Ret Paladin 7.0.3 DPS comparison

[Morally Grey Storm]

Well put, Bear.
I would not bother if I were you.
So kudos for bothering with this response.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Well put, Bear.
I would not bother if I were you.
So kudos for bothering with this response.

I'm being serious about this though, it's a problem created by the raid size going from 25 to 20- making competition for raid spots harder as well as further increasing the number of melee available.
2 Warrior specs. 2 DK specs. 3 Rogue specs. 1 Hunter spec. 1 Demon Hunter spec. 1 Shaman spec. 1 Druid spec. 1 Monk spec. 1 Paladin spec.
13 melee specs in total, that's twice the number of specs as there are raid spots for melee at the absolute max, 6-7.
First off the classes with multiple specs have a big upper hand on you since they bring potential more niches than you can ever do on any of the single dps spec classes (melee). Then you have to compete with all of those spec individually and somehow find something that is A) high value in raids, numbers B) strong raid tools.
As it sits currently in 110:
Warriors bring the best raid tools with Commanding Shout, a proper raid cd. They also have execute windows as one of the few in the game, depending on the spec they also do AoE/Cleave very well.
DKs have grips, even if they're single target they can be very useful to position mobs. They do impressive sustained aoe and burst aoe depending on spec.
Rogues (atm) brings very good numbers, plus they're very mobile and got good survivability. Their specs (mainly two) also brings good numbers in different niches.
Hunter (survival) is bleh, it's like a "fun" thing. 90% sure Survival won't ever be used for raiding in the first 2 raids- MM just does a lot better.
Demon Hunter is a new class and will very likely be overtuned to make people play it (and be forgiving since it's new), but they do a lot of damage and their mechanics allows them to do AoE burst very well, they're also extremely mobile.
now we're getting into the bleh
Shaman (Enh) is extremely good at 110, they got talents that allows them to swap from being very single target to being bursty and so on and they also bring a raid sprint totem. They struggle in some areas though.
Druid has gotten a number of good changes and will do good on ST and 3 target cleave, they can also do a fair amount of damage on sustained aoe. They bring a raid sprint but struggle with burst dps.
Monk (WW) is still super mobile and cleaves like nothing else (almost) but that's about it... I've yet to find someone in my social network to main one in Legion...
Paladin (Ret) Ok+ Single Target, brings a few raid tools that may see some significant use in 2-3 encounters in the first two raids. Shockingly poor cleave and AoE burst. Mobility like a run over snail (only DKs are worse off in the entire game), talents/passives/"class fantasy mechanics" that are just pathetic...

If I'm right now to rank the melees I want in my raid team; Rogue > DK = Warrior > DH = Enh > Feral > Ret = Windwalker.
That's just based on what I've seen in our and other guilds raid tests, forum discussions and first hand experience after playing beta for 14/15 days ingame played with almost no afk time. I do find Ret more usable than WW but they do have that movement speed aura which can be good, very good on some encounters. I really do wish Ret was more fun, more "oompf" and so on- Ret is always going to be my dream spec to main since I always seek out the "support-melee" combination whenever I play games, any game. It's just a shame how it's just fallen apart with the number of melee in the game... 13 melee specs vs 11 ranged and you want 6-7 melee (at most) vs 9-11 ranged if not more. I mean there's a reason why every raid has 2-3 mages, hunters and warlocks...

[Alindra]

Fair enough.
I've made a mistake here.
Am I not allowed to?

No.

Kidding aside, I don't hold mistakes against people if they can admit they were wrong. I've just heard that fallacy about being balanced around 3 GBoMs more than once and I wanted to take the opportunity to correct it. That being said...

Anyone thinking rets won't use GBoM over the other buffs for 90% of encounters are foolish, even blizzard... it's a stupid spell through and through. The fact that you can't change who it's on while in combat anymore just further sticks a burning candle up where the sun never shines, somehow you need to put it on someone you trust won't die at the same time as you need to put it on someone who's going to increase your damage by the most.

[ ... ]

The entire Greater Blessings idea is such BS

...I absolutely agree with this. Even though Blizzard says we're balanced around 1<=X<=3 GBoMs, we'll pretty much always be using 3 of them. I also agree that Greater Blessings are a completely missed opportunity. I have no issue with - and even agree with Blizzard - that having strong buffs is something that could work very well for Retribution. The "system" that they've chosen to represent that, however, just stinks. I envisioned something closer to Warhammer's Warrior-Priests, or heck, something like Hammer of Reckoning being built into all Greater Blessings.

Fire and forget buffs that we're (at least partly) balanced around having up that are combat locked and have no interaction with anything else? *sigh*

[DrMcNinja]

This is by far the most bland incarnation of Ret I've played in a long time. Thanks Blizz, I didn't think it would be possible.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Fire and forget buffs that we're (at least partly) balanced around having up that are combat locked and have no interaction with anything else? *sigh*

The sad thing is that GBoM actually isn't, depending on XYZ you want it on ABC. There are so many variables to consider that it's going to make it HELL to pick a person to buff.
The damage shows (and should) as the Rets damage but in the "raid eyes" you're increasing someones dps by 3%-4%. So then you got to ask, do I buff whoever's going to net me (the Ret) the most flat out damage or do I want to buff someone that is going to priority focus down adds. For example Arms Warriors will very likely not be the strongest ST dpsers but they will do great damage to adds which may or may not be important on certain encounters, then do you want to amp your raids burst AoE dps or do you want yourself to gain a little more overall damage by buffing a MM hunter or Assa Rogue? Arguably one of the biggest damage increases people see is during execute phases, largely being Fury Warriors, so do you buff them knowing that you may or may not get into Execute phase during progression?
Further on that point you need to trust whoever you buff to not die because you can't cast GBoM on someone during combat so if they die you're fucked as far as your damage increase. Then you need to do this entire process for every single boss, most likely more than just once because as you progress things the strategy might change. One week maybe you don't have the Arms Warrior to burst AoE so you need to buff someone that takes their job (or tries). Maybe from one raid night to another someone gets a new Legendary that makes them a good pick for GBoM.

There's just too much ifs and buts, it's such a simple buff but in reality it's so fucking complex in using it optimally. Why they couldn't just make the Ret himself do the damage I don't know... From encounter to encounter you as Ret has to know what ALL the classes and specs can do so you can buff the best target, which changes depending on artifact traits, trinkets, set items and so on.

It's just so mindbogingly stupid of a spell... only added to fit some class fantasy, but remove Hammer of Wrath? that they can do...

[Deleted]

This is by far the most bland incarnation of Ret I've played in a long time. Thanks Blizz, I didn't think it would be possible.

not sure if troll or just ... (edited to avoid ban hammer)

[Deleted]

That damage is applied to us which is a dps increase for ret

Idk if it has been stated already because reading all of this makes me wanna puke, but from what I see actually neither ingame-addons like skada, nor external sites like warcraftlogs count GBoM damage towards us, but towards the buffed player instead. Dunno if BUG or woa, or fixed yet.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&target=207

Dez, Shira, Larthis



Edit:

Might (got it? MIGHT ) be fixed already:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...GWtLd#fight=37

[Deleted]

not sure if troll or just ... (edited to avoid ban hammer)

He probably means in recent memory. Post Wotlk. But in the place we are in the game, it can be considered as by TBC standards, Ret was about in line with other classes (locks for example were all about spamming shadow bolt. Ret was alot of hoping for seal of casino procs and watching swing timers for when to do your judgements, wich couldn't be freaquent due to mana issues. But every class was a bit broken like that during vanilla and TBC.
So, the only competition is Cataclysm Ret. Wich was awful. Is this worse? Difficult to say, but they both are frustrating to play. The feeling i get from Legion Ret is the same from Cata Ret. So many ramp ups to get to the fun part.

[Doombringer]

I watched the "extended" Legion trailer today... got to the Demon Hunter section... saw so many cool abilities and visual cues...

Looking at Ret, it seems like the spec is asleep by comparison.

Honestly, compare the two and tell me that Ret has even half of the flavor and feel that Demon Hunters do. And worse there are plenty of existing classes that also have a much better feel, function and look than Ret.

[Alindra]

The sad thing is that GBoM actually isn't, depending on XYZ you want it on ABC. There are so many variables to consider that it's going to make it HELL to pick a person to buff.

<< snip >>

There's just too much ifs and buts, it's such a simple buff but in reality it's so fucking complex in using it optimally. Why they couldn't just make the Ret himself do the damage I don't know... From encounter to encounter you as Ret has to know what ALL the classes and specs can do so you can buff the best target, which changes depending on artifact traits, trinkets, set items and so on.

These are very valid points, but I consider it "fire and forget" because once combat starts, there is nothing you can do about. It's more a pre-combat calculation (like gear, gems, enchanting, etc is) than something you have any sort of interaction with.

It's just so mindbogingly stupid of a spell... only added to fit some class fantasy, but remove Hammer of Wrath? that they can do...

I really do miss Hammer of Wrath. As questionable as the content in WoD was, I really enjoyed how Ret played in it. It has a nice flow to it. You knew you had wings up because of hammer time. I also took for granted how much pacing something like Execution Sentence gave. It was something to line up wings with, and it paced using Wings charges. (1st ES had AW and Ring, second ES had AW, third AW had AW and Ring, etc.) I've found that I've actually lost track of when wings were up / down because the rotation doesn't change and I don't have ES to line up with.

Simplistic rotation while in AW? Sure, but I found it satisfying. (It still had variation to it, too, thanks to EmpDS and FV.)

- - - Updated - - -

Idk if it has been stated already because reading all of this makes me wanna puke, but from what I see actually neither ingame-addons like skada, nor external sites like warcraftlogs count GBoM damage towards us, but towards the buffed player instead. Dunno if BUG or woa, or fixed yet.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&target=207

Dez, Shira, Larthis



Edit:

Might (got it? MIGHT ) be fixed already:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...GWtLd#fight=37

Warcraft logs attributes GBoM to the Ret, but in game meters (well, Details! at least) still attributes it to who we've cast it on. I read that this was a bug in how Blizzard has implemented it so addons would have to add special code to track who cast and has Might, and parse it as damage events come in.

[Snegovik]

When Huntingbear joins the hate group, its done. Game over folks, Rets flag is upside down.

- - - Updated - - -



I am going to give it a shot... Unless I really like Demon Hunter. I can't make up my mind if I like it or not.

I am going lvl my DH to 110 1st and if i Like my DH, well bye bye Nerfed and Gimmick Spec 4ever, i will not look back as i say goodbye to my relationship of 9 years lol. Honestly from what i have seen @ Beta, DH reminds me more of a Ret DPS lore than Ret itself lol...

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

COLOR="#417394"]Warcraft logs attributes GBoM to the Ret, but in game meters (well, Details! at least) still attributes it to who we've cast it on. I read that this was a bug in how Blizzard has implemented it so addons would have to add special code to track who cast and has Might, and parse it as damage events come in.

See Blizzard stated that Rets will be balanced around having ANY Greater Blessing out, regardless if it's Might, Wisdom or Kings. However since DPS is ALWAYS the highest demand (and ret fills a dps spot...) it's just not going to matter what Blizzard states about it, it is and will ONLY be worth to have Might on people.
Regardless of how Damage Meter addons or WoL tracks it you're going to keep might on whoever in your raid does the most dps or whoever does the most dps to things you're struggling with, be it packs of AoE and you buff Arms Warriors, MM Hunters for target switching or Shadow Priest for whatever they're kings at.

On average a BoM will do 3-4% of the damage whoever you place the buff on, meaning if X player has a legendary then they are valued higher for you. If Y player does extremely well on a boss encounter because of his/her spec then they get priority. I just find the entire idea annoying as fuck, it's like a Symbiosis from hell...

[Alindra]

See Blizzard stated that Rets will be balanced around having ANY Greater Blessing out, regardless if it's Might, Wisdom or Kings. However since DPS is ALWAYS the highest demand (and ret fills a dps spot...) it's just not going to matter what Blizzard states about it, it is and will ONLY be worth to have Might on people.
Regardless of how Damage Meter addons or WoL tracks it you're going to keep might on whoever in your raid does the most dps or whoever does the most dps to things you're struggling with, be it packs of AoE and you buff Arms Warriors, MM Hunters for target switching or Shadow Priest for whatever they're kings at.

On average a BoM will do 3-4% of the damage whoever you place the buff on, meaning if X player has a legendary then they are valued higher for you. If Y player does extremely well on a boss encounter because of his/her spec then they get priority. I just find the entire idea annoying as fuck, it's like a Symbiosis from hell...

This response leaves me a bit confused.

I've said that I agree we'll be putting out GBoM x3. I know GBoM averages out to ~3% damage increase to the target (less if they're a class with pets, as they don't proc Might). I understand that it doesn't matter who meters and logs say did the damage. The post you quoted was me replying to Lychnuchus explaining that the reporting of Might was still busted in game (regardless of it changing anything) but working in WarcraftLogs.

Your reply sounds like an argument / disagreement when we're actually on the same page. Am I misunderstanding something?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Your reply sounds like an argument / disagreement when we're actually on the same page. Am I misunderstanding something?

Just a reminder that regardless of how any addon or logs track Blessing of Might damage Rets will have to put it up x3 for just about every fight.
Maybe in 1.5 years when Arcane Mages have 200% mastery they get a bigger benefit from Wisdom than they do from Might, however that's a big if... maybe you'd even end up giving a really geared mage Might + Wisdom.

[Crackalackin]

Warcraft logs attributes GBoM to the Ret, but in game meters (well, Details! at least) still attributes it to who we've cast it on. I read that this was a bug in how Blizzard has implemented it so addons would have to add special code to track who cast and has Might, and parse it as damage events come in.

Wanted to confirm that even on WCL GBoM is bugged if you have a Ret GBoM himself, and another Ret also GBoM them. Paladin A will get credit for both their GBoM on Paladin B and Paladin B's GBoM on themself.

Example - Logs from last night

At 2:15.719 I (Crackalackn), have a BoW tick for 23040 damage. At the same time another ret who has two GBoM's. (himself and me) has a double GBoM tick for 13824 (60% not 30% or does GBoM double-dip on Gorefiends +100% taken debuff?). They don't proc on the same hit often, but when they do they also tick for double(Unless double-dipping), assigned to only one of the two GBoM casters though. Doranos had 50 procs of GBoM from me, while I only had 219 damage incidents over the course of the fight, a 23% proc rate which explains how WCL records me as having no GBoM damage from my self buff.

Anyone else noticing this? I didn't dig too much into it last week when I discovered it, but am concretely sure of what the error is now.

Edit: Upon looking through for other double proc incidents it would appear that GBoM does double-dip on Gorefiends damage taken debuff. The double procs are both assigned to one paladin, but they aren't proccing for double damage as well.

[rreapers]

First of all the charts are close to true numbers second thing the chart based at least on 6 min fight How in the name of god you compare burst damage for the chart ?! LOL and you really think rept paladin for 18 sec fight
300k rept pala ? bad get rekt
unholy dk 600k , fire mage 500k ele shaman 450k so the chart almost true for middps
and never compare burst damage you will look very noob

[Deleted]

I honestly cannot understand what you are trying to say here. In normal english please?

[Shakeez]

Ret pally is limited in scalability but not too bad in absolute numbers. Problem is that it is just awful to play. Anyway I quit on my 735 Mythic Ret and play Elemental now. Ret suxx.

[Deleted]

Dunno bout how noxxic works however one can take a snapshot of current ret standing through warcraftlogs .... As one could easily predict we marginally outperform monks and maybe wars ( we also outperform some speccs of the rest classes but who cares bout frost mages lewl). Good thing is we take part in quite some parses although we have to take into account that this far into farmed content we are allowed to attend raids....

[Deleted]

Dunno bout how noxxic works however one can take a snapshot of current ret standing through warcraftlogs .... As one could easily predict we marginally outperform monks and maybe wars ( we also outperform some speccs of the rest classes but who cares bout frost mages lewl). Good thing is we take part in quite some parses although we have to take into account that this far into farmed content we are allowed to attend raids....

It's also with 3 wings stacks. Thas what worries me the most. We won't have that in Legion. The noxxic chart looks to be in general ballpark to me. At least before any legendaries and new tier sets.

- - - Updated - - -

So, i came across this chart. I am not gonna claim it is super accurate on anything. Some things are clearly not finished but it does continue to show the same trend (for Ret):
http://imgur.com/iINFSWn?r

Very worrying...