[FIRE] Legion Beta Megathread

[Deleted]

To be fair it's not that simple because FS doesn't cause HU.

[Deleted]

It IS very simple. Just do the damn math - Pyro is 400% SP, where FS*3=540% SP + FP*3=75% SP. That should be enough to offset the lost chance of HU, right?

[Deleted]

"right?" isn't conclusive though. It's very likely of course. Just pointing out if you are going to do formulation you have to do it correctly, and because it's nearly impossible to be perfect at it holistically, most people resort to simulation which is easier to setup.

[Deleted]

If FS hits 3 targets and apply ignite to all of them, will the ignite then jump around and add to eachothers ignite?

[Deleted]

To be fair it's not that simple because FS doesn't cause HU.

Say mastery is 15%>

3 Targets Pyro- 400+(400*0.3)=520%

3 Targets FS+FP - 540+(540*0.3)+(75*8)=1302%

From 1 gcd FS does 2.5 more damage than casting a pyro.

Sure you can add the extra hotstreak gained onto the pyro(which is not guaranteed) but then you must allow another extra gcd to the FS method since you have to spend that global to gain the damage, therefore FS will still be better.

Where it becomes muddied is when you add in LB:

LB on 3 targets - 100+(80*3)+200(160*3)=920% which is more damage than one FP but you can only do this every 12s but because FP does 600% if you can drop 2 within that 12 cooldown and get full duration damage out of them it beats LB by 280% SP.

The talent is now about whether your targets will remain in the full duration of more than 2 patches, if it is yes then FP is better, if not or adds are being moved around by the tank then LB is better.

It was nerfed because before on 3 targets 1 FP was doing 1.5x the damage of 1 LB and you spent 1 less GCD to do so(not to mention it became OP as fuck if you could stack 4 patches ontop of each other).

Its that simple.

[Frost1129]

For sustained AoE you need around 10 targets for FS to be worth casting over PB without FP. You lose a large number of HS procs by using FS.

You cannot just "do the math" and have that be comparing SpellPower% values when you are making significant trade-offs in terms of what you are spending your time on (FB time increases significantly when you are using HS charges on FS), and things like HS charges generated. That's just bad math for the situation you are trying to model.

Flame Patch was out damaging LB outside of like extremely short-duration burst up to a large target number cap, and was so strong on ST that it was threatening to make the rotation never include PB. It deserved the nerf.

[Sarkol]

I have no idea how Flame Strike isn't worth it before 10 targets. How is that possibly correct, and if it is, why do the mechanics of Fire still mean that's the case?

[Frost1129]

How did you derive the 30% multiplier? I don't see the same result in logs.

Double Ignite from Hot streak. I had to think about it for a second as well. But it's still not the right way to estimate ignite damage on multiple targets.

- - - Updated - - -

I have no idea how Flame Strike isn't worth it before 10 targets. How is that possibly correct, and if it is, why do the mechanics of Fire still mean that's the case?

I'm going to assume the sim isn't terribly bugged here (it could be, but I've gone through and checked at least the obvious places and nothing seems broken).

But the main culprit from what I've seen is the loss of HS charges. Say you generate 100 HS charges in standard fight using PB. If you swap over to using FS, you lose 20% of those HS due to no longer casting HS/HU generating spells. That's a lot of damage gone. Additionally, it means you're spending your time casting weaker spells more often - instead of casting PB and getting HS/HU, you're now casting fireball. I can try to look through and continue looking for bugs or something, but these are the two obvious, immediate factors that are showing up.

Something to keep in mind is I'm talking about sustained AoE. Where PB ignites are free to cleave around and tick for far more than just Spcoeff*mastery*2 damage, which does a lot to give AoE value to those 20% of HS charges you lost casting FS. if we're talking short-term AoE (say, you want to burst down some bloods that spawned or some wisps) then FS is the clear winner over PB as ignite has no chance to tick and cleave around and you are no longer concerned about total DPS over time and the HS/FS trade off.

[Sarkol]

Right, so Flame Strike can't proc Heating up? Is that right? While Pyro obviously does. From playing it seems like that's the case. I won't pretend to understand all the math behind it, but i can see how losing a lot of Hot Streaks will lower damage a ton. Going by those dreaded coefficients again though, say 8 targets, it's 400% base vs 1440. It screams 'use Flame Strike', to me, at face value. Going to play some and see how it looks without using FS. I guess it boils down to how ignite works, with it being better to just let Pyro Ignite Spread.

[Deleted]

@Frost1129 -I did not "model" any "situation". Just did basic math. And I also think the current topic is "Is it more beneficial to cast FS with FP tallent on 3 targets over Pyro?", not that FP deserved a nerf. We all agree that it needed one.
@Curnivore - the "right" on the end of my sentence wasn't to verify if my statement. It is math. You can get your calculator and double check it. The situation here is exactly like "When there are 3 targets should I use KM proc on Obliterate for a chance to get Rime proc or use KM on Frostscythe"(sorry i play my frost dk a lot atm).
There sure are ups and downs whether i use ability X, with a chance to generate recource Y, or use ability Z, without the chance to generate resource Y.
First potentially can give me a chance to generate higher numbers, where the second can give me guaranteed outcome without a chance to generate better results. It is more personal preference and intuition than program ABC simulated X to be higher numbers, therefore you have to use X over Z. Well yeah but at the moment I have to choose between X and Z in 99% of the situations the conditions will never be the same as the conditions generated in the simulation of program ABC. Right? I am not a real fan of "simulating", because it is just that - simulation. The reality is different. Environment can differ from fight to fight. One should never trust 100% on simulations.

[Deleted]

Something to keep in mind is I'm talking about sustained AoE. Where PB ignites are free to cleave around and tick for far more than just Spcoeff*mastery*2 damage, which does a lot to give AoE value to those 20% of HS charges you lost casting FS. if we're talking short-term AoE (say, you want to burst down some bloods that spawned or some wisps) then FS is the clear winner over PB as ignite has no chance to tick and cleave around and you are no longer concerned about total DPS over time and the HS/FS trade off.

Thats what i was getting at with my napkin math, those short periods where adds live long enough for it to be worth using FP but not constant AoE for the duration of the fight. Yes there are so many more variables not taken into account such as ignite spreading and a large amount of lost HS procs, gear, artifact traits etc etc. The OP seemed to think that it was still better to use pyro in those short term situations that only happen a few times in a fight.

I'm no maths/sims wizz i'll try to be more clear next time when posting explanations

[Frost1129]

@Frost1129 -I did not "model" any "situation". Just did basic math. And I also think the current topic is "Is it more beneficial to cast FS with FP tallent on 3 targets over Pyro?", not that FP deserved a nerf. We all agree that it needed one.

I am not a real fan of "simulating", because it is just that - simulation. The reality is different. Environment can differ from fight to fight. One should never trust 100% on simulations.

What do you think math is doing? You are modeling some situation (doesn't matter what it is) mathematically. It is doing exactly the same thing in principal that a simulation is - attempting to replicate the effects of playing the game in a way that lets you quantify and understand it. Regardless, your math is bad because it doesn't model the situation appropriately.

Also your point on simulation is a joke. It's pretty clear from it you don't understand what a simulation is or what it is trying to accomplish - thinking your poor attempt at modeling the situation with math is any better is pretty ignorant.

If you want to model PB vs. FS, you have to first define the situation you want to cast those spells in, else you are just throwing numbers around with no context and no meaning. So far, everyone has used an averaged value to applying ignite (i.e. sp*mastery*2). This is essentially a time-averaged approach, and assumes that ignite has ticked in full value, every time! If this is the case, then on >1 targets ignite is not dealing (sp*mastery*2) damage, it's dealing (sp*mastery*2)+(sp*mastery*2-(ticks_before_spread of this ignite on target 2)+(sp*mastery*2-(ticks_before_spread of ignite on target 3) ). There is a really easy distribution to model this but the name is escaping me.

So you're dealing with at least an 9-10s window of time here - where you will also have fireballs, and other potential procs to take into account. Where again, you will need to take into account the change in amount of time you're casting fireball or PB or FS, and the number of HS procs you get.

Or you could talk about an extremely small time window (let's say a single global). In this situation, you assume instead say one tick of ignite for each spell, and their SP coeffs. This is the only window of time where it is reasonable to simple compare PB vs FS %. And only if your question is ignoring the rest of the fight.

Context is important here, it's not just Spcoeff vs Spcoeff -> easy conclusion.

[Sarkol]

All i'm going to say is i'm glad smarter people than me can do these calculations and sims. Basically, quick burst aoe is FlameStrike, but long term cleave is Pyro. Assuming no Flame Patch and under 10 mobs.

[HTowN]

All i'm going to say is i'm glad smarter people than me can do these calculations and sims. Basically, quick burst aoe is FlameStrike, but long term cleave is Pyro. Assuming no Flame Patch and under 10 mobs.

I think this sum it up perfectly.

[biggerthanpete]

When we no longer care about syncing up with the WoD ring, does Kindling become a competitive talent?

[Deleted]

When we no longer care about syncing up with the WoD ring, does Kindling become a competitive talent?

imo yes, i would even say that it is our go-to talent with the amount of crit we'll have, it should fairly easy result in 2-3 extra combustions, ive had several instances where i had combustion ready go again on hc dungeon bosses close to the end of a fight or had it come of cd by the end of the fight, depending on how good the group dps is.

[stevenho]

When we no longer care about syncing up with the WoD ring, does Kindling become a competitive talent?

It is probably best, but what sucks is that with ~46% crit about ~22 seconds are wasted wwaiting for Flame On to come off CD...

[Deleted]

imo yes, i would even say that it is our go-to talent with the amount of crit we'll have, it should fairly easy result in 2-3 extra combustions, ive had several instances where i had combustion ready go again on hc dungeon bosses close to the end of a fight or had it come of cd by the end of the fight, depending on how good the group dps is.

Im wondering if CS will still be better until we get enough crit to reduce combustion to a cd that makes holding onto flame on more optimal. Thinking about 1min, since holding onto flame on for 15s is far more acceptable than holding onto combustion for the same amount of time. Since currently if i use FO on cd then i want it for comb so end up waiting, but still not using FO doesn't seem right either. It's quite annoying how kindling de-syncs atm, but then with more crit it may re-sync is what i'm thinking.

EDIT: I wonder also if because of this crit could have a sort of soft cap i.e you get your crit to a certain level so that combustion comes off cooldown with kindling between 45s-55s and then stack other stats, since if you take it past there it de-syncs and you are again waiting on FO coming off cooldown to burst with Comb.

Need a math/sim opinion on this!!!

[Deleted]

~22 seconds are wasted wwaiting for Flame On to come off CD

Why do you assume you should use Flame On between Combustions?

[stevenho]

Because I'm doing mostly M+ where I don't usually get another combustion out of this talent.
With simcraft being pretty far from accurate at this point, gotta go with my gut.