me.

- - - Updated - - -

I am glad that they tuned down CS. CS is still a valid option for PvP arena (as soon as the dmg bug is fixed) and on bosses where there is a lot of movement and target switches. It should still be reasonably good for AoE in combination with defile once we don't have ring anymore and DA isn't the only sensible talent choice. And everybody who is echoing that it just does the same dmg as epidemic should not forget that there are artifact traits that buff CS/SS which don't exist for epidemic.

Dint think about traits buffing it.

[Puzzony]

Source on that?

On being one of the only classes that reaches blizzcon XD Not to mention if you search back the rank1 teams in 2v2 or 3v3 through the history of arenas, warriors always were close to rank1. Hell, Bajheera reached rank16 or something like that in the matter of days last season. Warriors are rarely on a bad spot in pvp. If you want a real example, say Ret paladin, or elemental shaman for example, they are always shafted "because reasons" .

[Deleted]

Epidemic was already superior on two targets, now it's about the same. CS does 1 damage more per target. Which now raises the question when SS is fixed is it even worth using for AoE? CS that is.

Ofc its worth using for AoE, since epidemic has limited charges...
It just changes the priorities a bit.

[psyquest]

Dk's have been treated exceptionally well in the Legion Beta, and on top of that you're top tier damage. A really, really good talent gets adjusted and we get this sort of Melodrama. Like, you're seriously considering rerolling due to this? Hilarious.

I dont think you read me. The issue is not the irrelevant nerf of level 100 content. The issue is wether we can trust blizzard in actually stopping the yoyo/knee jerk nerfs and buffs of DKs. In simpler terms, and to help those with reading my mumbojumbo: can we trust blizzard to make the DK class good enough and appealing for high end raiding considering the current changes going into legion.

as a reminder: death advance is being removed, rendering DK (with Rets) the slowest moving melee.

May be you, in your (emphasis) opinion we are going to be fine. I believe dps wise we are doing well in beta. However and that is a BIG however, if we compare the dps of DKs with that of Demon Hunters, do you think DKs do enough damage compared to Demon Hunters (and other highly mobile melee) to justify taking them in high end pve or even playing one?

Now hopefully people and you will take the time to read this carefully and judge by yourselves.

[Sarkol]

I dont think you read me. The issue is not the irrelevant nerf of level 100 content. The issue is wether we can trust blizzard in actually stopping the yoyo/knee jerk nerfs and buffs of DKs. In simpler terms, and to help those with reading my mumbojumbo: can we trust blizzard to make the DK class good enough and appealing for high end raiding considering the current changes going into legion.

as a reminder: death advance is being removed, rendering DK (with Rets) the slowest moving melee.

May be you, in your (emphasis) opinion we are going to be fine. I believe dps wise we are doing well in beta. However and that is a BIG however, if we compare the dps of DKs with that of Demon Hunters, do you think DKs do enough damage compared to Demon Hunters (and other highly mobile melee) to justify taking them in high end pve or even playing one?

Now hopefully people and you will take the time to read this carefully and judge by yourselves.

Think DK's have been in a strong state for months now, and i'm pretty sure that DK's are better than basically all melee dps anyway, regardless of mobility? By the looks of it, you can more than justify the spot of a DK. This is a weird post. Lots of other melee are in a far worse spot that DK's. No DK will have to worry about a raid spot in Legion.

[Emophia]

Lame, don't think I'll be bothering with legion now, loved clawing shadows, never touching scourge strike again.

This is just like chi orbit where instead of making it marginally the worst talent in its line (deservedly as it's completely passive but still the strongest in the line) they just nerfed it into to being complete garbage instaed, they have no tact and no dignity when it comes to balancing.

Also removing unholy's addition run speed that the spec has had since wotlk, yeah no fuck off, class fantasy my ass.