what spec to raid with at 110

[The Archmage]

That's the issue, if Fire (or any other spec) is best for single target then Arcane has no reason to exist.

That was true with the class concept that has been used so far. It is not any longer. Don't get me wrong, Arcane WILL probably end up being the strongest ST spec on Patchwerk fights (Blizzard stated that it was their overall intention anyway), but that will be compensation for its lack of passive cleave and instant casts, that of course need to be rebalanced in some other way and it will be ahead by only a small margin... the same small margin that there is gonna be on the AoE department, where Fire will most likely take that small same lead.

Basically, Arcane will be the same as Fire.

Old "spec niches" as we have come to know them over the years are dead in Legion, or at least that's their intent. And with the team actively trying to achieve equality instead of accepting that Fire is for AoE, Arcane for ST and Frost the overall good one those concepts are destined to die out and disappear eventually.

Of course one thing is having the intention of doing something and another is accomplishing it... but intention is what counts. They changed their mindset for Legion, and this will eventually impact how specs are perceived.

[Deleted]

They like versatility because it's an extremely reliable "buff/nerf" stat. It directly makes healing or dps or tanking easier without much complexity to analyse it or tune it. It's why it's used on the new inscription nerf items.

Of course, it's extremely uninteresting, and it should probably not exist on gear.

[gallamann]

That was true with the class concept that has been used so far. It is not any longer. Don't get me wrong, Arcane WILL probably end up being the strongest ST spec on Patchwerk fights (Blizzard stated that it was their overall intention anyway), but that will be compensation for its lack of passive cleave and instant casts, that of course need to be rebalanced in some other way and it will be ahead by only a small margin... the same small margin that there is gonna be on the AoE department, where Fire will most likely take that small same lead.

Basically, Arcane will be the same as Fire.

Old "spec niches" as we have come to know them over the years are dead in Legion, or at least that's their intent. And with the team actively trying to achieve equality instead of accepting that Fire is for AoE, Arcane for ST and Frost the overall good one those concepts are destined to die out and disappear eventually.

Of course one thing is having the intention of doing something and another is accomplishing it... but intention is what counts. They changed their mindset for Legion, and this will eventually impact how specs are perceived.

It is a solid concept, problem is they haven't followed through.

Also like that the artifact puts pressure on them to "get it right".

Do they actually play their own Beta, any serious developer would take exactly ONE visit to the Mage Class Order Hall to know something is seriously broken with mages (why are there 100+ fire mages and maybe one each of Arcane/Frost). It has been this way for literally months.

Players are always going to favor a spec that is head and shoulders above the other two specs.

That Blizzard can't see this on their own Beta, just leaves one very frustrated.

[Obelisk Kai]

It is a solid concept, problem is they haven't followed through.

Also like that the artifact puts pressure on them to "get it right".

Do they actually play their own Beta, any serious developer would take exactly ONE visit to the Mage Class Order Hall to know something is seriously broken with mages (why are there 100+ fire mages and maybe one each of Arcane/Frost). It has been this way for literally months.

Players are always going to favor a spec that is head and shoulders above the other two specs.

That Blizzard can't see this on their own Beta, just leaves one very frustrated.

Actually I am going to call this the Archmage's dilemma, after the Archmage.

Those of us who have been here for a long time know that once Legion hits, because of the way things are set up, the vast, vast majority of Mages will pick up felo'melorn.

We all know that when Fire pulls as far ahead as it is threatening to, the nerf hammer will fall. Probably badly. Which means we will be stuck with levelled artifacts on a spec that may not have been our choice.

The dilemma then is this. Go fire like everyone or pick up your preferred spec weapon and risk that maybe they won't be buffed as much or fire nerfed as much as you thought.

[Meleti]

My plan is to just level Felo'melorn to 19 and then go dump AP in Ebonchill until it's caught up. The AP costs seem to encourage developing an off spec anyway. That way, if Fire does get nerfed I can switch to Frost and have a reasonable weapon to use.

[juhi]

Removing Multistrike was a big mistake, they should have removed Versatility instead.

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That's the issue, if Fire (or any other spec) is best for single target then Arcane has no reason to exist.

i said. Fire is a single target dps spec. with a good cleave > on 4+ target's , but arcane cant cleave the 4 target's
arcane is good in Single and only single target (Burst DMG) spec.. as a RL u know whats that mean

[gallamann]

Actually I am going to call this the Archmage's dilemma, after the Archmage.

Those of us who have been here for a long time know that once Legion hits, because of the way things are set up, the vast, vast majority of Mages will pick up felo'melorn.

We all know that when Fire pulls as far ahead as it is threatening to, the nerf hammer will fall. Probably badly. Which means we will be stuck with levelled artifacts on a spec that may not have been our choice.

The dilemma then is this. Go fire like everyone or pick up your preferred spec weapon and risk that maybe they won't be buffed as much or fire nerfed as much as you thought.

Been playing since Vanilla, so yeah been seeing it a long time. Really is a tough decision.

[Deleted]

After the nerf I would not be surprised if Arcane is competitive on single target fights, right now on live.

[Statix]

i said. Fire is a single target dps spec. with a good cleave > on 4+ target's , but arcane cant cleave the 4 target's
arcane is good in Single and only single target (Burst DMG) spec.. as a RL u know whats that mean

From what I've seen, Arcane can actually dish out amazing AoE damage with Arcane Orb, a 4 Arcane Charge Nether Tempest, spamming Arcane Explosion and 4 Arcane Charge Arcane Barrages. Add Supernova, and I dare say Arcane has an easier time dealing AoE damage than Fire. Fire still relies on those crits.

Not sure how this holds up at BiS gear, but in dungeons, my Mage does better DPS as Arcane than Fire, albeit just AoE. Fire is far superior on single target fights.

[Deleted]

That aoe is burst though. Spamming AE depletes mana very fast.

[Sarkol]

I wouldn't give a shit about this decision, but the last 20/20 passive damage trait is really annoying. If i buff my Felo to say 8% extra damage, then switching spec for better numbers may not be worth it anyway. I'll probably enjoy all Mage specs, so it makes it worse. That being said, i guess being able to stay one spec is actually a big plus actually. Many specs in the past have been nerfed to the the point other specs were superior, where now you probably don't have to worry about that too much. It's a double sided thing. I'd like to be able to switch specs at some point without a huge penalty though.

Like, i have a small attention span with things. At some point Fire will probably get a tad stale. At this point i'd take a big damage decrease to play other specs. The level i raid at means it doesn't matter too much. Still.

[Deleted]

From what I've seen, Arcane can actually dish out amazing AoE damage with Arcane Orb, a 4 Arcane Charge Nether Tempest, spamming Arcane Explosion and 4 Arcane Charge Arcane Barrages. Add Supernova, and I dare say Arcane has an easier time dealing AoE damage than Fire. Fire still relies on those crits.

Not sure how this holds up at BiS gear, but in dungeons, my Mage does better DPS as Arcane than Fire, albeit just AoE. Fire is far superior on single target fights.

Not possible, you run dry on mana in like no time if you do that, even in BiS gear.

The conservation phase alone drains so much mana that you're almost oom by the time Evocation comes off cooldown, so apart from the initial pull, there are no more burn phases possible with it at all. It's a completely useless spec and remains so. Yes it's as dead as it can be. Ranked 36 among all specs.

[gallamann]

Ranked 36 among all specs.

Can you provide the complete list showing the spec ranks?

[The Archmage]

Not possible, you run dry on mana in like no time if you do that, even in BiS gear.

The conservation phase alone drains so much mana that you're almost oom by the time Evocation comes off cooldown, so apart from the initial pull, there are no more burn phases possible with it at all. It's a completely useless spec and remains so. Yes it's as dead as it can be. Ranked 36 among all specs.

It really is not, and you should stop providing misleading and unfounded informations.

[Deleted]

It really is not, and you should stop providing misleading and unfounded informations.

It is, no Mage worth their salt plays that spec. I'd rather invite a Disc Priest before inviting an Arcane Mage for a DPS slot if the choice came down between those 2.

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Can you provide the complete list showing the spec ranks?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1784

[Synadrasa]

It is, no Mage worth their salt plays that spec. I'd rather invite a Disc Priest before inviting an Arcane Mage for a DPS slot if the choice came down between those 2.

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1784

You really linking level 100 logs?

[Biomega]

Lvl100 logs are a terrible thing to go by, because so many mechanics won't be a thing at 110 (no artifact, legendary ring, class trinkets, current tier bonuses, etc.). They skew things quite profoundly.

Also, while this is indeed a thread about raiding, you should still be very mindful of 5-man being actually relevant content people think about.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1784

That was bad reporting. You linked only the Tyrant velhari logs. If you click on the overall logs the picture is different and each boss is different, but, to be fair it has to be said that the most important boss in the live game doesn't appear to have mages near the top in certain percentiles.

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Also you should drop the range to 1 day because you are also counting before the FP nerf there.

That should be a more accurate way to show the nerf, which was indeed big.

[The Archmage]

It is, no Mage worth their salt plays that spec. I'd rather invite a Disc Priest before inviting an Arcane Mage for a DPS slot if the choice came down between those 2.

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1784

As i said, completely misleading and unfounded informations. That link was before the bug to Flame Patch was fixed, meaning it's completely biased. Also, it refers to level 100 stuff, which is not the topic we are discussing here. There has never been a pre patch that could be considered balanced or reliable in terms of predicting spec performances since this game's creation. Probably even more so during this pre patch where classes are clearly balanced around their artifacts, which are of course missing from the picture as of today.

[Deleted]

That link was before the bug to Flame Patch was fixed, meaning it's completely biased.

Biased towards the opposite of what he's trying to say though.