Fealing weak as a brewmaster?

[Deleted]

Is any one else experiencing the same feeling? sometimes I just feel helpless after using my brews and possibly fortifying brew. Not much left to do unless there's orbs up. Just hope for healers to catch up. I've been trying all of the other tank classes and they all feel like they have more control over the damage intake. I'm not sure if this is actual numbers or just the feeling I get from playing it. I'm curious if it changes going into legion and getting our hands on the artifact. Is legion content actually based on being on low hp a lot? because if that's the case I can see it feeling more active. Also am I the only one who has a hard time seeing the orbs for time to time? I'm tracking the amount of them but is there some way to see more clearly where they are?
Any help or information would be nice, I'm feeling quite sad as I have mained brewmaster since the release and I don't want to leave that char behind. I'm sorry if this has been brought up before. I couldn't find much about it.

[Rilas13]

This has been a fairly common topic in the right places.

There are a few things at work here, firstly the redesign of how all tanks work in 7.0 forward. Which to sum up is that tanks are less self sufficient than they were previously. They want tanks to have some reliance on healers.

Another factor is the way BrM plays now. It had a significant revision to its general playstyle and coming from 6.2 it can feel bad. BrM had incredibly huge shields and for the last year we have been trained to think that if we are not at full health with a meaty shield and a 100% Purify then we are an inch from death. This is no longer the case.

Here are some links to help get a better idea of how to make them work:

• Icy Veins Guide
• Sunnier's Guide

To answer your original question though, I think BrM may be one of the most powerful tanks in Legion in its current state. But it will take some getting used to.

[Deleted]

Thanks a lot for the reply, that does sound promising and you might be right and I just have to spend some time adjusting to the new. Unfortunately timewalking hasn't helped with that. Have you played the BrM in the legion beta? If not, is there anyone else who has? I'm very curious to hear if it actually FEELS different or if Rilas is correct and I just have to get used to it.

[anon5123]

Yeah, 7.0 BRM feels really weird to me, after being so used to having tons of self-heals and being able to self-shield equal to 60-90% of my health every 30 seconds.

I ran a mythic dungeon though and didn't take as much damage as I was expecting, so I guess it's fine.

I will admit I don't really like the whole ironskin brew system, it feels a bit tedious.

[Rilas13]

Timewalking is in my opinion a bad place to learn any of the new specs. Just based on the scaling system they have, it feels different than a normal dungeon at a reasonable difficulty. Especially as a healer in my experience.

I am in the beta, and I have spent more time on BrM then anything else. I have not tried Mythic dungeons. But I can say there were a few times where even with only a handful of traits on the weapon, I was very sturdy. I tanked the last 2 bosses in the Violet Hold without a healer, which honestly I didn't think any tank was suppose to be able to do. Granted this was before tuning changes, but the mechanics are still solid.

Don't take my word for it, the proving grounds are still a good place to practice these things. I can't say that anyone who enjoyed the WoD BrM will like it but definitely give it a chance in Legion before writing it off.

*P.S. @anon5123, I admit I am biased. While BrM was the only tank I used in WoD, I didn't like how reliant we were on Guard. I have a natural hatred of bubbles in this game after having to spend more time then I care to admit on a Disc priest when my heart was in Holy(which I maintain healed just fine and has for a long time now). So I was happy to see absorbs being removed in general. Also off topic, I love the new Disc Priest. So of course they finally make it good in the xpac that I am now maining a tank >_<

So the stagger system being something we actively manage with brews is enjoyable for me. OT again, probably why I like Disc as it is now a buff management spec(New Atonement system for those unfamiliar).

[nocendi]

To answer your original question though, I think BrM may be one of the most powerful tanks in Legion in its current state.

Probably Top 5. I would say, for sure, Top 6.

I'd be lying if I said I loved how Brewmasters play in the beta. It's not horrible, or even unsuitable for raiding, but it doesn't really flow the way I want it to.

[Volkahn]

We're all tuned for the Artifact Weapon in Legion which we currently do not have. A lot of the things the AW gives the BrM will make it more enjoyable when Legion drops and you start leveling your weapon up and get that targeted burning keg (old school dizzying haze with a damage component) I have also mained a BrM since release but I am considering Prot Warrior for Legion.

[irregardless]

My experience has been terrible. Doing mythic dungeons or heroic HFC on my monk now I feel incredibly weak. In mythic dungeons, same exact group and healer, I switch to my bear tank and the instance is a joke. I get so so so so low on my monk and die so so so so often, where as on my bear I never ever ever feel in danger and only die if I actually screw up the boss mechanic or something.

I am very frustrated, Monk has been my main for all of WoD and I took pride in playing a very underplayed class. I still love the fighting style and a lot of the fantasy, but my druid is just stupid ridiculous for what he can do and how easy it is.

EDIT: Regarding the artifact, I feel that the BrM artifact adds a little bit to compensate for what Bear already has, and then the bear artifact just adds that much more on top of bear. I would go Prot Warrior, but our other tank is a Warrior. DH is my third option as I hate the new Prot Pally and have NO desire to play a DK.

[Deleted]

I'll like to chip in too and say that Brewmasters are beyond horrendous at pre-patch compared to its MoP and even wod versions. The only other tank I've tried so far in pre-patch is Blood DK which I feel is in a much more enjoyable state in regards to the new tank direction and provides much more interesting flow between rune and runic power usage.

Been maining my brewmaster since MoP where I felt the spec was in its best iteration to this date. Managing stagger has always been a bit fluffy, how much is damage is actually mitigated etc. and the current state does not make it easier in any way. I've even heard some positive feedback about Prot warriors where their healing output through Ignore Pain almost matches healers HPS which is absurd.

Brewmasters on the other hand are put into passive mode (healing-wise) through IB+celestial fortune and seeing our health deplete slowly while waiting for an RNG orb. The sum of the frustration I feel can be described as "helpless". Stagger management is often overseen and I feel its way too difficult to manage in regards to the "reward" given. Brewmasters atm feels like being thrown into a pit of quicksand and depending on others to bail you out. I think getting 100% purifying stagger back would address this a lot.
The Blood DK spec feels like an undying god compared to the Brewmaster. I cannot fathom how Gift of the Ox was accepted as a healing mechanic by anyone with a functioning brain.

Does Brewmasters work? Yes but it also needs healers as much as heroin addicts needs their fix. Excellent Brewmasters with good healers can do amazing work but your effort is for naught with sub-par healers.

Anyone new to tanking/healing should stay clear of Brewmasters.

[Rynzler88]

Brewmaster is just fine.

All the hand wringing here is also found in the Paladin forums because people hate change.

Guard was massively overpowered. It needed to go for the sake of the game.

Just because Blizz changed the model from tank self sufficiency to require more attention from the healing group doesn't mean that the tanks aren't fun to play.

Everyone was spoiled on abilities that allowed you to completely break the game and not challenge you to be a better player and think on your feet (which was the original intention of the monk tanking style).

They have just gotten back to the original iteration of what they were trying to accomplish with the spec.

Brewmaster's flaw is more on gearing rather than their tanking kit. They require around 22-30% haste and a decent amount of mastery after that to feel comfortable. I've tried both high mastery, high haste and a mix of both and when you stack up the mixture of both they feel great.

It all comes down to an understanding of managing your resources properly first, knowing what you can and can't do with the new kit, and executing with those variables in your head.

My monk was my main through mythic BRF and most of heroic HFC. I swapped to Protection Warrior for mythic HFC to fulfill comp needs. My gear level is about 730 with around 28% haste and a solid amount of mastery to back it up. Using the class trinket and the Warlord's Unseeing Eye, they feel great.

Taking Black Ox Brew enables you to abuse your AM charges and never be in a situation where you are out of a resource.

The challenge of the spec is managing when to purify and when to ironskin based on your level 100 talents. BUT that being said, Brewmaster has probably the most interesting lvl 100 talent choices of any of the other tanks. You have 3 very solid gameplay-modifying abilities you can choose from. I had a ton of fun just playing around with each of these and determining which is the best for me.

All in all, the only thing they lack is solid raid utility.

Blood - Mass Grip
Veng - Sigil Grip, Mobility
Prot War - AoE Stun, Mobility, Passive 3% healing to raid (based on dmg dealt)
Prot Pal - Blessings, 20% raid CD (yrd based) talent, LOH
Guardian - Stamp. Roar
Brew - AoE Stun, Mobility

Outside of that I think they are a very viable tank for raiding and mythic +. They may just not be able to do it as simply as others.

My suggestions would be to try playing around with the talents, maybe do a couple heroic level raids and maybe try to get some more gear if that's the issue. Otherwise, take a look at some guides and videos on YouTube to get a better idea of the playstyle. Brewmasters are shaping up to be pretty strong when played properly. You just have to decide if it's for you or if you'd rather go to an easier tank like Paladin or Bear.

[Deleted]

Brewmaster's flaw is more on gearing rather than their tanking kit. They require around 22-30% haste and a decent amount of mastery after that to feel comfortable. I've tried both high mastery, high haste and a mix of both and when you stack up the mixture of both they feel great.

Are you ******* kidding me? That much haste+mastery just to "feel comfortable" in which I interpret it as being able to generate sufficient brews to maintain a smooth damage intake at all times. Are you're proposing its fine for this spec to be gimped compared to all the others until we're highly geared? Granted its sill pre-patch bla bla bla but how does it scale later then?

I dislike wod raiding so I've been doing pug mythic dungeon almost exclusively and the dependency on healers here is much more evident compared to raids. My experience with mythic dungeons is that each large pack requires 1-2 IB and often a PB too because the healers often ignores stagger damage. Eventually I'll become brew starved and 1 brief DC from a healer is enough to finish me off at those time if I'm not lucky with Gotx spawn & crits. This is not the case for a DK due to its self-sufficiency tanking mechanics.

Furthermore theres also more down time as I've noticed how lower/moderate geared healers have to spend much more mana on topping me off as PB only chops off ½ and you don't want to spend brews on that unless its necessary. More down time does not bode well Brewmasters if you want to get through the future mythic dungeon on time.

Lastly - all tanks are "viable" for all content, "end of story" but I do not wish to be class-discriminated just because they designed brewmasters to be great for raids but less adequate for 5-man content. Had enough of that BS as the earlier version of the mistweaver.

[Rynzler88]

Are you ******* kidding me? That much haste+mastery just to "feel comfortable" in which I interpret it as being able to generate sufficient brews to maintain a smooth damage intake at all times. Are you're proposing its fine for this spec to be gimped compared to all the others until we're highly geared? Granted its sill pre-patch bla bla bla but how does it scale later then?

I dislike wod raiding so I've been doing pug mythic dungeon almost exclusively and the dependency on healers here is much more evident compared to raids. My experience with mythic dungeons is that each large pack requires 1-2 IB and often a PB too because the healers often ignores stagger damage. Eventually I'll become brew starved and 1 brief DC from a healer is enough to finish me off at those time if I'm not lucky with Gotx spawn & crits. This is not the case for a DK due to its self-sufficiency tanking mechanics.

Furthermore theres also more down time as I've noticed how lower/moderate geared healers have to spend much more mana on topping me off as PB only chops off ½ and you don't want to spend brews on that unless its necessary. More down time does not bode well Brewmasters if you want to get through the future mythic dungeon on time.

Lastly - all tanks are "viable" for all content, "end of story" but I do not wish to be class-discriminated just because they designed brewmasters to be great for raids but less adequate for 5-man content. Had enough of that BS as the earlier version of the mistweaver.

Keep in mind, this is all without the artifact weapon interaction. Every single tank is missing a button to press and stat changes that are directly related to what choices you make with your weapon.

Again, you're wringing your hands over their viability in 5 man content (when in actuality most people are fine with). It's the cutting edge community that is bashing them for not bringing enough tools to support their raid group in terms utility.

Again, Brewmasters, just like in HFC are going to be gear dependent. There's plenty of time for them to do some more tuning on them, etc. It's a long time before the first raid and what not.

On your comment about them being healer dependent....um all tanks are now. I can get on my mythic warrior and if my healer is bad i'l take more dmg. That's just how it is now.

If you don't want to be healer dependent then play a DK. I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Deleted]

From playing BrM and Blood on beta, the difference outside of a group is too great.

Pull a pack of 5 as a WW or Blood DK while leveling, finish with 100% health with plenty of cooldowns to spare.

Pull a pack of 5 as BrM, if you survive, finish with low health, every cooldown was blown, stagger ticks you to 1 health.

BrM is silly outside of a group, the artifact doesn't help much when maxed either.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind, this is all without the artifact weapon interaction. Every single tank is missing a button to press and stat changes that are directly related to what choices you make with your weapon.

Again, you're wringing your hands over their viability in 5 man content (when in actuality most people are fine with). It's the cutting edge community that is bashing them for not bringing enough tools to support their raid group in terms utility.

Again, Brewmasters, just like in HFC are going to be gear dependent. There's plenty of time for them to do some more tuning on them, etc. It's a long time before the first raid and what not.

On your comment about them being healer dependent....um all tanks are now. I can get on my mythic warrior and if my healer is bad i'l take more dmg. That's just how it is now.

If you don't want to be healer dependent then play a DK. I'm not sure what to tell you.

1. How is flaming Keg going to change anything from the current mechanic? 1.25 min CD evading 3 attacks. The minor debuff passives will help slightly though.

2. The majority of complaints I've read since the changes hasn't touched raid utility even though that has been lacking for some time. Its still lacking and with another agi tank their role seems to be diminishing even more. Do you have a link to the aforementioned complaints leading to these changes?

3. I would like to call BS on the degree of healer dependency, its not a flat dependency as you acknowledged yourself with the Blood DK. Even now most warrior at the their current state can ignore shield block and only focus on ignore pain and still mitigate a ton of damage.
PB on a non-raid basis doesn't seem comparable (sustainable speaking) to warriors or DK's mitigation. Unlike all other tanks with a direct damage reduction (until BRM traits), we rely on pseudo-RNG dodge and stagger, which doesn't actual mitigate anything outside PB. On that note Twiki reflects that when looking at solo activity:

From playing BrM and Blood on beta, the difference outside of a group is too great.

Pull a pack of 5 as a WW or Blood DK while level, finish with 100% health with plenty of cooldowns to spare.

Pull a pack of 5 as BrM, if you survive, finish with low health, every cooldown was blown, stagger ticks you to 1 health.

BrM is silly outside of a group, the artifact doesn't help much when maxed either.

PB at 100% might be too OP for some but I'd have an easier time if it was baseline 70% as 50% feels insufficient. Either that or a change to how PB and IB are interlocked.

[Rynzler88]

1. How is flaming Keg going to change anything from the current mechanic? 1.25 min CD evading 3 attacks. The minor debuff passives will help slightly though.

2. The majority of complaints I've read since the changes hasn't touched raid utility even though that has been lacking for some time. Its still lacking and with another agi tank their role seems to be diminishing even more. Do you have a link to the aforementioned complaints leading to these changes?

3. I would like to call BS on the degree of healer dependency, its not a flat dependency as you acknowledged yourself with the Blood DK. Even now most warrior at the their current state can ignore shield block and only focus on ignore pain and still mitigate a ton of damage.
PB on a non-raid basis doesn't seem comparable (sustainable speaking) to warriors or DK's mitigation. Unlike all other tanks with a direct damage reduction (until BRM traits), we rely on pseudo-RNG dodge and stagger, which doesn't actual mitigate anything outside PB. On that note Twiki reflects that when looking at solo activity:



PB at 100% might be too OP for some but I'd have an easier time if it was baseline 70% as 50% feels insufficient. Either that or a change to how PB and IB are interlocked.

1.) First of all it's called "Exploding Keg". Secondly, being able to just completely dodge the next 1-2 melee swings from any number of mobs is actually pretty good. You're nit picking if you want to say it does nothing when in fact complete avoidance all together is 100% mitigated damage in any shape or form (in terms of AAs of course). And to expand more on the artifact outside of just the first ability you get, there is a ton of tuning done around what they will be like at lvl 110 with more gear, etc. They may "feel" like crap to people who don't have a lot of gear now but with the extra golden traits and little min / maxing that can be done in the trees, they will level out.

2.) Yes their raid utility is lacking compared to other tanks in terms of being able to use abilities that interact with other raid members or help to cut down on specific types of mechanic issues during an encounter (ie Mass grip dealing with adds, etc). However, they are top 3 in raid mobility which can make a big difference on some fights if the boss has to be moved frequently. I would call that good utility as getting into position quicker is always a positive. (Plus they are the only tank who can teleport from A to B instantly if necessary). They may be the worst in terms of interacting with allies in a raid but depending on how cutting edge you are will determine if that is a big deal or not to you. For 5 mans their quick mobility, snap aoe capability and mass stun are definitely positives.

3.) Healer dependency is pretty important though. A skilled healer can save your life just the same as a skilled tank can keep himself up longer. BUT with the current model, only a couple tanks have the niche to be able to snap themselves back up to full in an emergency situation. Again this isn't WoD Brewmaster where expel harm is part of your normal rotation. It's a supplementary ability designed to help cushion the stagger and dmg intake and to level things off when it does get a little hairy -- pretty much like most of the other tanks (Druid Frenzied HoT, Paladin LOTP, Warrior with the occaional victory rush proc). On the purifying brew argument, I'm honestly fine with it being at 50%. It opens up more avenues of skill capping. Taking High Tolerance promotes a playstyle of "living on the edge" with high stagger so you can trade it off with higher haste uptimes, etc.

All I can say is that I've not had any problems with playing them in their current iteration. It took a day or two to get used to the style of play from WOD but it wasn't impossible to stay alive when I planned my resource spending correctly.

Maybe you should have confidence in Blizzard's ability to tune classes. Or I guess you can continue to complain about the current state of the game in a "pre-patch" situation on a forum that Blizzard doesn't read. Maybe take your feedback and opinions to their forums and see if they listen?

Of course you can always maybe stop complaining so much and maybe try and make the kit work for you instead of it just playing itself and expecting better results. Play around with things some more, have a little faith, or choose another class and get on with your life.

[Xiaojin]

stagger, which doesn't actual mitigate anything outside PB.

I absolutely see no problem at all with Stagger itself being no mitigation at all. It's not supposed to be actual mitigation on its own. The combination of PB + Stagger is supposed to provide a unique mitigation mechanic. And with both Stagger and Brews being baseline abilities, I see absolutely no problem with actual mitigation arising from a meaningful combination of effects instead of being an effect coming from a single ability/passive.

As for PB itself, having it purify "only" 50% definitely feels weird outside of raids. But I don't think it really needs to purify more (50% is already a lot in a raid) but it may need a small baseline that is not dependend on your current stagger amount but your max. HP, similar to how Frenzied Regeneration or Death Strike work. "Purifies 50% of your current stagger but at least purifies stagger equal to 10% of your max. HP" or "Purifies stagger equal to 5% or your max. HP plus 45% of your current stagger".

[N1gh7h4wk]

I played BrM through WoD, and switching to the new playstyle on live wasn't that bad. Managed to do some Mythic dungeons with a really bad geared healer.
In Legion content, I healed a lot. From my experience I can state that i can leave the tank alone in most of the lower mythics, as far as he is no nub. Or a BrM. I mean, Warriors need a heal sometimes, pala can be bad,too if they don't play well. But BrM really is played by few people only and since he does not have reliable healing, only a part time mitigation ability, that can at best reduce his damage taken by 50% or 75% if he really blows out all resources he got, a BrM requires healing on him. I think it is really awkward to play without a controllable healing source. You stand around, waiting desperately on the next sphere to spawn.

On the other hand, BrM might be the most challenging tank, since you really have to watch your charges and plan ahead how to spend them in the right way, to reduce damage taken to a minimum. So if you are bored from whatever DH or firemage you play, try to survive as a BrM.

[Inuyaki]

We're all tuned for the Artifact Weapon in Legion which we currently do not have. A lot of the things the AW gives the BrM will make it more enjoyable when Legion drops and you start leveling your weapon up and get that targeted burning keg (old school dizzying haze with a damage component) I have also mained a BrM since release but I am considering Prot Warrior for Legion.

More enjoyable? Because of one ability on a pretty long cd?
Our artifact traits are mostly completely boring. Just compare that tree to other tank traits...

That and BrM being pretty weak, will make me go Warri, too. After 4 years of BrM


PS someone asked how strong BrM is...
If we are talking higher end raids, I would say Druid/Warr > DK > Pala > Monk > DH

For lower raids everything is fine. For mythic+ DH and Monk are better, I have not so much experience there.

[Volkahn]

No I was not referring to 1 ability. I mean the Artifact Weapon as a whole with all of it's various added attractions.

[Inuyaki]

No I was not referring to 1 ability. I mean the Artifact Weapon as a whole with all of it's various added attractions.

So what are your so called added "attractions"?
The 3% more hp? The more dmg or more heal vor various things? More stagger? Did you even see one other artifact weapon? Ours is completely boring and doesn't really add anything to the spec