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  1. #1

    Mythic+ Loot System Question - fastest gearing ever?

    Currently, Mythic dungeons on live have a weekly lockout for loot from each boss in each dungeon with the option of a bonus roll, just like each raid difficulty. Get loot a grand total of one run per dungeon per week for each boss in the dungeon.

    In Legion, what are the loot lockout rules for Mythic+ dungeons? Does each level have its own loot lockout? If every one of the 15 levels of Mythic+ has its own loot lockout, it would appear to be a gear bonanza. You could run 16 mythic levels (0-15) of all 10 dungeons every week for a chance at loot from all 160 runs, most of which drop top notch loot with the chance for legendaries, titanforged, etc. If that's the case, Mythic+ dungeons would seem to drop a hell of a lot more loot every week than raiding.

    How does the loot work from Mythic+ anyways? Is there a chance for a drop from each boss, like on live? I heard about a chest reward at the end, and a weekly chest reward with loot from your highest keystone level. What exactly are those chest rewards and what item levels? Are those rewards on top of a chance for loot per boss or instead of boss drops? Are you guaranteed to get an item in these chests or is there a chance for no item, but instead you get gold or BoS or such?

    Thanks in advance for the info.

  2. #2
    Deleted
    question is whether mythic rifts will give you tier sets

  3. #3
    Each person gets one keystone per week. This keystone levels up for each level you complete. Each keystone works in one randomly selected dungeon. For each level you complete you get a chest that will give you one item. If you complete the level faster than intended then your keystone gets one or two extra upgrades, also giving you one chest per extra upgrade. So if you are a group of five then one person uses his keystone. First week M+ is available it will be level one, you will get it in your first regular Mythic dungeon. You complete it and everyone in the group gets one item. Your keystone is now level two. Then everyone in the group can use their keystone and you can keep running until you no longer beat the levels. When you fail a level the keystone that was used will be depleted and no longer give loot. It can still be used to run the level you failed until you beat it, then the keystone will be recharged again and you can continue.

    At the start of the week you will get one item with an ilvl based on the highest level you completed the week before.

    Mythic+ dungeons do not drop anything from mobs or bosses, all the loot comes from the chest at the end which contains a random item from that dungeons loot table as well as, usually, and artifact power token.

    Mythic+ dungeons do not, as of now, have any tier sets in them. They probably won't have them but we won't know that until Nighthold gets released. There are no tier sets in the game until Nighthold.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Chisa View Post
    question is whether mythic rifts will give you tier sets
    They will not, but blizzard has said they may consider putting set piece gear in mythic+ that is not tier.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Menards View Post
    Currently, Mythic dungeons on live have a weekly lockout for loot from each boss in each dungeon with the option of a bonus roll, just like each raid difficulty. Get loot a grand total of one run per dungeon per week for each boss in the dungeon.

    In Legion, what are the loot lockout rules for Mythic+ dungeons? Does each level have its own loot lockout? If every one of the 15 levels of Mythic+ has its own loot lockout, it would appear to be a gear bonanza. You could run 16 mythic levels (0-15) of all 10 dungeons every week for a chance at loot from all 160 runs, most of which drop top notch loot with the chance for legendaries, titanforged, etc. If that's the case, Mythic+ dungeons would seem to drop a hell of a lot more loot every week than raiding.

    How does the loot work from Mythic+ anyways? Is there a chance for a drop from each boss, like on live? I heard about a chest reward at the end, and a weekly chest reward with loot from your highest keystone level. What exactly are those chest rewards and what item levels? Are those rewards on top of a chance for loot per boss or instead of boss drops? Are you guaranteed to get an item in these chests or is there a chance for no item, but instead you get gold or BoS or such?

    Thanks in advance for the info.
    and they are meant to be - they are meant to be a real alternative to raiding in endgame.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Does this effectivly mean:

    /2 Boosting-Group of 4 people is looking for someone who is willing to pay with his keystone so everyone in our group is getting more gear

    ?

  7. #7
    Deleted
    I can (sadly) confirm everything you just said. its even worse. you can not only do like 16times every dungeons- you can do them endlessly.
    You can do like maw of souls 5 and loot, and then again and again and again.
    dont know if the system isnt fully developed or if its is really going live... but it needs some more of a "loot id lockout".
    but there are some more things that really bother me.
    if you did a, lets say +5 dungeon, you have a+3 or 4 key in your weekly cache in the class order hall.
    so if you now start at that level you miss all the loot from the previous levels.
    so you basically have to search for a guy with the 1 keystone you need.
    that makes no sense at all

    well whatever- just wanted to share my thoughts since I was wondering the same for the last few days and weeks.

  8. #8
    To sum up what I think I have learned...

    1. There is no loot from individual bosses in Mythic+ - there is a chest with one GUARANTEED loot item from the loot table with the appropriate ilvl for the Mythic+ level, once you finish it. This is similar to current mythic in that you get gold from most bosses and an item drop from one or two, overall for the run.

    2. Weekly you get a loot box for the highest Mythic+ you have completed. This seems similar to the fleet shipyard bonus box in WoD, but every single week is a huge boost.

    3. There is no loot lockout whatsoever. If you can find someone with a keystone, you can run it and get loot.

    4. No tier set items drop. This is meaningless for Legion launch for several months because tier sets don't drop until the second raid tier, similar to WoD, BRF dropped tier sets, Highmaul did not.

    Since there is no loot lockout, this appears to be the fastest and best way to gear and seems imbalanced. Raids are weak compared to this system.

    A remaining question - how fast do the levels escalate? If it's one week per level, max, then we're OK, as there will be a sizeable delay before it gets ridiculous. IE 3 weeks into raid/Mythic+ opening, the max anyone can run is Mythic+3... 4 weeks, Mythic+, etc.

    Please correct these theories with facts from beta...

  9. #9
    Deleted
    levels escalate every time you beat the timer for the current level.
    e.g., you're in Mythic+3, have x minutes to run the dungeon (time penalties for deaths at the end). If you make it, your keystone will be +4, you can run Mythic+4 right afterwards, if you beat the timer again, you get keystone +5, etc.

    You can even increase your keystone by +2 by heavily beating the time (similar to Silver / Gold in CMs).

  10. #10
    This could cause certain issues. Small group content, similar to arenas, are much more prone to class balancing, and not just numbers. I've played every single spec both pre- and post patch, and the overall difference in terms of "class package" varies greatly, which is not something that can simply be adjusted by tweaking a few numbers.

    In Mythic raiding, given its sheer size, most classes can find a niche. For example, an Affliction Warlock might be strong at dealing with a single target or several long lasting targets, while Fire Mages and MM Hunters deal with more bursty requirements. In a 5-man group, that sort of role diversity simply doesn't exist: It's all about burst and AoE. Getting to 20 Curse of Agony stacks in 5-man content is, well.. agonizing.

    Of course, we all know this. What worries me is the knock-on effect. It's not simply about being "viable", which I suspect most specs will be. Based on the information in this thread, it's about beating the highest possible Mythic+ rank as quickly as possible if you want to gear up fast, which will be significantly easier with FOTM combos, similar to Arena. So far, PvE has been far more lenient than PvP, which is often why PvP and PvE players keep talking past each other (just check out the Paladin forums, specifically the stuff related to Retribution). However, if the system works as described, such issues will now carry over to PvE, as the FOTM classes will gain huge advantages in the first couple of months.

    It's not hard to imagine a scenario where a FOTM group can be 2-3 ranks ahead of a more mediocre group, even if the players are of equal skill. The "package" of each class varies more than enough for that to be the case, and if the gear is really being handed out at such a rate, that's a real problem. "Bring the player" just went down the drain, especially since we'll essentially be "married" to our main spec for quite some time due to Artifacts.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
    This could cause certain issues. Small group content, similar to arenas, are much more prone to class balancing, and not just numbers. I've played every single spec both pre- and post patch, and the overall difference in terms of "class package" varies greatly, which is not something that can simply be adjusted by tweaking a few numbers.

    In Mythic raiding, given its sheer size, most classes can find a niche. For example, an Affliction Warlock might be strong at dealing with a single target or several long lasting targets, while Fire Mages and MM Hunters deal with more bursty requirements. In a 5-man group, that sort of role diversity simply doesn't exist: It's all about burst and AoE. Getting to 20 Curse of Agony stacks in 5-man content is, well.. agonizing.

    Of course, we all know this. What worries me is the knock-on effect. It's not simply about being "viable", which I suspect most specs will be. Based on the information in this thread, it's about beating the highest possible Mythic+ rank as quickly as possible if you want to gear up fast, which will be significantly easier with FOTM combos, similar to Arena. So far, PvE has been far more lenient than PvP, which is often why PvP and PvE players keep talking past each other (just check out the Paladin forums, specifically the stuff related to Retribution). However, if the system works as described, such issues will now carry over to PvE, as the FOTM classes will gain huge advantages in the first couple of months.

    It's not hard to imagine a scenario where a FOTM group can be 2-3 ranks ahead of a more mediocre group, even if the players are of equal skill. The "package" of each class varies more than enough for that to be the case, and if the gear is really being handed out at such a rate, that's a real problem. "Bring the player" just went down the drain, especially since we'll essentially be "married" to our main spec for quite some time due to Artifacts.
    Yup. And this is one of my biggest fears regarding that system.

    Because I play that problem-child of a class, called Paladin. And just recently confirmed that I'm not gonna reroll although had the thoughts.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
    This could cause certain issues. Small group content, similar to arenas, are much more prone to class balancing, and not just numbers. I've played every single spec both pre- and post patch, and the overall difference in terms of "class package" varies greatly, which is not something that can simply be adjusted by tweaking a few numbers.

    In Mythic raiding, given its sheer size, most classes can find a niche. For example, an Affliction Warlock might be strong at dealing with a single target or several long lasting targets, while Fire Mages and MM Hunters deal with more bursty requirements. In a 5-man group, that sort of role diversity simply doesn't exist: It's all about burst and AoE. Getting to 20 Curse of Agony stacks in 5-man content is, well.. agonizing.

    Of course, we all know this. What worries me is the knock-on effect. It's not simply about being "viable", which I suspect most specs will be. Based on the information in this thread, it's about beating the highest possible Mythic+ rank as quickly as possible if you want to gear up fast, which will be significantly easier with FOTM combos, similar to Arena. So far, PvE has been far more lenient than PvP, which is often why PvP and PvE players keep talking past each other (just check out the Paladin forums, specifically the stuff related to Retribution). However, if the system works as described, such issues will now carry over to PvE, as the FOTM classes will gain huge advantages in the first couple of months.

    It's not hard to imagine a scenario where a FOTM group can be 2-3 ranks ahead of a more mediocre group, even if the players are of equal skill. The "package" of each class varies more than enough for that to be the case, and if the gear is really being handed out at such a rate, that's a real problem. "Bring the player" just went down the drain, especially since we'll essentially be "married" to our main spec for quite some time due to Artifacts.
    The point you made is clear but I think you're ignoring at least two things when you're making this assumption:
    First of all, your reasoning doesn't take into consideration the affixes you may face. For example, you cannot chain-pull or burst down a big pack of mobs if you have the affix that causes mobs to explode when they die, while other classes may be faster at burning down a single target.

    Second thing is this "it's about beating the highest possible Mythic+ rank as quickly as possible if you want to gear up fast", this may hold true only if "time" is for you limited, cause once you depleted your stone (usually due to fails or simply because you need more gear) you don't get gear anymore from that stone, so that means that even if they get there faster they won't be getting more loot than you, considering that almost every combination of classes should get to M+10 which is the cap for this first tier.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragneel View Post
    The point you made is clear but I think you're ignoring at least two things when you're making this assumption:
    First of all, your reasoning doesn't take into consideration the affixes you may face. For example, you cannot chain-pull or burst down a big pack of mobs if you have the affix that causes mobs to explode when they die, while other classes may be faster at burning down a single target.
    1. The affix you mention does not exist.
    2. There are really no affixes that penalize burst aoe

    Been running mythic+ on beta for a long time. Copied this from what my guild has posted on our forums.

    Affixes:
    Available at power level 4+:

    Sanguine - Non-boss enemies will leave a pool of blood on the ground, which grows to a ~5yd radius over 2 seconds and will heal enemies and damage players for a % of their max health.
    Bolstering - Non-boss enemies will buff nearby allies' health and damage by 20% and stacks when defeated.
    Raging - Non-boss enemies will enrage at low health, dealing double damage until killed.
    Teeming - Additional non-boss enemies are present throughout the dungeon; kill count requirement increased.


    Available at power level 7+:

    Necrotic - Enemy melee attacks apply a stacking debuff that stacks a damage over time and reduces healing received.
    Volcanic - Enemies cause eruptions of flame beneath the feet of distant players.
    Skittish - Tanks have a ~150-200% threat modifier instead of a 500% threat modifier.
    Overflowing - All overhealing done (by healer-spec players) triggers a heal absorb equal to 1.5 times the amount of overhealing.


    Available at power level 10+:

    Tyrannical: Health and damage of boss enemies increased.
    Fortified: Health and damage of non-boss enemies increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragneel View Post
    Second thing is this "it's about beating the highest possible Mythic+ rank as quickly as possible if you want to gear up fast", this may hold true only if "time" is for you limited, cause once you depleted your stone (usually due to fails or simply because you need more gear) you don't get gear anymore from that stone, so that means that even if they get there faster they won't be getting more loot than you, considering that almost every combination of classes should get to M+10 which is the cap for this first tier.
    There is no cap on mythic+, they have said this multiple times. The only "cap" that exists is the cap on the base itemlevel for loot, which is 865 from level 10. This will presumably be raised once Nighthold opens up later. And will continue to be raised in subsequent tiers.
    Frequent Poster on Fluid Druid, The best Feral community out there

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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoki View Post
    Does this effectivly mean:

    /2 Boosting-Group of 4 people is looking for someone who is willing to pay with his keystone so everyone in our group is getting more gear

    ?
    That's actually one of the things they are counting on for the more casual players. Let's say you only get a chance to run 2 or 3 times a week with one day where you can really devote some time - say 4 hours or so.

    That makes that day, especially if it's say a Monday right before reset, a very big day for you since you can broadcast that you have a fresh keystone and maybe gain a carry and if you're competent that carry could turn into friends which could turn into a guild. Which is basically the way BC worked prior to the LFG tool.

    Of course the huge fly in the ointment here is that Mythic+ is cross server, guilds are not, so leaving a home server may not work for many people.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    There is no cap on mythic+, they have said this multiple times. The only "cap" that exists is the cap on the base itemlevel for loot, which is 865 from level 10. This will presumably be raised once Nighthold opens up later. And will continue to be raised in subsequent tiers.
    Right, so basically: If a particular group of strongly balanced specs can do Mythic 10-13 and a slightly less tuned group is "only" able to do 10-11, the former group will actually be getting twice as much 865 loot (minus the guaranteed item at the end of the reset). This is only the start of the issue, considering the meta-gaming explained in the next post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    How Mythic raiders will do this:
    You and 4 friends also have 2 mythic-ready alts each. You proceed as follows:
    Ci,j (i is number of player, j is ordinal of that player's characters (1=main, 2=first alt, etc...)

    Group 1
    C1,1/C2,1/C3,2/C4,2/C5,2

    Group 2
    C1,2/C2,2/C3,1/C4,1/C5,3

    Group 3
    C1,3/C2,3/C3,3/C4,3/C5,1

    Since loot is personal, any time an alt can trade loot because he has a higher ilvl item in that slot, he trades it to a main. Continue until mains have reliably higher level than alts and thus you can no longer trade loot around.
    Ofc this would mean that you'd have to play non stop for weeks (I mean, the AP gains alone). BUt when has that stopped top raiders?
    Speaking of which, do we know that the loot is possible to trade? I know that personal loot in raiding/dungeons can be traded now, but these appear in a reward afterwards, and I haven't been able to try that out. If it is possible, combining the strongest 5-man specs with the right amount of meta-gaming will grant a tremendous amount of loot in a given reset. Significantly more than actual raids, meaning mainly set items will be targeted in raids.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
    Right, so basically: If a particular group of strongly balanced specs can do Mythic 10-13 and a slightly less tuned group is "only" able to do 10-11, the former group will actually be getting twice as much 865 loot (minus the guaranteed item at the end of the reset). This is only the start of the issue, considering the meta-gaming explained in the next post:



    Speaking of which, do we know that the loot is possible to trade? I know that personal loot in raiding/dungeons can be traded now, but these appear in a reward afterwards, and I haven't been able to try that out. If it is possible, combining the strongest 5-man specs with the right amount of meta-gaming will grant a tremendous amount of loot in a given reset. Significantly more than actual raids, meaning mainly set items will be targeted in raids.
    trading loot from mythic+ is possible yes, as long as it follows the normal rule of not being an ilvl upgrade.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    To be honest even with such an affix, the most effective thing to do would be to burst the trash to 40% then single target them down one by one from that point.

    Also mythic+ raises split raiding to a new level. Ideally you will want alts to carry mains with their keystones so a main can do dozens of +1 to +5 runs (beyond that usually the alts' lower ilvl might make things harder).

    I mean:
    How Blizz probably intended this:
    You and 4 friends run a mythic. You each get a +2 keystone. You run 5 M+2, then 5 M+3 (or 4-5 depending on speed) etc.

    How Mythic raiders will do this:
    You and 4 friends also have 2 mythic-ready alts each. You proceed as follows:
    Ci,j (i is number of player, j is ordinal of that player's characters (1=main, 2=first alt, etc...)

    Group 1
    C1,1/C2,1/C3,2/C4,2/C5,2

    Group 2
    C1,2/C2,2/C3,1/C4,1/C5,3

    Group 3
    C1,3/C2,3/C3,3/C4,3/C5,1

    Since loot is personal, any time an alt can trade loot because he has a higher ilvl item in that slot, he trades it to a main. Continue until mains have reliably higher level than alts and thus you can no longer trade loot around.
    Ofc this would mean that you'd have to play non stop for weeks (I mean, the AP gains alone). BUt when has that stopped top raiders?
    Ok but at this point I see no more value in the argument of "weaker/stronger classes", I mean, people that will grind Mythic+ dungeons that way are high-end hardcore raiders and have no problem switching main to FOTM even if their previous one was a weak class. Dunno if I made my point, if not, sorry for my english

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Yeah but I guess it was the same in WoD, if you consider that you didn't have to grind artifact but you had to split raid. Unless people have unlimited time (I reckon that HC raiders will have a lot more time to spend on grinding but dunno to what extent)they will either farm Mythic+ or split raid and, if so, is that gear funneling any different from WoD?

  19. #19
    Yes it is easily the most efficient route to gearing an entire raid at least during the first week raids are open. The Ilvl ceiling is going to be locked to 850 until the first raid week. On beta playing with other people that were around 820-830 at the time I immediately went from 797 to 840 the first day I hit 110 doing mythic+ dungeons with them. Yes we had 3 people on cloth so we were somewhat efficient with trading around unneeded loot. What does this mean? Well by the time Mythic+ opens we're all already going to be 840+. So we're going to crush low levels of mythic+ and immediately be getting better gear than at least normal Emerald Nightmare. We're going to be able to gear alts for heroic splits super fast should we choose to do so. We may or may not be getting better than heroic ilvl loot fairly quickly. Compared to previous expansions we should all be far more geared than ever going into the first week of mythic raiding if you weren't in guilds that did like 6 split runs previously.

    I think its a good change because it somewhat drags focus away from having multiple alts just to do enough splits for people who did that and instead gives you more to focus on with your main on top of needing to farm AP. I hope they just push so much content to maximize one toon that the days of running 6 split runs becomes impossible to manage with the time we have available. People will still run split runs for tier sets when the second part of the tier opens however gearing your alt(s) for that week should be trivial with Mythic+ by the time that rolls around.
    Last edited by Erolian; 2016-08-05 at 12:26 PM.

  20. #20
    but they said that mythic + will not release on launch, id expect they will always be under the current raid tier ilvl.

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