The Tomb of Sargeras - Part Three: The Tomb’s Fury (spoilers)

[Gamespud]

One thing confuses me and makes me think theres more to the story of what happened to MU guldan than simply demons killed him.. So KJ needed guldan to open the portal because the tomb is warded to keep out demons..... so how did guldan get killed by demons?.. in a place that demons cant get into?

Also for all those people that keep saying MU guldan wasn't interested in opening the portal, have you ever considered they might be retconning that? I mean it's not like it wouldn't fit in fine with the lore anyways if he was told to open the portal and that's why he abandons the horde but then once there decides he should take it for himself.(like AU Guldan just did) Yeah I know we havnt seen confirmation but like I said it fits with the narrative just fine imo so I would expect them to add that in the next chronicles when they cover the second war.

[Mace]

N'Zoth.
That's why Legion will try to invade his prison and use him since Gul'dan chose the Nightwell option and failed.

the Legion for all their faults are led by Sargeras remember, and the Lords of the Legion - the demons might be all gluttonous for power and chaos, but the leadership has a very specific agenda, - they are fighting the void lords in their own terrible way, why would they use N'zoth? they'd want in particular to destroy it and then finish off Azeroth after they absorbed all her power.

[Enthralled]

One thing confuses me and makes me think theres more to the story of what happened to MU guldan than simply demons killed him.. So KJ needed guldan to open the portal because the tomb is warded to keep out demons..... so how did guldan get killed by demons?.. in a place that demons cant get into?

Also for all those people that keep saying MU guldan wasn't interested in opening the portal, have you ever considered they might be retconning that? I mean it's not like it wouldn't fit in fine with the lore anyways if he was told to open the portal and that's why he abandons the horde but then once there decides he should take it for himself.(like AU Guldan just did) Yeah I know we havnt seen confirmation but like I said it fits with the narrative just fine imo so I would expect them to add that in the next chronicles when they cover the second war.

If they were planning on retconning it, then why write it into the script to have Khadgar talk about it now? That's just inviting controversy.

That would be a huge retcon, making big chunks of two of the RTS games very confusing. It wouldn't be like changing his motivations or whatever; it would be changing what happened in the Tomb itself.

[Gamespud]

If they were planning on retconning it, then why write it into the script to have Khadgar talk about it now? That's just inviting controversy.

That would be a huge retcon, making big chunks of two of the RTS games very confusing. It wouldn't be like changing his motivations or whatever; it would be changing what happened in the Tomb itself.

Simple, that's what khadgar THINKS happened. But maybe there's more to it? After all like I said it doesn't make sense that they couldn't get a demon into the tomb but guldan gets killed by demons in the tomb.

Also its not really changing his motivations or anything it simply gives a reason to why he went to the tomb in the first place. And its not like they havnt already retconned the hell out of the first two games.. they are very different from the modern lore. But ultimately he still sought out the power for himself just like it originally happened, just he was told to go there first.

[elcapone]

Great Stuff, they added so much lore and story to the game, brings a lot of context to the raids, especially nighthold. Also yea like poster above, its what Khadgar thinks what happened, word travels fast. Pretty sure only Maiev and Illidan only knows the truth what happened because she was in the tomb and say mu guldan memories and talked to the hermit. I wonder if that hermit from WC3 shows up/.

[Gamespud]

Great Stuff, they added so much lore and story to the game, brings a lot of context to the raids, especially nighthold. Also yea like poster above, its what Khadgar thinks what happened, word travels fast. Pretty sure only Maiev only knows the truth what happened because she was in the tomb and say mu guldan memories and talked to the hermit. I wonder if that hermit from WC3 shows up/.

As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure ive seen it mentioned on these forums that he does appear in the broken isles somewhere, but I don't have beta so I'm not exactly sure where.

[Wildmoon]

It definitely happened before the event of WC3. Aegwynn, by the time of WC3, already lost so much power from getting back to Azeroth from wherever Sargeras banished her to and resurrecting Medivh that she couldn't even create (a) powerful enough ward(s) to hide herself, much less wards as powerful as the ones in the tomb. It's possible that Illidan wasn't demonic enough yet by the time of WC3, and only turned full demon after taking the Eye of Sargeras and whatever lingering power of Sargeras there.


This is not entirely correct. For once, Illidan himself pointed out in his monologue (to himself, thus, there was no reason to lie, as opposed to saying something to another) that he was infiltrating the Legion

Secondly, even during the WoTA triology, it was never stated in Demon Soul that Illidan ultimately decided to join the Legion. The book depicted how bitter he as towards Malfurion, how much he loved power (especially towards the Well) and that by the end of the book, he had "contradictory thoughts and notions" - but that was all it was. It wasn't flat out stated that he decided to betray the NE anywhere. Of course, the book ended up with Illidan claiming to Azshara's palace that he was there to join them, but that could be just a guise - how would he infiltrate them otherwise? By saying "Hey demons, I'm here to infiltrate your ranks"? All in all, while it did hint at Illidan's betrayal, it wasn't a conclusive evidence of his betrayal.

Additionally, while you claimed that he switched side from the Legion because they didn't "make him a super high rank right away", this wasn't the case. Throughout book 3 ("The Sundering"), there was no description of Illidan being unsatisfied with the Legion's treatment. One would expect if that was true, we'd have gotten paragraphs depicting how annoyed he was, judging by Illidan's character back then - just like in book 2 ("The Demon Soul"). Then, we know that he already had his plan when he was stealing the Demon Soul - seeing that he unnaturally showed no reaction and just unhesitatingly gave the disc to Varo'then and by the time they went back to the Well, the book made it clear that his interest were against those of the Legion.

In summary, both WoTA triology and the Illidan book showed that he was infiltrating the Legion. He might have loved power, he might have had "contradictory thoughts", but there was no evidence of him crossed the line and decided to betray the NE.

Err no. The books were very clear that Illidan went to the Legion for more power to prove he was better than Malfurion. He already betrayed the night elves by giving DS to the legion. He took it from Malfurion.

The main motives of Illidan were there for you to see in the books. It wasn't about Legion or Azshara. It was about himself. He didn't want recognition and power as bonus. They were his main goals. Defeating the legion would earn him those things.

[Deleted]

Err no. The books were very clear that Illidan went to the Legion for more power to prove he was better than Malfurion. He already betrayed the night elves by giving DS to the legion. He took it from Malfurion.

The books that Knaak wrote seriously and let me guess you haven't read the latest book by King have you?
If you hate Illidan so much go and make a thread about it

[death87]

As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure ive seen it mentioned on these forums that he does appear in the broken isles somewhere, but I don't have beta so I'm not exactly sure where.

he's there but doesn't have any plot.

also wouldnt it be weird if this drakthul was really MU guldan?

- - - Updated - - -

Simple, that's what khadgar THINKS happened. But maybe there's more to it? After all like I said it doesn't make sense that they couldn't get a demon into the tomb but guldan gets killed by demons in the tomb.

Also its not really changing his motivations or anything it simply gives a reason to why he went to the tomb in the first place. And its not like they havnt already retconned the hell out of the first two games.. they are very different from the modern lore. But ultimately he still sought out the power for himself just like it originally happened, just he was told to go there first.

the old lore states that it was crazed demons that were trapped in the tomb from when sargeras was defeated by Aegwynn til Guldan raised the island itself.

[Qualia]

Err no. The books were very clear that Illidan went to the Legion for more power to prove he was better than Malfurion. He already betrayed the night elves by giving DS to the legion. He took it from Malfurion.

The main motives of Illidan were there for you to see in the books. It wasn't about Legion or Azshara. It was about himself. He didn't want recognition and power as bonus. They were his main goals. Defeating the legion would earn him those things.

Those weren't mutually exclusive, though. The WoTA triology never flat out stated that he betrayed the NE and joined the Legion, implying he never intended to use the Dragon Soul to overthrow them from the start. They just mentioned that Illidan had "contradictory thoughts" - and he realized that too, but that's about it. While one can argue that it was vaguely hinted that Illidan *might* have defected to the Legion, the 3rd book showed us that he had something else planned in mind instead. The one I was replying to argued that Illidan wasn't trying to infiltrate the Legion at all and genuinely joined them (and only switched back later due to unhappiness of their treatments), which isn't true IMO.

He could be doing it for himself. He might have been in it for more power to prove he was better than Malfurion. We can agree that these two points are well depicted in the books. However, that doesn't mean his goals didn't include infiltrating the Legion. I'm not saying that his only goal (or most important one) was to infiltrate the Legion, but according to Illidan's monologue plus the WoTA triology, that has always been one of the goals. He "switched side" so that he would gain both power, a chance to prove that he is better than Malfurion, and a chance to overthrow the Legion from within - 3 birds with one stone. You can't call it a betrayal if one of his real goals had always been to defeat the Legion.

Lastly, I believe I argued about this before, without him taking the DS, the NE wouldn't have won the final battle. Malfurion only intended to steal the DS so that Deathwing wouldn't be able to use it against the other dragonflights, he had no other plan for it. Sargeras would have come sooner or later, and Archimonde himself was powerful enough to win if needed to. Illidan took it from Malfurion, but it was for the aim of overturning the portal spell to banish the Legion demons. His methods might not have worked out well (apparently, seeing Malfurion was the one perfected it), but the intention wasn't to help the Legion.

[Enthralled]

Simple, that's what khadgar THINKS happened.

Everyone knows what happened in there because Gul'dan left a written record of huge red runes on the wall as he progressed through.

[Deleted]

So... "neither of you can die this day." Interesting.

I like the new light this puts on Gul'dan. He doesn't really care for the Legion.

[Krazzorx]

Err no. The books were very clear that Illidan went to the Legion for more power to prove he was better than Malfurion. He already betrayed the night elves by giving DS to the legion. He took it from Malfurion.

The main motives of Illidan were there for you to see in the books. It wasn't about Legion or Azshara. It was about himself. He didn't want recognition and power as bonus. They were his main goals. Defeating the legion would earn him those things.

The Illidan novel overrides that though as its more recent.

[Gamespud]

Everyone knows what happened in there because Gul'dan left a written record of huge red runes on the wall as he progressed through.

Fair enough, its been a while since I last played TFT, but it still just seems like it doesn't add up and there's more we havn't learned yet. I mean sure crazed demons, but that doesn't sound very compelling now does it. Especially since KJ says its from disloyalty. Yeah he may have been lying (damn that title) but just being killed by random demons just cuz doesn't feel as interesting as the rest of the story is...

[bloodmoth13]

Anyone else feel terrified by Khadgar hunting down Gul'Dan while telling dad jokes and shit?

Really enjoyed this though, never listened to one of these things before

[Gamespud]

I take back everything I said. They tied up my questions nicely in the finale. Guldan was working for the legion (whether directly or indirectly) before but betrayed them by abandoning the horde and seeking power in the tomb. So the demons that have been locked there for centuries slew him for his disloyalty.