[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Morally Grey Storm]

No one's stopping you.

What a relief.

I mean, I'm not saying any of what's been said is wrong, per se, but everyone might be blowing it a little bit out of proportion. The spec isn't literally unplayable

That is the thing I am keenly against.

Your main rebuttal to my (most often backed up and arguemented) claims is "it's not THAT BAD".
Why noone is saying "it is THAT GOOD" ?

Why are you in denial? Why are you so afraid to confess to yourselves the spec is in for a disaster?
Why would you settle for mediocre or less , in an umpteenth time?
is it some martyr complex? What are you so afraid of?
Snap out of it.

It's not good. That's the real issue. That's what must be delivered across to devs.

[Fredzilla]

I never said the spec wasn't bad. In fact, I seem to recall saying that none of you were wrong. You're just flying off the handle here a little too much. I never said I enjoy playing a subpar spec, though the current state of ret certainly won't stop me from playing it BECAUSE it has been so much worse before. All I said everyone constantly circle-jerking their anger here isn't accomplishing anything other than perpetuating literally the exact same discussion over and over and over again, a discussion that will bear no fruit.

If you're going to quote me, at least try to keep what I said in context, man. If you want to complain, and by all rights we all should, it would be best done in an avenue that could actually get some results. This isn't that.

And for my closing thought, saying "it's not that bad" wouldn't even be wrong if I had actually said it (since "it's not that bad" only equates to "I'm fine with it" when you make baseless assumptions). I said it "isn't literally unplayable", if you'll check your own quote, which is 100% accurate even though half the posts I've seen here seem to think otherwise.

[heerobya]

I must be one of the few that thinks ret is fun?

I also think Prot is fun, so I must be broken.

[Kinneas]

Flying in the face of popular opinion here but, having played a decent amount now on live and on the beta, I'm thoroughly enjoying Ret. Maybe the play style just suits me more than WoD's did, I don't know, but I've had a fun time so far and I've been performing pretty well in comparison to the rest of my guild. Oddly enough, I've had the most fun doing PVP - just scrub random bgs admittedly, but I've had fun messing around trying out different talents. On that note, I hope Holy Wrath stays forever (just not on our level 100 PvE talent tree).

Smarter people than I have discussed our issues at the moment, so I won't go into them again, suffice it to say we do have issues. But I'm hopeful for a few QoL tweaks along the way to smooth things out. I don't see that we'll ever truly lag behind on DPS, so I'm not worried from a numbers standpoint. If we're behind everyone else, we'll get a numbers buff and vice versa.

I understand why people who play in (or aspire to) the upper echelons of PvP are unhappy - here's hoping they throw in some useful stuff in the honor talents for you guys.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I never said the spec wasn't bad. In fact, I seem to recall saying that none of you were wrong.

It's either bad or it is good. It can't be both. None of us being wrong is an impossible scenario.
No middle grounds.
No bullshit excuses like "its not THAT BAD" .

You're just flying off the handle here a little too much.

I can assure you I am not.
This is me being collected and restrained on everyday basis.

Devs do deserve a certain amount of disdain , snark and disrespect, and since no one is wicked enough, so here I am.
But mistake me not, I am not doing it out of sheer love for being unrestrained, wailing douchebag.
I am doing it because I care for the spec, and even for the class eventho I despise Holybots with a passion, pussies the lot of em.

I never said I enjoy playing a subpar spec, though the current state of ret certainly won't stop me from playing it BECAUSE it has been so much worse before

So you are okay with being a settler?
You don't enjoy being subpar yet you will play subpar vecause - TADAAA! - it was worse(arguably) before.
That is your decision, and noone is stopping you.
Don't stop us voicing our concerns would you , then?

All I said everyone constantly circle-jerking their anger here isn't accomplishing anything other than perpetuating literally the exact same discussion over and over and over again, a discussion that will bear no fruit.

When people feel frustrated or agitated over certain topic, they ususally require discarding all the negative energy.
Unleashing it here is a soft way.

If you're going to quote me, at least try to keep what I said in context, man.

Feel free to point me at instances of me quoting you out of context, man.

and by all rights we all should, it would be best done in an avenue that could actually get some results. This isn't that.

Now this is where the fun starts.
We have this little thing going on the Beta US forums of Battle.net service.
It's called Beta Legion Feedback.
There is that little, unimpressive thread dedicated to Retribution feedback. It consists of measly 120+ pages.
It has not recieved any dev attention yet.

Or we could Tweet at devs via, well, Twitter.
Number of us did commit to it.
Care to know the results?

And for my closing thought, saying "it's not that bad" wouldn't even be wrong if I had actually said it (since "it's not that bad" only equates to "I'm fine with it" when you make baseless assumptions). I said it "isn't literally unplayable", if you'll check your own quote, which is 100% accurate even though half the posts I've seen here seem to think otherwise.

I am not making no "baseless assumptions" , thank you.

What you said just now, though, is you are going to play a spec that is subpar and which you won't enjoy but will play nonetheless on the basis of "IVE HAD WORSE", which will be my closing thought.

[Fredzilla]

It's either bad or it is good. It can't be both. None of us being wrong is an impossible scenario.
No middle grounds.
No bullshit excuses like "its not THAT BAD" .

1. You're putting words in my mouth.

The spec isn't literally unplayable, and for everyone outside of the top like 1% of raid guilds can find a way to make it work in their own situation if they really want to.

So you are okay with being a settler?
You don't enjoy being subpar yet you will play subpar vecause - TADAAA! - it was worse(arguably) before.
That is your decision, and noone is stopping you.
Don't stop us voicing our concerns would you , then?

2. Where did I say you should stop voicing your concerns? Oh right, nowhere.

I'm all for making the devs see what they did wrong (and keep doing wrong), but whining in circles here isn't going to help anything. Just makes people not want to read the forums, probably.

2a. Also, where in my post did I give my reasons for saying why I'm continuing to play ret? Oh right, nowhere. You're just making

baseless assumptions

When people feel frustrated or agitated over certain topic, they ususally require discarding all the negative energy.
Unleashing it here is a soft way.

3. That's all fine and well, but Leyru is being kind enough to try and put together a thread for the PvE ret theorycrafting/guide-related things in the absence of a Solsa thread, and this certainly isn't helping that end.

Feel free to point me at instances of me quoting you out of context, man.

4. See 1, 2, 2a

Now this is where the fun starts.
We have this little thing going on the Beta US forums of Battle.net service.
It's called Beta Legion Feedback.
There is that little, unimpressive thread dedicated to Retribution feedback. It consists of measly 120+ pages.
It has not recieved any dev attention yet.

Or we could Tweet at devs via, well, Twitter.
Number of us did commit to it.
Care to know the results?

5. Do you think this is my first time around the block? Is your memory so short-term that you don't recall me being a part of all our conversations leading into at least the last 3 xpacs? While making an admittedly baseless assumption of my own here, I'd wager I've played ret at least as long as you have if not longer. I know exactly how they treat most of our feedback. But if you don't give them that feedback, regardless of what you think will come of it, nothing will happen. Do they have people look at these forums? I'd be surprised if they didn't. But this still isn't the place to get your voice heard by them.

I am not making no "baseless assumptions" , thank you.

What you said just now, though, is you are going to play a spec that is subpar and which you won't enjoy but will play nonetheless on the basis of "IVE HAD WORSE", which will be my closing thought.

6a. See 2a again, as well is this own section of quote since I still never said why I'm continuing to play ret despite the state it's in. I won't deny that I said it was worse before, but that's nothing more than a fact related to the topic at hand. I've invested far too much time in my paladin by this point to make my main anything else, and my paladin has always been ret first and foremost and won't be changing for the reason just given as well as the facts that I don't particularly want to tank or heal, which really only leaves me with one option.

Edit: I do realize that I've fallen a bit into pointless posting that doesn't further the goal of this thread, so I'll refrain from any more lest I truly become what I campaign against.

[Morally Grey Storm]

1. You're putting words in my mouth.

No.

2. Where did I say you should stop voicing your concerns? Oh right, nowhere.

You did not literally say that, but you are trying to secure bounds to how and what we should voice our concerns, and where.
Don't.

2a. Also, where in my post did I give my reasons for saying why I'm continuing to play ret? Oh right, nowhere.

Didn't you say you are not enjoying Failegion Ret?
Didn't you say you are going to play it nonetheless ?
2+2 = 4.
Not enjoying yet opting to carry on means you are settling for this "spec".

3. That's all fine and well, but Leyru is being kind enough to try and put together a thread for the PvE ret theorycrafting/guide-related things in the absence of a Solsa thread, and this certainly isn't helping that end.

I'm glad for Leyru.
So while we're at it, why don't you stop discussing me or the way we argue or voice our opinions, and, start, well, discussing the topic?

4. See 1, 2, 2a

Saw to it.
Didn't agree one bit.

5. Do you think this is my first time around the block? Is your memory so short-term that you don't recall me being a part of all our conversations leading into at least the last 3 xpacs? While making an admittedly baseless assumption of my own here, I'd wager I've played ret at least as long as you have if not longer. I know exactly how they treat most of our feedback. But if you don't give them that feedback, regardless of what you think will come of it, nothing will happen. Do they have people look at these forums? I'd be surprised if they didn't. But this still isn't the place to get your voice heard by them.

So if your memory is not as short-term as mine, would please kindly recall if I was right or not when I said Cata Ret would be shit?
Was I right or not when I said MoP Ret would be shit?

In order to save you from making "baseless assumptions" I'll have you know I started playing somewhere around end of S3 or S4 .

I get you point here. I never had a tweeter till July 2016. I started tweeting WatchDev, Celestalon, yet to see response. 3 weeks pending.
And then there's this little thing: they barely ever touch other Battle.net region subforums. I hail from the snowy lands of Motherland, therefore I am restricted to posting only on EU or RU region subforums.

And what about other lucky guys like me? What about KZ feedback? What about Ukraine feedback? What about the whole fething post-ussr feedback?)
Obviously I'm trailing somewhere off there, but I hope you get the point I'm trying to make

Ahem. Yes, this place might not be the perfect place to draw the attention from bzz. But you can find kindred spirits here, kindred minds, you can discuss here, seek for solutions, new ideas.
You can find here people that will bring all our strivings to them via Beta forums etc, so why the feth not?

6a. See 2a again, as well is this own section of quote since I still never said why I'm continuing to play ret despite the state it's in. I won't deny that I said it was worse before, but that's nothing more than a fact related to the topic at hand

so you are going to settle for this level out of being used to, accustomed to?
Choice is yours. I'm in no position to order you or tell what to do. What Ican, though, is try to put some perspective into your or the next Joe's view.

I've invested far too much time in my paladin by this point to make my main anything else, and my paladin has always been ret first and foremost and won't be changing for the reason just given as well as the facts that I don't particularly want to tank or heal, which really only leaves me with one option.

This part we share, I suppose.

[Schattenlied]

but we made it through that eventually.

Eventually is the problem.. we, paying customers, shouldn't have to wait for a month or 4 after the product launches for it to get fixed when we have been telling them for 8 months already in alpha and beta (when this shit is actually supposed to get fixed) that it didn't work.

That is why people are so frustrated and upset right now... We have been telling them since last year that this stuff doesn't work and they ignored pretty much all of our feedback... We, and no other class/spec for that matter, should have to wait months after launch, when a whole raid tier may already be done with, to get shit fixed that should have been squared away before beta ended.

[Fredzilla]

Good thing it's not up to you what the point of my posts are, then. I get to decide what is or isn't out of context, and when assumptions you make from those context/contextless points have any base or not. I never said I was or wasn't enjoying the spec, though you sure seem convinced that I did somewhere. I've merely spoken about it's relative performance, which could objectively be both better and worse than what it is, regardless of what you may feel, Mr. Trump. My continuing to play the spec has nothing to do with "settling" and has literally (and I mean this every bit by the dictionary definition of the word "literally", which some people seem to confuse with "figuratively" more and more these days) everything to do with the actual reasons I explicitly stated.

And for what it's worth, I've been raiding in some not-extremely-clueless-and-casual manner since about mid-BC.

I have no problems with concerns being voiced. They certainly should be as long as there's merit to them (which is the case for most of what we're discussing). But the last few pages have been the same post over and over about how bad ret is and how every other similar spec is better and how everyone should just reroll because of that. If there's new information, or some genuinely new perspective about what and why things are the way they are, then great, but this thread has been beating a dead horse for awhile now it seems and it's only page 9 and Legion isn't even out yet (the thing we're all currently "balanced" for). Letting off steam is one thing, but turning the thread into an echo-chamber-circle-jerk of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "we could not possibly suck more, everyone go warrior" isn't productive.

Ret isn't in a good place now, and we should definitely try to have the spotlight shined on our problems, but beyond that, all I'm saying is maybe leave the doomsday attitudes to the npc's handing out pamphlets in stormwind.

- - - Updated - - -

Eventually is the problem.. we, paying customers, shouldn't have to wait for a month or 4 after the product launches for it to get fixed when we have been telling them for 8 months already in alpha and beta (when this shit is actually supposed to get fixed) that it didn't work.

That is why people are so frustrated and upset right now... We have been telling them since last year that this stuff doesn't work and they ignored pretty much all of our feedback... We, and no other class/spec for that matter, should have to wait months after launch, when a whole raid tier may already be done with, to get shit fixed that should have been squared away before beta ended.

I wholeheartedly agree, but there's a big difference between meaningful discussions toward that end and what I've been seeing these last few pages, and blizz will certainly be less inclined to listen to any given point if it's being whined at them instead of thoughtfully and reasonably (and calmly) stated to them with appropriate data to back up the claims.

[Morally Grey Storm]

It would be nice if we could somehow divine if bzz is inclined to listen to Retribution concerns at all.
One might assume they are supposed to, but at the same time listening to us or even acknowledging us is not a must.


Even the simplest "we hear you lot, sorting stuff out" would certainly soothe most of us.
It's the ignore that gets through the most.

[Ianus]

Good thing it's not up to you what the point of my posts are, then. I get to decide what is or isn't out of context, and when assumptions you make from those context/contextless points have any base or not. I never said I was or wasn't enjoying the spec, though you sure seem convinced that I did somewhere. I've merely spoken about it's relative performance, which could objectively be both better and worse than what it is, regardless of what you may feel, Mr. Trump. My continuing to play the spec has nothing to do with "settling" and has literally (and I mean this every bit by the dictionary definition of the word "literally", which some people seem to confuse with "figuratively" more and more these days) everything to do with the actual reasons I explicitly stated.

And for what it's worth, I've been raiding in some not-extremely-clueless-and-casual manner since about mid-BC.

I have no problems with concerns being voiced. They certainly should be as long as there's merit to them (which is the case for most of what we're discussing). But the last few pages have been the same post over and over about how bad ret is and how every other similar spec is better and how everyone should just reroll because of that. If there's new information, or some genuinely new perspective about what and why things are the way they are, then great, but this thread has been beating a dead horse for awhile now it seems and it's only page 9 and Legion isn't even out yet (the thing we're all currently "balanced" for). Letting off steam is one thing, but turning the thread into an echo-chamber-circle-jerk of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "we could not possibly suck more, everyone go warrior" isn't productive.

Ret isn't in a good place now, and we should definitely try to have the spotlight shined on our problems, but beyond that, all I'm saying is maybe leave the doomsday attitudes to the npc's handing out pamphlets in stormwind.

- - - Updated - - -



I wholeheartedly agree, but there's a big difference between meaningful discussions toward that end and what I've been seeing these last few pages, and blizz will certainly be less inclined to listen to any given point if it's being whined at them instead of thoughtfully and reasonably (and calmly) stated to them with appropriate data to back up the claims.

watch f feedback about ret on official forums on every f build and then tell ppl it isnt shit as ppl say it is .. even f solsacra gave up on posting on offical thread on ret feedback forum because blizzard doesn't give a f shit about what ppl are saying and just ignoring like for 6 months and more(its class fantasy guys, yeah right).. ppl that defend this are f clueless at best or they troll on purpose

[Deleted]

It would be nice if we could somehow divine if bzz is inclined to listen to Retribution concerns at all.
One might assume they are supposed to, but at the same time listening to us or even acknowledging us is not a must.


Even the simplest "we hear you lot, sorting stuff out" would certainly soothe most of us.
It's the ignore that gets through the most.

Well, without trying to sound too salty, when they did respond it went something like 'It's an awesome ability; what wrong with you?'

[Morally Grey Storm]

Well, without trying to sound too salty, when they did respond it went something like 'It's an awesome ability; what wrong with you?'

A fine point, good sir

[Deleted]

Ret paladin is absolutely fine. Prot paladin is absolutely fine. Holy Paladin is a bit bland, but fine.

[Snegovik]

I must be one of the few that thinks ret is fun?

I also think Prot is fun, so I must be broken.

You are not broken, lol being "fun" is an opinion, it is your opinion hence it is correct from your PoV. But i think most of ppl here are talking about Ret not being viable @ higher end of competitive game whether it is high CR RBGs, top tier arena comp, or mythic progression (just guess about the last one, since i dont raid)

[Ianus]

Ret paladin is absolutely fine. Prot paladin is absolutely fine. Holy Paladin is a bit bland, but fine.

yeah right fine dmg wise but mechanically retarded

[Demsi]

Ret paladin is absolutely fine. Prot paladin is absolutely fine. Holy Paladin is a bit bland, but fine.

I disagree, Ret and Prot are not fine, not the worst version of those spec for sure, but there is still work needed to be done, The talents more specifically.

Prot has it worse tho, atleast Ret has a core gameplay that works, it's just that the talents gives nothing more to the spec in terms of gameplay, not a single talent in the ret tree is going to change the way you play.

Prot has neither a good core gameplay or a good talent tree.

[Taeldorian]

Glad to see people sticking to their mains in here. Doesn't mean much, but I respect those who do that. I'm doing the same (staying holy). Paladin master race.

I do hope they make SoV undispellable. Anyone worth there salt won't let you keep that shield up, so it's basically pointless.

[Snegovik]

Glad to see people sticking to their mains in here. Doesn't mean much, but I respect those who do that. I'm doing the same (staying holy). Paladin master race.

I do hope they make SoV undispellable. Anyone worth there salt won't let you keep that shield up, so it's basically pointless.

Yep, you can pretty much remove it from your task bar when facing mages in Arena, even now on live i notice more and more mages in skrimishes are starting to SS SoV, other half don't know that they can SS it yet, but it will soon change =(. Might have to macro /cancel spell into SoV macro as ppl do now for freedom, Prob pop it for 1-2 global to abs inc burst and then cancel it when facing mage comps in arena.

I feel like best Ret comps will be with Casters in 3s such as Ret/UA/Healer or Ret/Shadow/Healer pretty much any comp where we have to sit on melee dps and peel from our team, cuz Ret won't be chasing those healers aroundd cuz u know, that thing called 0 mobility), i mean Ret/Arms or Ret/UH can work at lower levels if u tunnel healer but higher in cr i think ppl will just peel you.

P.S. DH coming out August 9th =)

[Puzzony]

New build inbound, let's see what changes are happening.