Thread: Roll the bones

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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    I believe you're missing something. Like a few synapses.
    Thx. Constructive and funny.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    i also like to do MfD much more than DFA, i prefer cannonball barrage/alacrity for aoe/ST, especially with SiW fishing.
    I'm on-board with MfD > DfA as well. Switched last week (along with cheap shot from the saber slash talent) and I'm never looking back.
    MfD helps smooth out rough areas in play
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys View Post
    Gaze upon the field in which I grow my fucks, and see that it is barren.

  3. #23
    I know that theres a mathematical reason why True Bearing is so hot, since it reduces the CD on AR, but honestly I'm way more excited when I see Broadsides turn up for the extra combo point per attack. That has much greater effect right there in the moment even if its the only buff to come up. The other night I was fighting Gorefiend and got Broadsides and Grand Melee for the increased attack speed and then used AR there. HOLY SHIT it was beautiful.

    I'd rather wait for AR to come to its natural CD if I had to choose between using it during Broadsides or True bearing.
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    Have faith in us. Americans are fighters.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asotcha View Post
    I know that theres a mathematical reason why True Bearing is so hot, since it reduces the CD on AR, but honestly I'm way more excited when I see Broadsides turn up for the extra combo point per attack. That has much greater effect right there in the moment even if its the only buff to come up. The other night I was fighting Gorefiend and got Broadsides and Grand Melee for the increased attack speed and then used AR there. HOLY SHIT it was beautiful.

    I'd rather wait for AR to come to its natural CD if I had to choose between using it during Broadsides or True bearing.
    I get major wood when I see TB + almost anything (fuck you grand melee).
    TB decreases cooldown on Marked for death as well, so you can just push finishers
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys View Post
    Gaze upon the field in which I grow my fucks, and see that it is barren.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellof View Post
    That's actually encouraging to hear, because it tells me that I can continue to play with this variation based on how it feels rather than doing something unpleasant for the sake of min-maxing.

    When I first started fishing for SIW/3+/Etc I felt like it was way too much fishing, so I started running with Alacrity and MFD to try and smooth that out. I liked it a lot and it felt more natural to me.
    Unfortunately I think that original post was a bit wrong. I deleted it while I checked my logic - I think it still would have rerolled true bearing unless it happened to also happened to roll shark.

    S3+, TB2+AR - 219,877 DPS

    This result should be correct - uses the regular S3+ logic unless AR is active or off cooldown soon, then switches over to fishing for TB2+.
    Last edited by kindath; 2016-08-03 at 08:15 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    I get major wood when I see TB + almost anything (fuck you grand melee).
    TB decreases cooldown on Marked for death as well, so you can just push finishers
    Agreed. TB + MFD feels really nice.

  7. #27
    I really hope they buff Killing Spree again, its my favorite move and its really cool with True Bearing and adds a twist to energy management. Taking Killing Spree and MFD would make true bearing a lot better to go for. Right now boring alacrity is too strong. I thought blizz wanted the passive options to be worse if anything...

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Asotcha View Post
    I know that theres a mathematical reason why True Bearing is so hot, since it reduces the CD on AR, but honestly I'm way more excited when I see Broadsides turn up for the extra combo point per attack. That has much greater effect right there in the moment even if its the only buff to come up. The other night I was fighting Gorefiend and got Broadsides and Grand Melee for the increased attack speed and then used AR there. HOLY SHIT it was beautiful.

    I'd rather wait for AR to come to its natural CD if I had to choose between using it during Broadsides or True bearing.
    The misinformation going around right now is that TB is a very strong buff. It was nerfed a month or two ago, and is now the second weakest buff of the six. It's excellent with JR/BT/broadside because those buffs speed up the rotation enough that TB becomes stronger.

    SiW is the strongest buff at the moment, in particular in combination with other buffs.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kindath View Post
    Unfortunately I think that original post was a bit wrong. I deleted it while I checked my logic - I think it still would have rerolled true bearing unless it happened to also happened to roll shark.

    S3+, TB2+AR - 218,768 DPS
    To be honest, the nature of RTB is such that there will never be a perfect decision tree that any of us can keep in our heads on the fly that will always result in more DPS, and there are some situations that will merit not re-rolling when the rule-book says we should. Some of it is going to come down to practice and intuition in addition to luck.

    For example: Priority adds pop, you happened to just get Grand Melee and Buried Treasure. The rules say you should re-roll, but it would probably be a DPS loss instead of tossing out a couple Blade Flurry'd Run-Throughs. Re-rolling does not guarantee a better buff set, and the adds may be dead before you can get the ideal set up.

    Sometimes we're just going to have to live with what we get, and for this reason Outlaw is going to be significantly hard to properly simulate and subsequently follow in practice, and statistical variance is going to mask a lot of these decisions between players.

    With all that said, I still think that the simulation and theorycrafting is a great idea and should keep going, otherwise we wouldn't have known how important Shark Infested Waters is. Cheers.

  10. #30
    Long story short: we added a 'learned value' feature to the AMR simulator. It's new and I still have to do a writeup on it.

    But we tracked the different RtB buffs to gauge the value. This is with 840 gear with balanced stats, full artifact. I have to set this up on the live site (right now I have the test on my dev server or I'd link right to the report itself).

    Ask Mr. Robot Human Minion

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Long story short: we added a 'learned value' feature to the AMR simulator. It's new and I still have to do a writeup on it.

    But we tracked the different RtB buffs to gauge the value. This is with 840 gear with balanced stats, full artifact. I have to set this up on the live site (right now I have the test on my dev server or I'd link right to the report itself).


    Hell yes!
    Thanks for all the work (to everyone involved in theory rafting)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys View Post
    Gaze upon the field in which I grow my fucks, and see that it is barren.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    The misinformation going around right now is that TB is a very strong buff. It was nerfed a month or two ago, and is now the second weakest buff of the six.
    Would you mind elaborating on that a bit? While I can see how it might be a bit over-rated, it still seems very strong, certainly better than "second weakest".

    Also, there is something about SiW that's puzzling me.

    "Fish for Shark Infested Waters or any 2+ buff combo: 218,537
    Fishing for any 2+ buff combination: 218,545"

    So this tells me that SiW is about as powerful as any other 2 buff combo. Ok, fair enough.

    "Fishing for Shark Infested Waters OR 3+ of any buffs: 221,135"

    While I get how 3 buffs is better than two, I don't understand how the value of SiW seems to slide around a bit.

    So which is it? Is SiW as strong as any 2 other buffs, or any 3 buffs? Does fishing for it (all other things being equal presumably) lead to 218k dps or 221k dps? Or am I just totally misreading this? (always a distinct possiblity).

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Blayke View Post
    Would you mind elaborating on that a bit? While I can see how it might be a bit over-rated, it still seems very strong, certainly better than "second weakest".

    Also, there is something about SiW that's puzzling me.

    "Fish for Shark Infested Waters or any 2+ buff combo: 218,537
    Fishing for any 2+ buff combination: 218,545"

    So this tells me that SiW is about as powerful as any other 2 buff combo. Ok, fair enough.

    "Fishing for Shark Infested Waters OR 3+ of any buffs: 221,135"

    While I get how 3 buffs is better than two, I don't understand how the value of SiW seems to slide around a bit.

    So which is it? Is SiW as strong as any 2 other buffs, or any 3 buffs? Does fishing for it (all other things being equal presumably) lead to 218k dps or 221k dps? Or am I just totally misreading this? (always a distinct possiblity).
    With the updated sims zooper just posted, i was a little off, TB is the weakest single buff, followed by GM.

    TB becomes stronger with the faster paced play, in other words, it works well with AR, and if you have it in combination with broadsides, BT, or JR. Outside of those combinations, the rotation slows down too much, by far.

    fishing for SiW+any 2 is the meaning there.

    And SiW's strength is extremely broad, it affects everything, so the other buffs increasing damage increase SiW's effectiveness that much more.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    Tried out some mythic dungeons tonight with my new setup for RtB's.

    Honestly some of the time i'm sitting there udring an entire trash pack RtB'ing because of bad procs doing almost less aoe then i do as Assassination.

    Then suddenly i get 6 buff procs and i reck everything.

    It seems a little bit to RnG atm

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    With the updated sims zooper just posted, i was a little off, TB is the weakest single buff, followed by GM.

    TB becomes stronger with the faster paced play, in other words, it works well with AR, and if you have it in combination with broadsides, BT, or JR. Outside of those combinations, the rotation slows down too much, by far.

    fishing for SiW+any 2 is the meaning there.

    And SiW's strength is extremely broad, it affects everything, so the other buffs increasing damage increase SiW's effectiveness that much more.
    Well, shiver me timbers and blow me down!

    Thanks for the explanation. Interestingly, Icy Veins is still going with TB as the strongest, while barely mentioning SiW. I wonder if that will be updated.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    With the updated sims zooper just posted, i was a little off, TB is the weakest single buff, followed by GM.
    The sim can't really tell you the value of TB when the cooldowns are lining up vs when they aren't, since the TB sim just takes it every time. Its obviously terrible to get a solo TB at a time where you can't get any increased finishers. And we know that with AR its value doubles, and it also increases greatly with artifact weapon ability and other RTB buffs.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by LordAmbrosia View Post
    The sim can't really tell you the value of TB when the cooldowns are lining up vs when they aren't, since the TB sim just takes it every time. Its obviously terrible to get a solo TB at a time where you can't get any increased finishers. And we know that with AR its value doubles, and it also increases greatly with artifact weapon ability and other RTB buffs.
    Artifact ability will of course increase TB's value, it also increases SiW's value. The value of TB can be enumerated easily in sims, and it's not much right now as compared to the other buffs and combinations. It's value lies directly in it's ability to reduce the CD of various abilities, so to name what i have right now, it reduces CD on BtE, MfD, cannonball barrage, and AR - with TB alone, or in combo with SiW/GM, i ESTIMATE i might peel off 60 seconds of CD time on everything. So that's an extra CbB and MfD use, not bad.

    If i have AR up with TB alone, i might peel off maybe 1:40 in cd's, so still not too bad...but it's not as good as other buffs, even if they are alone.

    AR doesn't turn outlaw into a god anymore. It's not an insane cd that lets you burst 500k dps.

    So sure, when TB is up, in combination with other buffs, it's great, when it's up alone (instead of the other buffs) it's not great, it's been simmed through atleast a few hundred iterations, including ones where you get that single TB buff with AR and lust going and ohemgee...it's not as good as SiW paired with anything else.

    The sims were also done with 840ilvl gear and full artifact. They run hundreds of permutations and he pulls out the top and/or avg data sets. Your situation where the cooldowns lining up with TB has been taken into consideration and found lacking as compared to the other buffs.

  18. #38
    So you roll the bones to get 1 buff probably and depending on what it is, you reroll ? Till you get 1 of the good ones, or 2 buffs?

  19. #39
    There's actually another issue here that hasn't bee addressed. Consider:
    "Fishing for Shark Infested Waters, no matter how many buffs you had: 220,219"
    Ok, fair enough. But what also has to be considered is how many times you can reroll before you encounter a diminishing return.

    To take an extreme example just to make my point: what if you had to reroll 10 times? That's 50 (or 60) wasted cp's, plus the loss of the other buffs. Is SiW really so strong that it's preferable to 3 other buffs (we won't even count GM) and the loss of 10 eviscerates? Probably not.

    So where i'm going with this is that there should probably be some kind of modifier in the above statement, so that it reads something like, "Fishing for Shark Infested Waters--up to X rolls-- no matter how many buffs you had: 220,219
    Last edited by Blayke; 2016-08-07 at 07:24 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Blayke View Post
    There's actually another issue here that hasn't bee addressed. Consider:
    "Fishing for Shark Infested Waters, no matter how many buffs you had: 220,219"
    Ok, fair enough. But what also has to be considered is how many times you can reroll before you encounter a diminishing return.

    To take an extreme example just to make my point: what if you had to reroll 10 times? That's 50 (or 60) wasted cp's, plus the loss of the other buffs. Is SiW really so strong that it's preferable to 3 other buffs (we won't even count GM) and the loss of 10 eviscerates? Probably not.

    So where i'm going with this is that there should probably be some kind of modifier in the above statement, so that it reads something like, "Fishing for Shark Infested Waters--up to X rolls-- no matter how many buffs you had: 220,219


    I could be very wrong here so take this with some grains of salt, but,

    In the case you explained with rerolling 10 times; The problem is you don't know how many times it will take to get SIW. I am sure you could pinpoint thru sims a number where rolling for SIW becomes a loss, but lets say that number is 7. You roll 7 times and dont get it. If you knew that ahead of time you would not waste the CP but since you don't you already boned yourself and unless you know the next 7 will also not yield any SIW buffs then you would still statistically be a fool to not keep going.

    I probably explained this poorly as I write pretty convoluted but what I am trying to say is the bad thing already happened and you can't undo it. Just because your last 10 bone rolls were shit does not in any way diminish the value of fishing for SIW on your next finisher.

    Or so I think.

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