Have addons indirectly ruined the game ?

[Deleted]

I s'pose you're right. Just seems very awkward.

Yeah looking back it kinda is. Before I started using mouseover macros I kinda had little to no problems with it, but nowadays it feels incredibly awkward.

[Timberwind]

That was not the intention of this post. What I was saying is, one would be stupid to pursue in a serious path towards the top without using everything available to them.
If more that 80% of players are using this. It is considered a tool and not an unfair advantage since majority of players play with it.

Your assumption is that 80% of players use this add-on. If you'd look at the total downloads, then split it roughly in half for redownloads or updates. then you'd notice that the actual usage is tiny.

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No addon does 75% of the game for you .

Must not have done many 3's, that moment when you spend 55 seconds CC'd while they 3v2 your team. You start to notice when things are a little "too perfect"when you can't even get a single global between 3 cyclones, 5 second stun, blind, Hunter trap, then back into the cyclone again.

[Necroofeelya]

Your assumption is that 80% of players use this add-on. If you'd look at the total downloads, then split it roughly in half for redownloads or updates. then you'd notice that the actual usage is tiny.

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Must not have done many 3's, that moment when you spend 55 seconds CC'd while they 3v2 your team. You start to notice when things are a little "too perfect"when you can't even get a single global between 3 cyclones, 5 second stun, blind, Hunter trap, then back into the cyclone again.

Sure. I will agree that many of those are redownloads. The usage is definitely not tiny. There are many other factors that come to play here. Such as how many of them have curse client? Which updates add ons automatically? Not counting as a site download. The last known statistic was pre blizzcon that they released the info of legion. Which was 5.5 million subs.
Now how many of those are not even of a level to utilize such addons properly? Probably not that many
But also, how many of those subs are people that actually care to progress in PvP or PvE. A large portion could just be casual players.

Now, to that point of you being CC'd constantly. Sounds like this is the reason why you hate add ons. I will agree, being chain locked CC'd is a horrible and frustrating experience. Fact is though, that is not addons that are doing that to you. That is just a team that knows communication well and they sync good together.
Because let me tell you. WoW has implemented macros and raid frames that would still allow that to happen even if add ons did not exist.
Because this team utilized the tools given to them.
NO addon would do that for you. I repeat. None
At least I don't use add ons for that. I am simply able to make tab target marcros that are already provided by the game to make chain CCing possible.
Its a strategy. and when a strategy beats yours it does not mean something is being made easier. It just means that the other team is doing it better.
If you are click targeting on a raid frame, enemy player, or tab targeting on them. Sure, you will have an even chance of winning against that team
Go up against a team that utilizes macros that are already part of the game to target spells against "Raidframe1, Raidframe2, etc" Your toast.
Addons that mimick that same thing only exists to have a different feel and look to them, but function exactly like the ones that are already in-game.

Addons and Macros are a tool because you STILL have to master them. Let me tell you, when I first started dabbling with the more complex macros. It was not a walk in the park. It took some time to understand the feel of them. Sometimes my macros did not work because I was up against people that understood my build and rotation and were still a step ahead of me.

An addon/macro is only as good as the player behind it. Period.

[cFortyfive]

Must not have done many 3's, that moment when you spend 55 seconds CC'd while they 3v2 your team. You start to notice when things are a little "too perfect"when you can't even get a single global between 3 cyclones, 5 second stun, blind, Hunter trap, then back into the cyclone again.

Yes and even if we'd assume for a second that's all happening because of normal addons and not because of certain tools going against the tos exactly nothing would happen if they weren't controlling their chars.
If it was that easy as a result of addons existing why aren't there more #1 capable and progressing through newly released raids within a week if all of their personal input merely accounts for 25% of the end result to use the number cited by the op ?

[Timberwind]

NO addon would do that for you. I repeat. None


An addon/macro is only as good as the player behind it. Period.

So you're saying Gladeus and weakauras don't put a timer on your screen that tells you exactly when someone trinkets, when they are dispelled, that they will come free at your cast time in 3. 2. 1. You're saying that these don't give you the necissary information to pull this off?
I'd say that you were incorrect. I've seen the addons that put giant arrows on the enemy healer, and that allow you to use mouseover macros without having to know the name of your target. This may be a "skill" but its not one defined by the mechanics that the game offers you in its current state. If they were to remove all addons and macros, there would be a precious few who could rise to Gladiator because they are used to having more information at thier disposal than what most players have. It is 100% possible for a group of people who know thier class's so well they don't need some of the timers, but knowing in advance when an enemy is using abilities that could potentially kill you is rediculous.
A good example is, one of my buddies shared a macro through his addons that would auto target a rogue using Killing spree and pop up a his stun to stop it before they could get 2 cycles off. (Like a special action button big)

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Yes and even if we'd assume for a second that's all happening because of normal addons and not because of certain tools going against the tos exactly nothing would happen if they weren't controlling their chars.
If it was that easy as a result of addons existing why aren't there more #1 capable and progressing through newly released raids within a week if all of their personal input merely accounts for 25% of the end result to use the number cited by the op ?

Last I checked you couldn't chain CC a boss.
PvE is very diff, most people don't progress at all until DBM has a chance to update the fights and fatboss comes out with a video explaining the fight. There are accepted strategies because they end up being the most "dummy proof". World first guilds most likely have had some advanced play on the Beta where they've perfected what they want to do before the content is even live. They do it without add-ons. World/Server first normally happens within days of the contents release. Then SLOWLY other guilds/characters start to filter through. To be fair, most guilds in the game haven't made it through Iskar or other fights because they simply can't follow the mechanics even if an addon makes it so you only need to do 5% of the work. Archimonde was a 30 wipe progression for my guild, and wasn't very difficult imo, just the last phase with lots of things coming at you. and that was before the nerf (the one where normal didn't get Wrought Choas anymore)

[cFortyfive]

Last I checked you couldn't chain CC a boss.
They do it without add-ons.

I actually meant glad or #1 pvp capable players if all it took was the right addons. Also you are absolutely wrong on them not using addons - they have weak auras for everything. I am not sure if I am buying 30 wipes for archimonde mythic but still if that's the case I suppose you must have been prodigies in previous raids as well as again I don't see any evidence for those raids becoming easier.

[Kokolums]

Without addons to track stuff, id use notepad more. Going back further in time, id write things down on paper or keep a booklet with information. It might be cool if the collectors edition came with a journal to log your stats and gear in, but now that smart phones are everywhere it seems moot.

[PenguinChan]

I wonder how many people would be alright if Macros let you tie entire rotations to a singular button. A lot of PVE classes have simplistic rotations forcefully spread out, but things like RIFT have shown simple CD differences matter little, and just Macroing it all (Except key abilities) would be just as efficient.

[Relapses]

I am not sure if I am buying 30 wipes for archimonde mythic but still if that's the case I suppose you must have been prodigies in previous raids as well as again I don't see any evidence for those raids becoming easier.

He's lying. This is his Warrior and he's 6/13M. (Proof: He mentions having a 733 Warrior.)

But you know, add-ons 2 stronk, game 2 ez. :^)

[Deleted]

I don't think addons ruined the game or anything; that being said some of the more recent developments in terms of addons definitely have a negative impact and probably need to be reigned in one way or another.

Mostly talking about Archimonde-style addons, with the most evident comparison being that 3D addon during ICC eventually rendered unuseable as well.

[Nahela]

This is Bullshit all encounters are killed without these counters in dbm/bw.....

If you really think world first guilds complete encounters without addons like that, you're 100% incorrect. Many of them write their own, but they are 100% using addons like this. It's simply not feasible at this level of complexity to do exceptionally precise timing without them, especially at low gear levels where world first guilds are.

[Relapses]

I don't think addons ruined the game or anything; that being said some of the more recent developments in terms of addons definitely have a negative impact and probably need to be reigned in one way or another.

Mostly talking about Archimonde-style addons, with the most evident comparison being that 3D addon during ICC eventually rendered unuseable as well.

AVR was a little bit more egregious than the Archi WAs, imo. Although I think it'd be pretty easy for Blizzard to just disable the API functionality of the Archi WAs if they thought they were particularly damaging to the game.

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If you really think world first guilds complete encounters without addons like that, you're 100% incorrect. Many of them write their own, but they are 100% using addons like this. It's simply not feasible at this level of complexity to do exceptionally precise timing without them, especially at low gear levels where world first guilds are.

You can actually see in Paragon's first Mythic Archimonde kill how the strategy they used to handle Wrought Chaos was much different than the simple WA which became extremely popular as more guilds began defeating him.

[Rhoe]

It has brought us both ways. Mythic is a very challenging mode and LFR is not. I don't think LFR is bad, but I can use it as an example of the game becoming easier.

Are you saying addons brought us LFR? I don't see why that would be the case. Please explain.

He's lying. This is his Warrior and he's 6/13M. (Proof: He mentions having a 733 Warrior.)

What makes you think he's talking about mythic? In his very next sentence he says his 30 wipes was before the nerf to normal mode. Also his comments about people failing Iskar mechanics doesn't make sense in a mythic context either since it's pretty much a free kill if you can handle Gorefiend.

[Relapses]

Are you saying addons brought us LFR? I don't see why that would be the case. Please explain.

What makes you think he's talking about mythic? In his very next sentence he says his 30 wipes was before the nerf to normal mode. Also his comments about people failing Iskar mechanics doesn't make sense in a mythic context either since it's pretty much a free kill if you can handle Gorefiend.

Ah, yeah. I was just replying to the guy I quoted who misinterpreted him. RIP.

[Nahela]

You can actually see in Paragon's first Mythic Archimonde kill how the strategy they used to handle Wrought Chaos was much different than the simple WA which became extremely popular as more guilds began defeating him.

I'm not saying it never happens, but for many mechanics those guilds are writing their own trackers. Simply put, the vast majority of guilds would be incapable of completing those kinds of encounters without the use of addons.

[Relapses]

I'm not saying it never happens, but for many mechanics those guilds are writing their own trackers. Simply put, the vast majority of guilds would be incapable of completing those kinds of encounters without the use of addons.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just added that video as emphasis for what you were saying.

[Nahela]

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just added that video as emphasis for what you were saying.

Fair enough!

[HappyCola]

I'd argue BigWigs isn't professionally done. Just because it's mostly bugless doesn't mean it's professionally done. They lack a fair amount of polish that professionally done applications have.

Based on what? Looking at the UI? Have you looked at the code? Have you talked to the developers? Have you followed how it's developed? Because I have done all those things (granted few years back), and I can tell you it's most certainly professionally done to a higher degree than Blizzard's Lua code, for example.

I'd bet you a large sum of money that given the same amount of time -- Blizzard's team could outperform the same thing people do in their spare time given they do it full-time and with 5 additional people (your argument here) and you'd easily see far more polish than what you see now as well as additional features and customization if they were allowed to.

So how come Blizzard's Lua code is such garbage then? Seriously, go take a look. For someone that claims to be a professional developer, you seem to have quite big delusions about what software development actually is like in the real world. Small teams working on something they're passionate about on their spare time (which can easily add up to more hours than a full time job) can easily accomplish far more than a half-hearted team just doing their job.

It's quite silly to compare something someone does as a part-time side project to anything anyone does full time -- which is what you just did.

I guess you have never worked on open source software then.

[Deleted]

in a way, yes. mainly boss mechanics. Game's at a state where the devs create encounters with addons in their minds, thus making them actually pretty complex. keep an eye out for this, do that, dont stand in there, dps now, not now, dps later, stand in there, dont stand in there, turn around 180 degree, turn around the other side ..

and your average DBM will tell you exactly what to do and what not to.

[ElDoorO]

Based on what? Looking at the UI? Have you looked at the code? Have you talked to the developers? Have you followed how it's developed? Because I have done all those things (granted few years back), and I can tell you it's most certainly professionally done to a higher degree than Blizzard's Lua code, for example.



So how come Blizzard's Lua code is such garbage then? Seriously, go take a look. For someone that claims to be a professional developer, you seem to have quite big delusions about what software development actually is like in the real world. Small teams working on something they're passionate about on their spare time (which can easily add up to more hours than a full time job) can easily accomplish far more than a half-hearted team just doing their job.



I guess you have never worked on open source software then.

You seem very defensive for some reason and I'm not seeing any actual productive responses from you.

If you judge a product by how clean the code is and not the net result then you've never worked in the field professionally or worked at a level very high.
It's nice to have clean code -- it's something to be proud of but clean code does not dictate a professional level release. There is more to being called professional than just clean code. It's the whole product, top to bottom. Not just the parts you have an erection over.