If Naxx40 released in today's modern raiding enviroment, how long would it last?

[Deleted]

Mechanic wise i would dare to say the best players in the world would clear naxx in a night, the problem with naxx was the gear, i would say 2 weeks max if they need to farm the gear and get ready

[Holofernes]

hmm i really dont know. Trash had a DPS requirment that an guild that killed cthun before didnt fulfill without a LOT of practice (wiping) and a shitton of consumables. The Same Trash had a raidwide ae that if cast
d like 4-5 times it would start to kill the entire raid.

I remember the community outcry at cata heroics, and i found them challenging but doable. Naxx in counter was Punishing as fuck at the beginning, and u had to farm the first 3-5 bosses for months to get further in, and the first month you would spend most of the time on trash wiping.

[Tusq]

hmm i really dont know. Trash had a DPS requirment that an guild that killed cthun before didnt fulfill without a LOT of practice (wiping) and a shitton of consumables. The Same Trash had a raidwide ae that if cast
d like 4-5 times it would start to kill the entire raid.

I remember the community outcry at cata heroics, and i found them challenging but doable. Naxx in counter was Punishing as fuck at the beginning, and u had to farm the first 3-5 bosses for months to get further in, and the first month you would spend most of the time on trash wiping.

Those fucking gargoyles

[Overdispersion]

No they wouldnt. It would take them 6 months atleast to gear up to pass patch. Kitting 40 people with frost res and normal gear would atleast take 40 weeks of farming... Only way to finish it in 2-3 weeks would be if every guild capable of killing anything in there would join with other guilds and make a best kitted team for it. for a single guild to do it you would probably need 400 active players and 10 raidgroups.

He meant going into Naxx with BWL/AQ40 gear, not leveling from scratch.

[Lochton]

Let's say that vanilla Naxx and wotlk Naxx never existed, this raid releases tomorrow and it only has one difficulty, it releases tomorrow, how long would it take for the first guild to kill KT.

Obviously it'd be a little hard to properly introduce many of the mechanics today but let's assume it's as pure of a copy as possible in terms of difficulty.

Some things are still a factor: resist gear, consumables, Patchwerk etc are scaled to require the same high amount of dps relatively to current dps.

I imagine it wouldn't take very long but I'd like to read opinions.

It would last a long time, a damn long time. Seeing how the anniversary molten core went, finding 40 people would be more challenge than the safety dance - especially people wanting to work togetherk, and wanting to be prepared.

[Nitros14]

Too many idiots in this thread.

1. Naxx wasnt mechanically hard
2. Frost Resist could only be farmed in Naxx40, this made sapph/kt inaccessible for weeks.
3. Loatheb, 4horse were the only 2 difficult fights (execution and raid comp)

If we teleported todays raiders back to Naxx40 they would still clear the place in 1-2 weeks.

? Gothik was much harder to execute than Loatheb. Loatheb was a matter of gear and turning in an onyxia head/flasking the whole raid, then getting people to hit their bandage/healthstone/shadow protection pot at the right time.

By the time guilds got to Sapphiron they'd been stuck on Four Horsemen for months so he died relatively quickly.

Kel'Thuzad was tuned much higher than everything else in the instance and was definitely objectively the hardest boss. Also was not a frost resist fight, heavy DPS requirement.

[Redasurc]

He meant going into Naxx with BWL/AQ40 gear, not leveling from scratch.

Yes. 40 people, 2 maybe 3 loot from each boss... you do the math.

[Mercane]

Yes. 40 people, 2 maybe 3 loot from each boss... you do the math.

So- are we reinstancing Naxx of old into WoW of Now, or are we sending people back in time to old Naxx?

What time frame is this taking place in? Do we have new mechanics or old mechanics? Are resists still a thing? Are there tier bonuses from other raids available?

Pretty sure if it was a revival of Naxx40 in today's WoW, it would take a week for top guilds to clear it. Things like missed taunts, single specs and resist gear are relics from the past and no longer exist.

Farming gear isn't hard, it's just time consuming- the hard part is keeping the 40 man roster together while you're farming gear.

It would last a long time, a damn long time. Seeing how the anniversary molten core went, finding 40 people would be more challenge than the safety dance - especially people wanting to work togetherk, and wanting to be prepared.

Comparing a 40-man LFR to an organized 40 man raid team is pretty silly, don't you think?

would it be ridiculously overtuned like naxx40 was with retarded comp requirements just to be able to kill a boss? if yes then probably quite a few weeks, with the same limited amount of gear aquirable?

if it was balanced with the old mechanics it wouldnt take long

Quick progression still involves lots of class stacking and 'retarded comp requirements'.

[Overdispersion]

Yes. 40 people, 2 maybe 3 loot from each boss... you do the math.

Because it took the top guilds 4 months to clear Naxx you know...

[shaunika123]

Quick progression still involves lots of class stacking and 'retarded comp requirements'.

not 8 tanks with ridiculous gear requirement tho, it's not even close to what you needed for naxx in terms of raid composition/gear requirement

and raid stacking only really is a thing in like world firsts and stuff four horsemen was literally unkillable unless you had 8 tanks

we were like world ~180 in HFC and the only "stacking" we did was have someone log their DK alt for mannoroth progression because we needed 2 of them, that's it

[Deleted]

Because it took the top guilds 4 months to clear Naxx you know...

IF 4horsemen dint require as many tanks ti be geared naxx as whole wouldve been cleared a lot faster.

[Lochton]

Comparing a 40-man LFR to an organized 40 man raid team is pretty silly, don't you think?

Not really, for it would be released as LFR content too. As well, even for current people have trouble being prepared for raids, even the 'organized' ones.

[Nitros14]

not 8 tanks with ridiculous gear requirement tho, it's not even close to what you needed for naxx in terms of raid composition/gear requirement

and raid stacking only really is a thing in like world firsts and stuff four horsemen was literally unkillable unless you had 8 tanks

we were like world ~180 in HFC and the only "stacking" we did was have someone log their DK alt for mannoroth progression because we needed 2 of them, that's it

Many guilds killed it with six tanks with four piece tier 3+spell hit trinket to minimize taunt resists. Eight tanks was a workaround for guilds without all the geared tanks, could do it undergeared, some guilds even used ferals for it.

As I recall, death and taxes said they wiped on it for 56 days because they didn't realize there was a tiny safe zone in the middle of the room when the horsemen were positioned properly, where you could drop mark stacks. Not because a top guild couldn't manage to fit eight warriors in a raid.




Six groups, all about getting Thane Kor'thazz down.

It might've been a half interesting encounter at 80 if they hadn't removed the 20 second 75% shield wall the horsemen each did at 50% and 20%. And you know, made them have less than half the HP and damage they'd need to be tuned the same as 60.

[Akylios]

It would take about a week max. Naxx is very simple in mechanics compaired to todays. Imagine putting vanilla raiders into todays raids, they would quit in a day or two.

I cleared Naxx back in classic. I then didn't play the game again until MoP.

Short story:
When I returned in MoP, raiding was about as hard as it had been in classic.

Long story:
When we returned to MoP, my guild of moms and dads in their mid 30s to mid 40s only planned on doing normal modes. Seeing as none of us had played the game for about a decade. We almost one-shot everything in normal mode. Without any prior knowledge of the encounters beyond what the in-game dungeon guide said. It was UBRS level stuff. You could make multiple mistakes and still not wipe.

We obviously went up to heroic modes, which we quickly realized was an actual raid level tier. We still killed most heroic bosses in less than a single raid night, but just like in classic, a small handful wound up being incredibly hard, taking up most of our raiding time week after week.

I didn't play WoD, but at least between classic and MOP there wasn't really any jump in difficulty. Raiding just became a lot more fun.

[Pickynerd]

I still play with old guild mates from vanilla on and off, the hardest part about raiding today is the lack of free time. Over the years with career changes, people going from single to married with one on the way and so on, WoW has taken a backseat from the days of "Get out of work drink some beers and kill shit" freedom.

This is why LFR is so popular, you can still "raid" get gear and have fun on a very limited schedule. For those who don't understand, give it another 10 years and you will.

I miss old server communities, before faction/name/server changes, really does suck raiding with a bunch of nobodies.

[Venziir]

It's interesting how people view it today vs then.

You know 80 Naxxramas was tuned at LFR level and 60 Naxxramas was tuned at mythic level, a bit different. Example: Many people felt Grobbulus was the hardest boss in Naxxramas 80. It was the only boss that wasn't heavily nerfed and changed to be much easier.

........ Uhm....

- - - Updated - - -

After reading all comments here, i think there are some who failed to understand that the hardship we had back then wasn't as much about the fight mechanism as today. Like some mentioned, back then, you don't simply look for pugs and go into the raid, there are the basic of endless grinding of gear that involve rare materials and reputations, some even involve the need of helps from your guildies. Throughout the grinding of gear and pots and repair bot (including its rare schematic and levelling engineering), there are also endless gankage if you're on pvp servers and a time consuming of picking up your body, both spirit running and resurrection pending time from multiple death. Of course, we then come to the mechanics of the fight, on top of each raid requiring almost the bis outside of the current raid (including those from previous raids), we also need to farm for certain items and pots specifically to increase the chance of success for the attempts, fire resistance gear for the first 2 tier, then nature resistance and shadow resistance for zg and aq, and then shadow and frost for naxx. Ok, only then we start talking about executing strategies, with limited networking technologies and the less common of game streaming and guides back then (well, if you're raiding, you belong to the elite 10%), even Blizzard admit that it was trial and error back then (talk about the first time attempting pre nerf C thun, the balls-breaking frustration). Oh, so you got the perfect strategies, now we talk about the perfect setup. What? you got elemental boss like Gaar? holy hell rogue poisons wouldn't work, fire mage wouldn't work, etc. What do you do? call out to the 20-60 (i have seen more than that waiting to be invited into the raid) members awaiting to be invited into raid that do frost damage, or good physical damage, etc. After that, what? you got a boss that is not immune to nature elements? oh, remove the guy and bring back the rogue that deal more dps than him when poisons work. Good, you got that part. 8-12 hours past and you finally got past 2nd or third boss as there was too much time spent on trial and error determining the fight mechanics, and your tanks' eyes are bleeding, you need to get your second and fourth rank tanks in. Oh wait, the 4th tank don't have enough gear? ask the other raiding guild if they have sufficient geared tank that isn't locked. They don't? oh screw that, your first or third rank tank need to stay on with like 6 packs of red bulls and twinkles, while ultimatum to the 4th tank to grind for gear at the mean time. The grind, the strats, the roster were just some of the hardships we've had back then, I'm not trying to be elitism but while i made a lot of friends and great memories (ts meltdown from 1% onyx wipe, first time hammer falling, knocking on aq gongs, etc) in my early college days, i think the game has come a long way to be friendlier to a larger spectrum of players. As somebody had said, good players will still strive regardless of which expansions, it's not just about how intelligent the player is, but also how much time he spent in game that allow him to be that bit familiar than others. It's hard to imagine if blizz intro naxx 40 now first time, as the game has come a long way to accommodate the other 90% of the player base. Like someone mentioned, ae heals were a luxury back then, survival skills are mostly for tanks, the viable specs are limited, the grind is real, the roster (especially as a raid leader of a world first pushing team) were a nightmare, and the game was more like a full time job than just a game, thanks to elitism from EQ. However, the community within server were tighter, people log on just to connect with each others online were real before Facebook, ninja loot is a god-forbidden thing and name change was just a dream. While the lore of the game is just retcon feeding on previous success, Blizz had definitely set a high benchmark and standard for the genre, with its story telling and players participation. Lastly, i think blizz should just learn from Square Enix model of FF11 and FF14, an MMO doesn't need to go on forever, sticking to its limited foundation of the whole game systems, such as graphic, but to bravely introduce a different version that continues from previous stories, and build on from there. Let's face it, the game has lasted more than a decades, it has its glorious days, it is time to let it fade into hall of fame of pc gaming, and bring back the innovation and authenticity of the good old Blizzard Entertainment for the next in the franchise. I grew up playing every single Blizz games, the Blizzard Entertainment i knew was a quality oriented developer, bold, creative, and authentic. Blizzard that i know now, is all but a spoilt child feeding off late dad coffer. We had one generation of Warcraft 1/2 heroes such as Durotan and Lothar, then we had the 2nd generation of heroes in Warcraft 3 in Malfurion, Vol'jin, and Thrall. We have been with the 2nd generations for almost 20 years. It is time to just introduce a totally new version of the franchise, with 3rd generation heroes, and of course, new classes idea, better graphic, or even game mechanism. I look at my new born son and thought to myself, his generations is going to be all about becoming with the game, participating in it, such as VR. What are keyboard and mouse to them in 10-20 years time? When someone said there would be at least another 10 years of exciting times for wow, i hear nothing but a last stance struggle of pride and public liaison. I just hope Blizzard can figure out something soon, with the ideas of other franchise running out, the profit of other franchise might be able to allow some leeway for developing a brand new WoW 2.0. Sorry for the wall of text, just my 2 cents.

Sweet Jesus man! Use paragraphs!

[Nitros14]

........ Uhm....

I'm not sure what the Uhm-ing about the bolded is. Do you disagree? Just looking at numbers tuning between them.

DPS wise here's an example. Let's take a very geared guild that could comfortably beat Patchwerk's enrage at 60, killing him in six minutes when the berserk is 7. 4.2 million hp, 360 seconds, 11666 raid dps.

Looking at old screenshots of my first Patchwerk kill at 80, early in Wrath people were doing around 2,500/4,000 DPS on Patchwerk, or 60k raid dps in this case.

Factoring out tanks for the moment, with 26 dps in your 40-man patchwerk raid and 16 dps in your 25-man raid your dps are doing about 10 times as much damage at 80 as 60.

Kel'Thuzad in his last phase at 80 has 5.84 million Hp. Kel'Thuzad in his last phase at 60 had 1.5 million Hp.

To be tuned the same as 60 Kel"Thuzad 80 should have 15 million Hp in his last phase, and that's not even taking into account that due to the tank being mind controlled you had to full stop dps with chains coming.

That's like doing the boss with a ~66% health reduction.

More numbers

Examples:

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=28794/rain-of-fire Faerlina's rain of fire 2,500 damage every 2 seconds on people with 20,000 hp.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Grand_Widow...ina_(original) At 60 2,000 damage every 2 seconds on people with ~4,000 hp.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=28863/void-zone#summons Lady Blaumeux's void zone 3,000 damage every second on people with 20,000 hp.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Four_Horsemen_(original) At 60 4,000 damage a second on people with ~4,000 hp.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=28786/locust-swarm Anub'Rekhan's locust swarm 1300 nature damage stack on tanks with ~35,000 hp.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Anub%27Rekhan_(original) At 60 1300 nature damage stack on tanks with ~9,000 hp.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=28479/frostbolt Kel'Thuzad's frostbolt volley, 5500 aoe on people with 20,000 hp.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Kel%27Thuzad_(original) At 60 3250 aoe on people with ~4,000 hp.

Just numbers wise, 80-ramas was tuned similarly to LFR raids today and 60-ramas was tuned similarly to mythic raids today. And, similarly, 80-ramas had numerous mechanic nerfs especially on Four Horsemen, Kel'Thuzad, Heigan, and Maexxna.

[inkberry]

Watching videos from 40 man naxx it's mind blowing how bad the "top" raiders were back then compared to the average relevant mythic raider today. Clicking keyboard turners in world firsts? You're kidding me right?

Naxx 40 would barely even count as content right now unless it had some absurd artificial difficulty like everyone needing x amount of resistance to this one specific element on certain fights. This thread has GOT to be joking.

edit: a word

[epec]

It depends on what you mean by "released in today's modern raiding environment." If you took Naxx and just copy and pasted it into the current game with the playerbase being completely ignorant of the raid mechanics, maybe two weeks to a month for hardcore guilds depending upon the requirements for farming and crafting resistance gear and consumables. There is so much unnecessary Kungen hate in this threat it is amazing. I am not a fan of either, but there is no denying he is a good player at least on some level due to his accomplishments.

- - - Updated - - -

Just numbers wise, 80-ramas was tuned similarly to LFR raids today and 60-ramas was tuned similarly to mythic raids today. And, similarly, 80-ramas had numerous mechanic nerfs especially on Four Horsemen, Kel'Thuzad, Heigan, and Maexxna.

I'm one of the rare few people that actually did both at times when they are relevant and I can confirm you are completely correct. 80 Naxx was extremely easy and designed to help fresh level 80 players gear up. 60 Naxx on the other hand was extremely difficult, especially when you consider the fact that: 1) There was far less data mining and fights had to be discovered as players explored them by attempting them over and over. 2) Gear progression was completely different and was much slower by farming older raids. 3)Resistance gear was a real factor and it had to be farmed up from frozen runes. 4) Class and spec balance was completely broken and some classes had to use very specific specs with very specific gear in order to be relevant in raids. 5) Players had much worse computers. The average decent to good computer back then was maybe a pentium 4 with a geforce 4 (later the 8800) running windows xp. Majority of people were lucky to get around 20-30 fps in raid on low to medium settings.

[relaxok]

Sorry for the necro but -- Just found and read this hilarious thread.

I guarantee nearly every person that's saying Naxx 40 was easy never set foot in it. I'd bet all my money on that.

My fairly good vanilla guild couldn't get past trash. My late-TBC raid guild started and cleared BT/Hyjal in a couple resets (and was progressing in Sunwell when WOTLK dropped) - we pulled in alternates and some others to our core 25 man group and tried to do Naxx 40 and got wrecked (in mostly BiS @ 70 gear)

As the actual Naxx raiders in here have said, the real issue was massive damage from abilities and ease of wiping. ANY non-tank was 1-shotted even by trash. There was no real aoe aggro or aoe heal worth a shit, threat mattered, etc. It's just not comparable to now but in many ways just as difficult.