Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[Taeldorian]

It must be a great life if this is what "way to much to lose" means to you

In terms of WoW. Has nothing to do with real life, dont see why your bringing that up here. Either Im misunderstanding what your saying, or you dont know how to read and are trying to talk about my real life and compare it to WoW.

Way to much to lose in terms of time played, my guild, my characters progression, unobtainable items, etc.

[Supercool]

As for Preach and his commentary, this is another one of those occasions where he swings and misses. Like anyone else, sometimes he says things I agree with and sometimes he says things I disagree with. He's not taking into account the wider implications of what he's asking for, and thus isn't providing a reasonable debate.

He explains Blizz's reasoning very well as an attempt to curb the "rich get richer" problem, same as why healer mana management at the start of WoD was a huge problem for lower-progress guilds.

There just isn't a clear win-win solution on hand. Blizz has gone with the solution that helps the largest number of people, but the plain consequence is that high-end tanking just isn't fun or rewarding anymore. Mythic raiders got the short straw and it's unreasonable to expect them to be selfless and just suck it up for the good of a bunch of strangers.

[Snuffleupagus]

I thought Mythics were great. I did them with a group of 660-675 people when they were released and found them to be more like what Heroics should have been. They were more akin to BC and Cata heroics than anything preceding in terms of difficulty.

LoS pulling, CC, interrupts, stuns... it was challenging content. But it was hardly overtuned. One or two wipes doesn't make content overtuned, it means you or a party member made a mistake. Regroup, do it again. Have some of you played a video game? Ever?

And basing anything on random PUGs is the height of stupidity in an MMO, it's a social game. Seriously, make some friends, form a group. You will find the content is not that hard.

[SirBeef]

He says how prot paladins are a crime against his keyboard. Ive never heard someone use this to describe a bad spec. Things sound pretty grim.

Prot is fine.

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Yeah tanking is pretty absurdly unfun on beta right now. It feels like you have absolutely 0 control over your survivability and just exist to hold threat (jokes) and serve as a mana sponge for healers.

I don't know why they chose this model over the wildly successful models of MoP and WoD where tanking was a challenge, and a high skilled tank would be almost unkillable in their own hands.

I seem to have plenty of control over my SotR. Talents that reduce to CD, AD, King, bubble, plenty of control. A bit squishy but I have had no issues in Beta or live.

[Echocho]

Never ever listen to Preach. His view of a good class is something overly complicated with some gimmick you can abuse to become OP. Tanks should never require a healer and do as much DPS as a rogue, stuff like that.

[Viradiance]

Prot is fine.

I seem to have plenty of control over my SotR. Talents that reduce to CD, AD, King, bubble, plenty of control. A bit squishy but I have had no issues in Beta or live.

Would you believe both posts were written three months ago, bud? :P

It wasn't fine then. It's barely fine now, but it's something.

[Deleted]

Never ever listen to Preach. His view of a good class is something overly complicated with some gimmick you can abuse to become OP. Tanks should never require a healer and do as much DPS as a rogue, stuff like that.

cause that how he likes classes. and Tanks never did as much dps as a rogue or dont require a healer, unless its dungeons they overgear by having 795 op legendary ring and 80+ more ilvls then intended for them. But from what its now healer doesnt pay attention for little bit youre dead as tank even with cds up and veing super Reliant on healer isnt fun for the tanks.

[Pua]

There just isn't a clear win-win solution on hand. Blizz has gone with the solution that helps the largest number of people, but the plain consequence is that high-end tanking just isn't fun or rewarding anymore. Mythic raiders got the short straw and it's unreasonable to expect them to be selfless and just suck it up for the good of a bunch of strangers.

I get what you're saying, and I'm not trying to be dismissive, but yes; it is unreasonable.

The Mythic community has to accept that it's a tiny minority that shouldn't be expecting a consistent vein of form where its needs are catered to far more than the overwhelming majority of other players. There should be a reasonable churn at the top-end of any activity, players who master the game and then move on. The continuous desire of the developers (potentially until now) to keep stretching the level of challenge in order to appease and retain them simply stops the natural replacement of those who do move on.

Instead, it's cutting the cord for new players looking to pull themselves up to fill the gap; and the top-end raiding community has been eating itself throughout Warlords in order to (at times painfully) prove the point.

[SirBeef]

Would you believe both posts were written three months ago, bud? :P

It wasn't fine then. It's barely fine now, but it's something.

Would you believe that I had no issues with Prot back then either? Other than the reliance on self healing and being a bit squishy, Prot still had plenty control over defensive's an AMs. More so since they removed HP from Prot and SotR is on a charge system. Just like it was 3 months ago.

[Deleted]

Sadly, such hyperbole tells me that discussing this with you would be a complete waste of my time. Most of your assertions are demonstrably wrong (such as Mythic dungeons NOT being like heroics at the start of Cataclysm for many obvious reasons), and your agenda is abundantly clear. Equally, you're still not bothering about the design problems they introduce and that means your intention is to drag any debate down into a pointless argument about whether or not something was objectively "hard".

No, thanks.

Since the very first week, average item level demands for Mythic dungeons have exceeded the gear that drops from them.

They were a failure.

Well, I've rarely seen anyone ask for more than 835 which is just above average heroic dungen baseline ilvl on the beta. Sure you see the odd 845+ speedrun group but it's rare. See mythic dungeons in Legion aren't a major step up from heroic while the WoD ones had a gap of nearly 60 ilvls in gear drops, add valor speed runs to that and you've got yourself a scenario where people will just be in it for the quick valor runs and a minor chance at rolling the 730 WF items. The only difference is that you have to form your own group, and if that terrifies you, I have fuckall clue why you play an MMORPG to begin with.

[Sencha]

Since the very first week, average item level demands for Mythic dungeons have exceeded the gear that drops from them.

They were a failure.

Then create your own group.

[Drekmar]

kek @ Preach

[Pua]

The only difference is that you have to form your own group, and if that terrifies you, I have fuckall clue why you play an MMORPG to begin with.

Then create your own group.

Two things:

1) I'll play an MMORPG if I like. There's nothing you, nor anyone else, can do to stop me.
2) Who said I'm "terrified" of forming my own group? The hyperbole is real.

[Deleted]

Two things:

1) I'll play an MMORPG if I like. There's nothing you, nor anyone else, can do to stop me.
2) Who said I'm "terrified" of forming my own group? The hyperbole is real.

It certainly does seem like you have a problem with foming your own groups, otherwise you wouldn't be here going on like you have a spanner up your ass.

[Letdown]

cause that how he likes classes. and Tanks never did as much dps as a rogue or dont require a healer, unless its dungeons they overgear by having 795 op legendary ring and 80+ more ilvls then intended for them. But from what its now healer doesnt pay attention for little bit youre dead as tank even with cds up and veing super Reliant on healer isnt fun for the tanks.

Dude I've been able to solo trash and most bosses in Mythics since my blood DK was 680 or so, and I only have the 715 ring (and only had the 715 ring back then too, just didn't feel like it was worth my time to suffer through LFR queue times + LFR itself to get it done). Blood DK at least needed to be nerfed badly.

[DisposableHero]

cause that how he likes classes. and Tanks never did as much dps as a rogue or dont require a healer, unless its dungeons they overgear by having 795 op legendary ring and 80+ more ilvls then intended for them. But from what its now healer doesnt pay attention for little bit youre dead as tank even with cds up and veing super Reliant on healer isnt fun for the tanks.

Tanks should do ~75% of the damage that a DPS playing at a similar skill and gear level can muster, and should only require attention from healers in coordinating external cooldowns in high end content. Sustaining survival against boss damage should be tank gameplay, not healer gameplay, because you don't rapidly run out of other avenues of gameplay for healers when you do this, but you do rapidly run out of avenues for compelling gameplay for tanks if this is taken off the board.

[Cheze]

I think his premise is faulty; it doesn't 'feel like tanks have no control over their survivability,' they just can't sustain themselves via their own healing in contemporary content. As someone who has mostly healed mythic+ so far, the difference between a skilled tank and a bad/average/new/whatever tank is night and day.

I guess this status quo feels bad to him because he can personally play well and still die, but... that's the game man. You should be dependent on your group playing well.

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also people who are ~660 ilvl aren't running mythic dungeons on live because tanaan and LFR are a much easier path to upgrades; getting to ~690 is trivially easy, so that becomes the baseline for what's acceptable and anybody lower is right out (at least in the public GF.)

this won't be the case in Legion because players won't be getting showered with gear that's 10-20 ilvl above what drops in mythics.

[Raiju]

Would you believe that I had no issues with Prot back then either? Other than the reliance on self healing and being a bit squishy, Prot still had plenty control over defensive's an AMs. More so since they removed HP from Prot and SotR is on a charge system. Just like it was 3 months ago.

"prot is fine" is a nice way to gloss over the cataclysm that was the prot legion thread.

Also going to point out again for those not aware - pvp is still by far the fastest way to gear anything before organized raids. 710 gear for a few hours 'defending' in dungeons? nice. Even better is that it's actually enjoyable due to the pvp changes.

[Zenfoldor]

Hey tanks. What you want and what makes the game good are two different things. You are not meant to be dps gods, invincible, and also having the highest utility. Welcome to teamwork.

[Raiju]

Hey tanks. What you want and what makes the game good are two different things. You are not meant to be dps gods, invincible, and also having the highest utility. Welcome to teamwork.

I don't know how it's possible to be wrong so many times in such a short post but well done.