[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Lucrece]

The change to Full Moon with Owlkin Frenzy will only exacerbate the shit state moonkin will be in legion when they no longer have the damage of a fire mage but a tiny fraction of the defensives and CC a fire mage has.

Getting locked on any of the MoonMoon spells renders you absolutely useless for 4 seconds and is why people were banking OKF procs for it, it's almost like Blizzard is so clueless to realize that a class with no ranged stuns, no snares, or ways to peel off being trained other than a 30 sec cd displacer beast is going to be unable to cast a 3 second long cast.

All the better, I guess. Hybrids could not be in a possibly shittier state in PvP after they gave pures even better self healing than what hybrids have on top of their stronger CC and defensive cooldowns. It might finally be bad enough to merit an outcry that brings them to reevaluate hybrids next xpac.

[Kharahh]

I've been feeling like I am struggling with boomkin though overall have gotten better as pre-patch playtime has progressed. Im now doing at least 80-100k dps sustained ilvl 743, peaking at 300 odd, but never seem to be breaking much higher than 100 (at best) by the end of the fight. Overall though, it feels like I have to do so much more than the other classes to actually do well. As i understand, Legion will fix this, but I am trying to do my best with the tools I have. This 'best' is not particularly good though based on the logs I have seen. Now i know kneejerk response by most will be 'postyour log' but i figure a few quick replies to playstyle may give me something to initially work with:

Pooling Empowerments - on pull, its all about building up AsP then dumping and following through with emps. but say that I know an add is coming,, I might prioritize dumping Emp. Solar over Lunar in hopes to efficiently cleave. Is this correct?

Dot management- better to let fall off and get more casts of SS / SW / SFire? or try maintain 100% uptime, where even clipping a MF/SnF to get enough AsP for Stellar at <7s refresh? Looking at meters across other boomies on Warcraft logs, i have the impression that DoTs can be let to drop as they comprise of the tailend of our dps contribution. Also, is it still worth applying dots on adds (say felbeasts in archi), or is it better to just SnFire Archi to cleave whatever adds are close and then proceed to SFire rotation cleave in hopes to Stellar Empower dots via SoC Starfall.

In general :
FoE - probably misunderstanding advanced instructions on Cyous' guide on battlenet, but the course of actions at pull are still the same as any rotation ie., just keep spamming wrath after Dot application and SFire precast + Pot, until you hit 80-100 then FoE right? followed by WoE and AC (at appropriate time to avoid AsP wastage)? Just seems so damn clunky.

BoP -the rotation to keep our DoTs up would mean Wrath / Lunar strike alternation even at the expense of empowerment (which you will use up down the line anyway). Is this correct? Or should it be a hierarchical choice of [DoT due to fall] -> use Lunar or Wrath to uphold > Empowerment nuke?

Unit Frames - I am using Pitbull with Boss frames enabled to help me better manage my dots. It still needs to be configured as it is rather busy. Any recommendations on a better mod? I do not have the time to really configure this mod than i already have.

Stellar Flare build - currently competitive over other builds due to SoC and stellar empowerment. Is this correct?

Trinkets- SoC even for ST. DSI for other. Is this right? I would have thought FelPiston would be very strong now, or the heirloom, or the trink off Kazzak.

[Catbug]

looks like (full) moon doesnt work with owlkin frenzy anymore?

Are you sure about that? I'm out of town so I can't check on my beta account, if anyone here could that would be extremely helpful.
Without owlkin effecting moonmoon, especially full moon with its huuuge casttime, we are literally screwed in pvp

[Arborus]

~snip~

1) Yes. Pool Lunar Emps if there are adds spawning soon- Iskar or Xhul might be good examples.

2) Try to maintain decent uptime. Their damage definitely isn't negligible and you want to Sunfire stuff like dogs on Arch, Imps on Manno, Imps on Xhul, etc.

3) FoE really isn't usable in most cases right now.

4) Just follow a normal rotation, you should get plenty of uptime out of both DoTs just spending empowerments and casting normally.

5) Not really. Any unitframe addon's boss frames should be fine- just filter it to your debuffs only and you're golden.

6) Depends on fight length. Incarnation is really good for shorter kills.

7) SoC always. Stone of the Elements, Chipped Soul Prism, Heirloom, DSI are all good secondaries.

[Menubrea]

Without Seed of Creation it's the only one worth taking for single target.

Perhaps I should've been clearer. It's in the top 5 list for worst talent gameplay wise (incredibly dull) in the game.

[wing5wong]

We like Full Moon as a spell that requires a lot of setup but does a lot of damage. Allowing it to be instant meant we would have had to end up nerfing it's damage. We'd rather see the setup rewarded with a big payoff.

Setup and big payoff, or class design.
Ridiculous statement from the blues when our class revolves around cycling through the moon spells

[Kyanion]

Setup and big payoff, or class design.
Ridiculous statement from the blues when our class revolves around cycling through the moon spells

Yeah I am kind of confused at this one. It isn't like it is a spell we can toss off fairly often. The stars have to align to give us an Owlkin Frenzy proc when we happen to have a Full Moon stocked and ready to go. Given the random nature of OKF and Full Moon being on a charge system AND a system that has it active 1/3rd of the time because of 2 other moon moon spells.....

[Lucrece]

The funny thing is they touched Full Moon and yet Fire mages are tossing off 6 pyros and 3 phoenix flames with combustion, and it is our burst that's a problem. You know, the class with atrocious heals and a single defensive that amounts to 20% DR.

They are so clueless.

It's gonna be mages, warlocks, and melee. Hybrid casters might as well not exist. Shit defensives, worse healing than pures now, and effectively less damage because we don't have the cc/defense to get our damage out without being shut down.

[Madus]

Nerf to pvp OKF FM was just matter of time (and valid), no reason to whine about it. Rather focus your energy on whine about outdated: Druid of the Claw, Protector of the Groove, Prickling thorns and Touch of Stars so we have actual choice.

[wing5wong]

Nerf to pvp OKF FM was just matter of time (and valid),

Nerf yes.
With this method, not really. When you do actually get FM off it still does ridiculous damage

[Owlkin]

Nerf to pvp OKF FM was just matter of time (and valid), no reason to whine about it. Rather focus your energy on whine about outdated: Druid of the Claw, Protector of the Groove, Prickling thorns and Touch of Stars so we have actual choice.

Why do you think that this nerf. Why did not report as an bug?

[wing5wong]

Why do you think that this nerf. Why did not report as an bug?

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...?page=1#post-8

[Catbug]

So was the damage nerfed or was it made to not be instant cast now?
You are never going to get off a 3 second long cast in pvp and if you get interrupted, which you will considering how melee heavy legion pvp is right now, you're locked out of all spellschools. I can't see it ever being used in this form, especially in 3v3.

[wing5wong]

It doesnt work with OKF. damage is the same.

Its largely an issue with 3s. at least in rbgs there are other things to hit so you will actually get a chance to cast

[Lucrece]

It still evades them that the reason neither moonkin, or ele shaman, or destro warlock, or shadow priest will ever work is because they're essentially turret classes with little access to instant CC or self-peeling tools.

Look at destro warlock, with Undying Resolve (40% DR and interrupt immunity), another interrupt immunity in casting circle (which got nerfed instead of drain essence for some mindboggling reason), and Dark Pact for a 1 million HP shield and a drain life that heals more than a healing touch and regrowth combined, on top of a health stone that heals pretty much 50% of their health.

Even with ALL those, which neither moonkin or ele shaman have, destro warlocks are unseen in pvp because you just get trained to the ground and constantly interrupted out of your spells if not stunned or gripped around by a DK and blown up.

Mages followed by affliction warlocks will be probably the only competitive casters in Legion. Because damage avoidance (via immunities and double blink and spell immunity on blink) and instant ranged CC has always been far superior to tanking damage.

[tkc-von]

Dumb question alert: If I cast Starfall and get the Stellar Empowerment buff do I have to re-apply Moon/Sun fire or does it automatically buff with the next tick?

[Juvencus]

Dumb question alert: If I cast Starfall and get the Stellar Empowerment buff do I have to re-apply Moon/Sun fire or does it automatically buff with the next tick?

It's dynamic

[huth]

Dumb question alert: If I cast Starfall and get the Stellar Empowerment buff do I have to re-apply Moon/Sun fire or does it automatically buff with the next tick?

It's a debuff on the target, not a buff to your spells. Those have always applied dynamically. Besides, nearly nothing snapshots now outside of some special cases like Ferals which were deliberately designed that way.

[Kharahh]

1) Yes. Pool Lunar Emps if there are adds spawning soon- Iskar or Xhul might be good examples.

2) Try to maintain decent uptime. Their damage definitely isn't negligible and you want to Sunfire stuff like dogs on Arch, Imps on Manno, Imps on Xhul, etc.

3) FoE really isn't usable in most cases right now.

4) Just follow a normal rotation, you should get plenty of uptime out of both DoTs just spending empowerments and casting normally.

5) Not really. Any unitframe addon's boss frames should be fine- just filter it to your debuffs only and you're golden.

6) Depends on fight length. Incarnation is really good for shorter kills.

7) SoC always. Stone of the Elements, Chipped Soul Prism, Heirloom, DSI are all good secondaries.

Thanks for the reply.

1) Yeh been trying that more often now.. seems to be working much better, plus I am finally getting more used to the rotation. I had the old sine systems set up in my muscle memory and habits die hard

2) I still find that if I do not get a good SnF down e.g. felbeasts spawn just under archi so they all get hit, i just do not think there is much advantage to dot them all up. They seem to die far faster than the 12 sec rule. Perhaps if I specced SStars in talents, then it would be different. Just digressing though.. SS is so good for council I must say.. finally did 80% bracket after prepatch which i have been struggling to achieve

3) Aware we arent build for optimal FoE - Ive just been using it on mass trash pack or for Lols and far out is very clunky a rotation. I hope with MMoon it will be far more fluid *que for beta testers to give me some hopes in a reply*

4) Tried BoP . I am finding it is excellent in multi target scenarios with SFlare. The uptime is quite good but I still had to apply DoTs sometimes.

5) PLayed aroudn with my Pitbull frames and managed to sort it out. Dropped a lot of the extra bloat the default frames have however Stellar Flare just will not show up on the bossframes. Hope someone sees this and provides me some help on how to fix it..

6) Have tried Incarnation on some nuke fights like Fel - coming in a lot closer to mages now but still can not supersede them like I used to. Just as a slightly related side (on burst), are people having good results from FoN use? I find they do less damage than my tier set faerie dragons sometimes. Where are they meant to otherwise sit on our charts as I cant seem to find many parses using FoN.

7) Yeh, running SoC all the time. Had one with a socket drop during my guilds mythic run - figure the +75 haste >> +4% proc rate on my MWF SoC. Would be interested to hear what others think. Had felspark drop last night too off reaver -- surely that is viable to?

[Frostyfire14]

So this question is directed towards the theorycrafters, but feel free to chime in.

What if Starfall's Astral Power cost had a range? 40-60 Astral Power to cast.

40-49 would aoe for 6-6.9 seconds
50-59 would aoe for 7-7.9 seconds and
60 would aoe for the full duration of 8 seconds.

This would allow the druid to have some more control over how much aoe they want to contribute to the fight, instead of casting a full amount for adds that will or will not stay up for the full duration, or even move. SOTF would then become even more powerful in a pure AOE situation that requires either full aoe burst or small aoe bursts from time to time.

Or is it just too complicated and I'm over thinking a solution to a problem that may or may not need to be addressed