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  1. #21
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    You shouldn't even be discussing this with your co-worker, only your superiors. Anything you say privately will be used against you.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So first... I'm glad German companies have this clause that your wages are secret and you have an obligation to keep it that way. People rarely compare wages to avoid the bullshit you've just described. Second, I'm with you until the point where I think you're actually mad because of how much you earn compared to someone else. I mean you are quite happy with the wages as they are, but the important bit of it seems for you seems to be that you also earn more than her.
    But his behaviour is perfectly normal, and sensible.

    Every penny/cent spent on salaries for a co-worker could be spent on your salary instead - in a perfect market that wouldn't work, but the labour market is far from perfect. Thus labour unions know that they indirectly compete against each other, and some claim that the rise of CEO-wages is to a large extent caused by this - by having a benchmark for other CEO-wages everyone wants to show that they are above average in salary - since they were clearly above average in skills.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    But his behaviour is perfectly normal, and sensible.

    Every penny/cent spent on salaries for a co-worker could be spent on your salary instead - in a perfect market that wouldn't work, but the labour market is far from perfect. Thus labour unions know that they indirectly compete against each other, and some claim that the rise of CEO-wages is to a large extent caused by this - by having a benchmark for other CEO-wages everyone wants to show that they are above average in salary - since they were clearly above average in skills.
    Not the point. The point is that they're creating a toxic work environment where you have to actually rely on professional conduct for this not to get out of hand. It's possible that instead of focussing 100% on his job, he's now 10% upset about the situation and she may even be 20% plotting to do some stupid office scheme to get more money...
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Not the point. The point is that they're creating a toxic work environment where you have to actually rely on professional conduct for this not to get out of hand. It's possible that instead of focussing 100% on his job, he's now 10% upset about the situation and she may even be 20% plotting to do some stupid office scheme to get more money...
    And I am saying that both his and her behaviour is perfectly normal.

    Yes, the work-place will be toxic - and it's one example of principal agent problem.
    The bonuses for working more cases are assumedly intended to handle that - likely in a somewhat broken way, and thus it seems odd to have different bonus structures for different people - if the cases are similar. It could be that the cases are different - but then it seems better to make a difference between the cases than between the workers. It seems more likely that there isn't any intention between the differences - he was just a better negotiator.

    If she never hits the target and he does, and therefore he gets more salary it would make sense, and she wouldn't have a strong complaint, - and the ideal situation from the company perspective would be that they then both competed to handle more cases - without interfering (but I doubt that will happen).

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by areasonableman View Post
    She claims she can't put the same hours in because she is a single mother , she has a 18 year old son that's at college for gods sake.
    I have encountered this almost verbatim. Except it was a daughter who is 19. If I didn't have to work with this person I'd kinda want to point out she must have done a pretty shit job of it if its still taking up so much of her time after 19 years
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  6. #26
    Everything else being equal, women are worse at negotiating salary/bonus increases compared to men. Fact of life.

    They are less willing to put pressure to get higher wages, and are willing to "let go" earlier when they get some increase.

    Thus with wages being secret women tend to receive less then men.

    Little "sexist" about it, they just don't fight for bigger wages as hard as men. When they do (which is rare) they get same wages.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Everything else being equal, women are worse at negotiating salary/bonus increases compared to men. Fact of life.

    They are less willing to put pressure to get higher wages, and are willing to "let go" earlier when they get some increase.

    Thus with wages being secret women tend to receive less then men.

    Little "sexist" about it, they just don't fight for bigger wages as hard as men. When they do (which is rare) they get same wages.
    They tend to work less, as well. Due to time off for Child care and other factors.

    Career women are scary, tho, they are savage.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Sorry I've not been back to reply it's been a hectic week, the long and short of it is she won and lost at the same time only the company comes out better now. Everyone has been Bumped up to my level of bonus but the targets have been increased by 25% weekly and 20% monthly. She has never came close to 10 a week consistently since I've been with the company so now she will get no bonus and only a handful of people in the team will do it. She won't last long and neither will a few others as we really do rely on that bonus otherwise we earn a paltry £23k basic and that's hard to live on. Another change brought into effect is a new system of cae distribution , she kicked off about that too. Heard saying No-lifers licking the arse of management to get better cases , obviously aimed at me.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Not the point. The point is that they're creating a toxic work environment where you have to actually rely on professional conduct for this not to get out of hand. It's possible that instead of focussing 100% on his job, he's now 10% upset about the situation and she may even be 20% plotting to do some stupid office scheme to get more money...
    It wasn't a toxic work environment until his co-workers looked at his pay stub without permission.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKT View Post
    I talk about my wage with my colleagues, if I was getting screwed over I'd want to know about it and vice versa.
    My company posts all company salaries underneath the pay schedule in the kitchen. On top of that we can receive project bonuses, holiday/annual bonuses, and overtime. But our base salary is shared. Beside salary is also position, years with the company, and education. I.e.

    John Doe $80,000, Associate Software Engineer, 6 months, B.S. in Computer Science
    John Smith $95,000, Software Engineer, 2 years, B.S. in Computer Science

    Naturally you have to consent to that information, some people wish to withhold their education/title, but they've never offered a contract to someone without the disclosure of at least pay in it, except for hourly workers.

    Got a problem with how much you make? Grab the pay chart and sit down with management.

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    Quote Originally Posted by areasonableman View Post
    Sorry I've not been back to reply it's been a hectic week, the long and short of it is she won and lost at the same time only the company comes out better now. Everyone has been Bumped up to my level of bonus but the targets have been increased by 25% weekly and 20% monthly. She has never came close to 10 a week consistently since I've been with the company so now she will get no bonus and only a handful of people in the team will do it. She won't last long and neither will a few others as we really do rely on that bonus otherwise we earn a paltry £23k basic and that's hard to live on. Another change brought into effect is a new system of cae distribution , she kicked off about that too. Heard saying No-lifers licking the arse of management to get better cases , obviously aimed at me.
    Congrats I suppose. Sounds kind of crummy for you, having the same bonus but higher goals. Hopefully you can make them without too much overtime!!!

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  11. #31
    My wife makes more money than her direct manager. She went in knowing what the low,median,high and cap pay for the job was and told them she wouldn't take the new position without at least an 85% comp ratio but preferably 90%. They must have liked her or were desperate for the position to be filled because they started her at 92% of the cap for her particular job. The best part is, when she is due up for the next promotion, she can use her current salary as the base for her new comp ratio.

    But she was in the position that she was fine with her former job and wouldn't leave it unless it was worthwhile. So she had the extra bargaining chip of just walking away and still being fine. Many people don't have that luxury or are happy for any kind of increase.

    OT- as a boss, I despise when my employees discuss pay. All it does is lead to resentment amongst the team and a headache for me.

  12. #32
    An office confrontation that began with an employee snatching a pay stub from a coworker and then bitching about their pay? Well this is contrived, and I have the easy solution: fire the bitches who think it's ok to look at other peoples paycheck. That's a fairly poor level of professionalism going on.

    There's no reason to have a discussion here beyond,"Why were you looking at his stub without permission?"

  13. #33
    I must've gotten off the wrong end of the wagon. I've always assumed that colleagues not discussing pay was largely beneficial to the employer. If everyone only fends for themselves without a measuring stick, every negotiation is a large gamble.
    If you know where you stand compared to your colleagues, you have a very different view on your own worth.

    If Bob is performing at a baseline 100% for 10$ an hour, and Mary performing 120% at 8$ an hour, known wages will give Mary an edge in negotiation. True, it may come at the cost of Bob's hourly wage, but to my mind that means he either gets paid what he's worth (less than Mary) or he starts performing to make himself deserving of the wage.

    This is probably my somewhat naive upbringing speaking, but I can't abide people earning more just because they have a smart mouth. Sounds like OP does have a solid track record, so I wouldn't argue against their higher numbers.


    I guess the point I'm trying to make (after a 12 hour shift - so far - so bear with me on the language) is that employers generally don't want to pay you what you're worth, only what they can get away with. Unless you've got massive balls or hard statistics, it's hard to negotiate something worthwhile.



    ... then again, who am I kidding. I'm on a non-negotiable government pay scale, so I can discuss utopian scenarios until I turn blue in the face :P

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Linadra View Post
    So, why should your bonus be more than double of hers anyway?
    That's what he negotiated. I see no problem with the OPs argument (yeah, I read it).

    When you rationally break it down to someone 1v1, everyone agrees. When it's open air discussion, people have fits. Same job, same experience, same performance, same pay. Easy. If things are not the same... pay shouldn't be either.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeardedOne View Post

    Thirdly it is 2016 why the fuck do you still have physical payslips?
    In the UK you get a lot of these smaller companies popping up in htings like Insolvency, PPI reclaim, 'no win, no fee' kind of places that often don't actually expect to be around for very long because they know their business practices are ethically questionable. They often pay their staff cash in an envelope with a computer printed payslip, usually weekly.

    They are a stain on society and the city I live in happens be known as somewhere that they are particularly prevalent.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Not the point. The point is that they're creating a toxic work environment where you have to actually rely on professional conduct for this not to get out of hand. It's possible that instead of focussing 100% on his job, he's now 10% upset about the situation and she may even be 20% plotting to do some stupid office scheme to get more money...
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE Bigzoman View Post
    Meant Wetback. That's what the guy from Home Depot called it anyway.
    ==================================
    If you say pls because it is shorter than please,
    I'll say no because it is shorter than yes.
    ==================================

  17. #37
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    It's so easy to paint oneself as a victim in the current cultural climate. Unless you're a straight white male, sorry guys.

    If you can compare your hours/success to theirs, and there's a clear pattern like you said - you deserve to be paid more. Hopefully your managers are more partial to productivity than your sex (lol).

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