Legion: Elemental Specific

[miffy23]

But it has. Instead of CL > EQ > CL > EQ you now do 2-3 CLs each with a 2,5s cast just to drop a shadow of the former EQ. How this is not different in your head? Ramp-up and damage changed, not even talking about the other talents our AoE was spread over.

It's still CL to EQ, the same basic mechanic. For fights with AoE burst demand we do have Liquid Magma, which I found quite good for Imp-type situations. We basically have a placeable Bladestorm now. It's actually made Liquid Magma a useful talent in my opinion.

Path of Flame and Liquid Magma do not change the basic AoE rotation, PoF just saves a few GCDs and Liquid is a cd.

As for the "shadow" of former EQ, you are once more talking numbers, not mechanics.

I have not experienced any major discrepancy in dishing out our AoE to before. On fights with multiple targets you have multiple shocks rolling, MS generation is vastly increased, and I barely have to throw more than 1 CL out for an EQ. With procs I can even stack multiple EQs quite rapidly. Maybe you're doing it wrong?

[Deleted]

Comming back after being away a few months i'll be having a proper check up on enhance tonight but in the meantime i was wondering if anyone used the totem timers addon? I avoid using auras but the cooldown tracking was really useful would be cool if it was updated for legion.

[Nebria]

Comming back after being away a few months i'll be having a proper check up on enhance tonight but in the meantime i was wondering if anyone used the totem timers addon? I avoid using auras but the cooldown tracking was really useful would be cool if it was updated for legion.

on the curse page of totemtimers I read there will be an updated version for 7.0

[Deleted]

It's still CL to EQ, the same basic mechanic. For fights with AoE burst demand we do have Liquid Magma, which I found quite good for Imp-type situations. We basically have a placeable Bladestorm now. It's actually made Liquid Magma a useful talent in my opinion.

And your opinion is by pretty much all measures wrong. You want to take path of flame that serves no real purposes in most situations and pretty much everyone agrees is subpar compared to the alternatives being the worst choice. You then atop of that want to pick Liquid Magma, ignoring that Ascendance lies on the same tier Liquid Magma is once again, by a slight margin the WORST of the three picks and you're saying you without fail managed to zero in on it. Which is as impressive as it is telling.

And no, CL > EQ is NOT the same mechanic in ANY KIND OF WAY. CL used to make EQ INSTANT because it was so goddamn awfull that without it nobody was using it. They undid that, for no good reason. Forcing people to build up Maelstrome so they can even use it, then forcing them to cast it and finally tying it to a goddamn totem for absolutely no reason. It's very much a different mechanic and an absolutely atrocious and clunky one.

As for the "shadow" of former EQ, you are once more talking numbers, not mechanics.

Most people here are very much talking mechanics, your refusal to acknowledge the horrendous changes made do not mean they didn't happen.

Maybe you're doing it wrong?

By picking without fail the two worst/most niche targets, ignoring vast changes to mechanics and pretending they're not there and going against everything and everyone in doing so. Yes, everyone else is doing it wrong, as usual!

[miffy23]

And your opinion is by pretty much all measures wrong. You want to take path of flame that serves no real purposes in most situations and pretty much everyone agrees is subpar compared to the alternatives being the worst choice. You then atop of that want to pick Liquid Magma, ignoring that Ascendance lies on the same tier Liquid Magma is once again, by a slight margin the WORST of the three picks and you're saying you without fail managed to zero in on it. Which is as impressive as it is telling.

And no, CL > EQ is NOT the same mechanic in ANY KIND OF WAY. CL used to make EQ INSTANT because it was so goddamn awfull that without it nobody was using it. They undid that, for no good reason. Forcing people to build up Maelstrome so they can even use it, then forcing them to cast it and finally tying it to a goddamn totem for absolutely no reason. It's very much a different mechanic and an absolutely atrocious and clunky one.

Most people here are very much talking mechanics, your refusal to acknowledge the horrendous changes made do not mean they didn't happen.

By picking without fail the two worst/most niche targets, ignoring vast changes to mechanics and pretending they're not there and going against everything and everyone in doing so. Yes, everyone else is doing it wrong, as usual!

Lol, where did I say I picked PoF and LM? I simply explained they don't change the AoE rotation in any meaningful way, as UcanDo was mentioning how "our AoE is spread across talents".

Tying it to a totem doesn't change the fact that it works very much the same way in PvE. If you're talking about PvP, that's a different matter.

That it has a cast time also does not affect PvE in any way, we are once again simply talking numbers here. Sure, it affects us a little with movement. I won't deny our AoE has gone down compared to what it was. But it certainly has not changed drastically in terms of mechanics, and we have gained flexibility in return.

But sure, go ahead and build a fictional construct of what I stated again so you can rail away =)

People can bitch all they like, if the numbers pan out on live Ele will have a place in progress.

[coprax]

Bad, some talents are clear traps(storm elemental), some talents become obsolete with pvp talents, others are just serve specific niches(icefury)

Why do you think Icefury is a niche talent?
I use it right now, pve and pvp and I like it. Because it gives you 4 gcds where you can move freely, reposition yourself, run away, kite....every 30sec.
And it gives you burst when needed, you can cast Icefury on the boss and spend the frost shocks with high damage on adds etc.
How long does it take your elemental to switch targets? Longer...

[Lightning-]

I've played elemental now since the patch on BG's and it really has some issues, but I think most of them are known.

What really bothered me was the Maelstrom needed for Flame Shock. When I start to Flame Shock everything I just don't get to 90+ to cast Earth Shock's. It feels extremly counterproductive to spend resources for it. I really wasn't able to Earth Shock unless I stopped dotting people and focused on CL or LB.

I still think it's way better than having a 8 second cooldown.

[coprax]

I've played elemental now since the patch on BG's and it really has some issues, but I think most of them are known.

What really bothered me was the Maelstrom needed for Flame Shock. When I start to Flame Shock everything I just don't get to 90+ to cast Earth Shock's. It feels extremly counterproductive to spend resources for it. I really wasn't able to Earth Shock unless I stopped dotting people and focused on CL or LB.

I still think it's way better than having a 8 second cooldown.

I'm not even sure when it becomes more dps to omit flame shock altogether and just use CL and EQ with your maelstrom.

Cl itself is basically better as soon as there is a second target, 2x the damage and same maelstrom generation. I read that EQ becomes the better spender at 3+ targets.
But when does flame shocking and even casting instant lvbs become less dps than just chain spamming with EQ?

[freddy090909]

Tying it to a totem doesn't change the fact that it works very much the same way in PvE. If you're talking about PvP, that's a different matter.

That it has a cast time also does not affect PvE in any way, we are once again simply talking numbers here. Sure, it affects us a little with movement. I won't deny our AoE has gone down compared to what it was. But it certainly has not changed drastically in terms of mechanics, and we have gained flexibility in return.

I agree that putting it on a totem is just cherry picking - there's absolutely no difference between a totem and a regular cast in a PvE setting (unless, perhaps, you're using EQ to pull while questing).

That said, I do disagree with you that the difference is primarily just a numbers one instead of a mechanical one. Empowered chain lightning was arguably the strongest part of the elemental toolkit during WoD, and removing it is a huge blow to both our AoE capabilities and to our playstyle (previously, having 3 targets for even a second would be enough to warrant use of an EQ). Its removal greatly changes the situations we can use EQ in, and forces Blizzard to balance it directly against Earth Shock - they are both maelstrom spenders, and without the 3-target breakpoint, Blizzard has to ensure EQ is weak enough to never beat ES until their desired number of targets+time. Without the strength of WoD EQ, it becomes just another ability to split our AoE damage into, instead of being the core of our AoE rotation.

[miffy23]

I agree that putting it on a totem is just cherry picking - there's absolutely no difference between a totem and a regular cast in a PvE setting (unless, perhaps, you're using EQ to pull while questing).

That said, I do disagree with you that the difference is primarily just a numbers one instead of a mechanical one. Empowered chain lightning was arguably the strongest part of the elemental toolkit during WoD, and removing it is a huge blow to both our AoE capabilities and to our playstyle (previously, having 3 targets for even a second would be enough to warrant use of an EQ). Its removal greatly changes the situations we can use EQ in, and forces Blizzard to balance it directly against Earth Shock - they are both maelstrom spenders, and without the 3-target breakpoint, Blizzard has to ensure EQ is weak enough to never beat ES until their desired number of targets+time. Without the strength of WoD EQ, it becomes just another ability to split our AoE damage into, instead of being the core of our AoE rotation.

Which I like though. Dropping EQ on 2-3 targets always felt off to me. Having a cast time and only being worth it for more targets gives it more of a point, and re-emphasizes ES and LB for fewer targets - which I far prefer.

Yes, our AoE is weaker. But as long as it doesn't end up being dogshit numbers on live in a month, I'm fairly happy with how it works.

[Deleted]

I'm not even sure when it becomes more dps to omit flame shock altogether and just use CL and EQ with your maelstrom.

Cl itself is basically better as soon as there is a second target, 2x the damage and same maelstrom generation. I read that EQ becomes the better spender at 3+ targets.
But when does flame shocking and even casting instant lvbs become less dps than just chain spamming with EQ?

Cleave to Area of Effect Rotation

2-3 Targets: Continue using the Single Target rotation with the following changes

Switch Chain Lightning for Lightning Bolt if Chain Lightning will hit 2 or more targets
Keep Flame Shock up on up to 3 targets (spend 20 maelstrom to do so)

4+ Targets
Cast Chain Lightning
Spend Maelstrom on Earthquake Totem

http://www.wowhead.com/guides/classe...ental/rotation

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I agree that putting it on a totem is just cherry picking - there's absolutely no difference between a totem and a regular cast in a PvE setting (unless, perhaps, you're using EQ to pull while questing).

There's a thread in this forum explaining current problems with pathing while placing EQ and other totems.

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I still think it's way better than having a 8 second cooldown.

That is pretty relative. Remember that you had EotE anyways in most situations, giving you 2 charges on EQ + you could place EQ directly when the CD finished. Now its no longer possible and the power of the current EQ not comparable to pre-7.0.

[Sodia]

Which I like though. Dropping EQ on 2-3 targets always felt off to me. Having a cast time and only being worth it for more targets gives it more of a point, and re-emphasizes ES and LB for fewer targets - which I far prefer.

Yes, our AoE is weaker. But as long as it doesn't end up being dogshit numbers on live in a month, I'm fairly happy with how it works.

Are you a blizzard dev or something??

[Vorpalspork]

EQ has always been a problematic spell. I can see the possible reasons in why it exists - probably to avoid having elemental AoE just be CL spam (which I actually liked in MoP - overloaded lightning everywhere was awesome, even if a bit simple rotation-wise). No one would use it, so they created this buffed by CL and become instant cast mechanic, which wasn't awful, I suppose.

Now, however, they've put it into this builder/spender model that they seem to love; boomkins and destro locks are similar in that you have to build resource before you can really AoE. I absolutely detest this model as it makes us far less viable for 5-man content, mythic in particular. I can play just about any melee class and clean up on AoE pulls, while also having good ST damage. My ele shaman, however, simply cannot compete, on AoE, or ST, really. And since AoE and ST are tied together at the hip due to ES and EQ both requiring maelstrom, not to mention flame shock, that all our abilities are competing against each other. It just doesn't work well.

[Nebria]

That said, I do disagree with you that the difference is primarily just a numbers one instead of a mechanical one. Empowered chain lightning was arguably the strongest part of the elemental toolkit during WoD, and removing it is a huge blow to both our AoE capabilities and to our playstyle (previously, having 3 targets for even a second would be enough to warrant use of an EQ). Its removal greatly changes the situations we can use EQ in, and forces Blizzard to balance it directly against Earth Shock - they are both maelstrom spenders, and without the 3-target breakpoint, Blizzard has to ensure EQ is weak enough to never beat ES until their desired number of targets+time. Without the strength of WoD EQ, it becomes just another ability to split our AoE damage into, instead of being the core of our AoE rotation.

Well if EQ is not the biggest damage source against 3 targets like it was pre legion, they also have to keep our other damage sources in a good spot.
I prefer this if you ask me because in the past even if EQ was strong, it had its own issues thanks to a CD and tanks moving around.
While they still can move around with enough maelstrom generation you can place more often EQs and if not all damage is based on EQ you are not so dependent on it anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

EQ has always been a problematic spell. I can see the possible reasons in why it exists - probably to avoid having elemental AoE just be CL spam (which I actually liked in MoP - overloaded lightning everywhere was awesome, even if a bit simple rotation-wise). No one would use it, so they created this buffed by CL and become instant cast mechanic, which wasn't awful, I suppose.

Now, however, they've put it into this builder/spender model that they seem to love; boomkins and destro locks are similar in that you have to build resource before you can really AoE. I absolutely detest this model as it makes us far less viable for 5-man content, mythic in particular. I can play just about any melee class and clean up on AoE pulls, while also having good ST damage. My ele shaman, however, simply cannot compete, on AoE, or ST, really. And since AoE and ST are tied together at the hip due to ES and EQ both requiring maelstrom, not to mention flame shock, that all our abilities are competing against each other. It just doesn't work well.

I never understood why EQ wasn't that welcomed. It was a real AOE spell we got. Before you always had a limit of 5 targets. EQ is so much better with 10 or 20 targets.
It has its problem for sure but this is one thing I really like about it.

Well if melees are in general stronger than ranges they either have to nerf melees or buff ranges.
Not sure if lvl 110 and more artifact traits will at least help us generate mealstrom much faster in AOE situations.

The only thing that works against each other is if you want to use ES during AOE which you should not do anyway.
I guess it is still in our memory thanks to the last year doing so, thats the issue.
FS I can agree. Sometimes I also forget that it eats up to 20 Maelstrom and you fall below 50 for EQ... but I hope this is just a learning issue.

[freddy090909]

Well if EQ is not the biggest damage source against 3 targets like it was pre legion, they also have to keep our other damage sources in a good spot.
I prefer this if you ask me because in the past even if EQ was strong, it had its own issues thanks to a CD and tanks moving around.
While they still can move around with enough maelstrom generation you can place more often EQs and if not all damage is based on EQ you are not so dependent on it anyway.

EQ still effectively has a cooldown because it costs a very limited resource. Nothing will change regarding tanks moving mobs out of your EQ.

The problem with EQ being weak is that it is a sustained damage ability that is competing with another very powerful maelstrom spender (earth shock). Because it is not strong AND it is not burst AoE, it greatly hampers the usefulness of the ability (see how rarely EQ was used in every expansion other than WoD). I really liked the empowered chain lightning model in WoD, but without the perk, I wish that EQ would just go away or that Blizzard would at least give us the option of talenting into more sustained AoE.

[miffy23]

Are you a blizzard dev or something??

What a constructive comment.

[Deleted]

Are you a blizzard dev or something??

He's a professional MMO-Champion forum hero. :^)

[Antilurker77]

EQ still effectively has a cooldown because it costs a very limited resource. Nothing will change regarding tanks moving mobs out of your EQ.

The problem with EQ being weak is that it is a sustained damage ability that is competing with another very powerful maelstrom spender (earth shock). Because it is not strong AND it is not burst AoE, it greatly hampers the usefulness of the ability (see how rarely EQ was used in every expansion other than WoD). I really liked the empowered chain lightning model in WoD, but without the perk, I wish that EQ would just go away or that Blizzard would at least give us the option of talenting into more sustained AoE.

We do have options for more sustained AoE. Totemic Mastery, Aftershock, and Lightning Rod all buff it.

Personally, I think the best way to change EQ would be to make it deal half it's damage instantly and the other half over it's duration. I feel like that would make it much more satisfying to use without buffing our sustained AoE.

[coprax]

We do have options for more sustained AoE. Totemic Mastery, Aftershock, and Lightning Rod all buff it.

Lightning Rod is an atrocious talent for aoe. Most of the time I barely even manage to get it onto a second target before if expires on the first.
Terrible design.
I only skilled it because ascendance is now even worse because SWG is not available to elemental anymore. -.-

[Kralljin]

Lightning Rod is an atrocious talent for aoe. Most of the time I barely even manage to get it onto a second target before if expires on the first.
Terrible design.

The major problem is simply the RNG, the talent swings between being really good (Doing 20%+ of your damage) and being totally horrible.