Arms Legion Discussion

[Warriorsarri]

With AM and DC Reck is used, on average, every 27 seconds.

[ericcrazy]

what would be the uptime of reck with AM,

http://www.wowhead.com/item=140806/c...tes&bonus=1807

and arms 2 piece bonus?

[Artunias]

what would be the uptime of reck with AM,

http://www.wowhead.com/item=140806/c...tes&bonus=1807

and arms 2 piece bonus?

EDIT: Whoops, more like ~40% with that trinket and tier bonus.

[Deleted]

What are the chances of us ignoring 4p for ST fights?

We will have CS reset, yes but we would barely have enough time to ramp FR up to 3 to take advantage of SD/Zakajz.
Depends on the math and rng, as always.
In best case scenario ( 10% probability for both WW to proc Tactitian ) we will have 2 SD+3FR under Reck+DC vs proper itemization. Hmm ...

Set pieces itemization is just garbage =\
Only hands/cloak/maybe shoulders are passable.

[volgon]

What are the chances of us ignoring 4p for ST fights?

We will have CS reset, yes but we would barely have enough time to ramp FR up to 3 to take advantage of SD/Zakajz.
Depends on the math and rng, as always.
In best case scenario ( 10% probability for both WW to proc Tactitian ) we will have 2 SD+3FR under Reck+DC vs proper itemization. Hmm ...

Set pieces itemization is just garbage =\
Only hands/cloak/maybe shoulders are passable.

Are you referring to T19 4p? Because that bonus hasn't been updated since they changed Tactician from a % chance per ability to a scaling % based on rage spent. As it's currently implemented it wouldn't function with the FR build anyway since FR isn't included on the set bonus.

[Deleted]

Are you referring to T19 4p? Because that bonus hasn't been updated since they changed Tactician from a % chance per ability to a scaling % based on rage spent. As it's currently implemented it wouldn't function with the FR build anyway since FR isn't included on the set bonus.

That's exactly why I am asking that question. If the set bonus stays the same will we skip it w/ FR build or not.

[Artunias]

That's exactly why I am asking that question. If the set bonus stays the same will we skip it w/ FR build or not.

Not worth speculating/discussing until it gets closer to that patch. The set bonuses are a very low priority right now because they won't be available until several months after release with the second raid (Nighthold)

They will almost certainly be changed/adjusted in the coming months.

[Deleted]

A fair point.

[Rafalga]

they said 7.1 PTR will launch momentarily with the expansion. I expect some adjustments to the tier sets during that time.

[Rorke]

I absolutely despise Legion Defensive Stance. It' ruining my enjoyment for this spec in PvP to the point where I've been just playing Fury for PvP.

Why the fuck does the cd need to be 10 seconds? I understand why there's a cd, they want you to be somewhat punished for swapping out of Defensive Stance but 10 seconds is way too fucking long. And this is why I hate Defensive Stance because its just almost never worth leaving. With that 10 second cd, you run the risk of just getting chain CC'd and shit on before you're able to run back into Defensive Stance.

I hate the ugly sword and board animation too. Since I'm sitting in Defensive stance 95% of the time it looks like I'm playing a fucking Prot Warrior 95% of the time. It's horrendous and I have no idea what the fuck they were thinking with this shit.

The 20% reduction doesn't even feel good anymore, especially when you consider you don't have Enraged Regeneration. So you're basically living 20% longer at the cost of 10% of your damage. And if you leave Defensive Stance then you're basically easy pickings for anything that attacks you especially the overpowered leather melee on beta that have better mobility than you, better damage than you, better CC than you and have stronger defensive tools.

At least Fury can fucking heal and the mobility with Barbarian is insane especially if you pair it with Double Time and Bounding Strides. Slaughterhouse is actually pretty good defensively for 1v1's but you'll still get gibbed if more than one person gets the jump on you. And what I like about Fury is that it doesn't give a shit how much damage its taking. All it cares about is how much damage its putting out.

[Fiftyonred]

I absolutely despise Legion Defensive Stance. It' ruining my enjoyment for this spec in PvP to the point where I've been just playing Fury for PvP.

Why the fuck does the cd need to be 10 seconds? I understand why there's a cd, they want you to be somewhat punished for swapping out of Defensive Stance but 10 seconds is way too fucking long. And this is why I hate Defensive Stance because its just almost never worth leaving. With that 10 second cd, you run the risk of just getting chain CC'd and shit on before you're able to run back into Defensive Stance.

I hate the ugly sword and board animation too. Since I'm sitting in Defensive stance 95% of the time it looks like I'm playing a fucking Prot Warrior 95% of the time. It's horrendous and I have no idea what the fuck they were thinking with this shit.

The 20% reduction doesn't even feel good anymore, especially when you consider you don't have Enraged Regeneration. So you're basically living 20% longer at the cost of 10% of your damage. And if you leave Defensive Stance then you're basically easy pickings for anything that attacks you especially the overpowered leather melee on beta that have better mobility than you, better damage than you, better CC than you and have stronger defensive tools.

At least Fury can fucking heal and the mobility with Barbarian is insane especially if you pair it with Double Time and Bounding Strides. Slaughterhouse is actually pretty good defensively for 1v1's but you'll still get gibbed if more than one person gets the jump on you. And what I like about Fury is that it doesn't give a shit how much damage its taking. All it cares about is how much damage its putting out.

Maybe I missed something, but where is fury ability to heal outside of enrage regeneration and bloodthirst with the 300% after charge talent?

[Flaks]

Maybe I missed something, but where is fury ability to heal outside of enrage regeneration and bloodthirst with the 300% after charge talent?

It really doesn't need more than that considering you have a 20% heal every 20 to 17 seconds or even more often if you take double time along with being able to heal to full every 2 minutes. Meanwhile arms is just a countdown to dying with no means of healing unless you have mobs around you to kill or you're versing the worst players ever who don't put dots on you and let you get away for more than 5 seconds especially since arms has some of the weakest melee mobility in legion.

Meanwhile prot is competing with demon hunters and monks for how mobile it is, bursts as hard as arms, can tank tons of damage, and provides great utility. Any class that has a tank spec but is instead going dps for pvp is gimping themselves pretty hard; especially warriors.

[Fiftyonred]

It really doesn't need more than that considering you have a 20% heal every 20 to 17 seconds or even more often if you take double time along with being able to heal to full every 2 minutes. Meanwhile arms is just a countdown to dying with no means of healing unless you have mobs around you to kill or you're versing the worst players ever who don't put dots on you and let you get away for more than 5 seconds especially since arms has some of the weakest melee mobility in legion.

Meanwhile prot is competing with demon hunters and monks for how mobile it is, bursts as hard as arms, can tank tons of damage, and provides great utility. Any class that has a tank spec but is instead going dps for pvp is gimping themselves pretty hard; especially warriors.

Isn't it a 12% heal or am I missing certain pvp talents that you took into account?

[Anbokr]

Damn, I'm just not understanding the fury pvp love. I have the exact opposite impression as some of you, fury annoys me to no end. Similar damage to arms (but less burst), no mortal strike debuff, no defensive stance, AND you take 30% more damage. I just hate how everyone's damage is relatively balanced yet fury has to take 30% extra damage to dish out their damage. And sure, the self-healing is meant to offset this, but you can't self-heal reliably while CC'd and ever since fury received that 50% self-healing reduction it has felt pretty bad.

Maybe I'm playing a different game, but I'm really hoping they reduce enrage amp to 20% (15% talented) and revert the 50% nerf on bloodthirst heal. I think these two changes will make fury competitive with arms, but right now there's no reason in my eyes to play fury over arms. You just gimp yourself by giving an already bursty pvp meta the opportunity to annihilate you faster than an afk clothie with just one single stun.

As for tanks, yeah they are pretty good in legion, but they many of them have a ton of damage reductions on individual spells, lowered defensive templates, and a flat 15% damage reduction. They are definitely fun and viable, but OP? I don't know, outside of Brewmaster I think the other tanks are fairly balanced.

[Artunias]

Isn't it a 12% heal or am I missing certain pvp talents that you took into account?

It would be a 16% heal naturally, but all bloodthirst healing is cut in half in PvP.

So it would be 8%. Bloodthirst is naturally 2%. And enraged Regeneration is a 12% heal on every Bloodthirst.

That healing nerf is pretty damn stupid after all the other nerfs and bug fixes we've gotten over the last several months, and it destroys our defensive cooldown.

[Anbokr]

It would be a 16% heal naturally, but all bloodthirst healing is cut in half in PvP.

So it would be 8%. Bloodthirst is naturally 2%. And enraged Regeneration is a 12% heal on every Bloodthirst.

That healing nerf is pretty damn stupid after all the other nerfs and bug fixes we've gotten over the last several months, and it destroys our defensive cooldown.

Yep. I'd play fury in a heartbeat if they revert the 50% heal reduction. The hilarious part is that fury was OP in early beta because it was 1 shotting people when very little tuning had taken place. So they nerf the healing. Then they tune damage lol... Great stuff.

[Flaks]

It would be a 16% heal naturally, but all bloodthirst healing is cut in half in PvP.

So it would be 8%. Bloodthirst is naturally 2%. And enraged Regeneration is a 12% heal on every Bloodthirst.

That healing nerf is pretty damn stupid after all the other nerfs and bug fixes we've gotten over the last several months, and it destroys our defensive cooldown.

Wasn't aware of those nerfs. Yea that's pretty stupid.

What really pisses me off is that tank specs are better than their dps counterparts in all pvp. I mean, the idea of making tanks viable in pvp was itself always a stupid premise but making them better is just a while another level of full retard.

[Rorke]

Maybe I missed something, but where is fury ability to heal outside of enrage regeneration and bloodthirst with the 300% after charge talent?

Bloodthirst heal is good when you combine it with Furious Charge and Slaughterhouse. Slaughterhouse depending on the targets health makes bloodthirst basically spammable so you can at least maintain some kind of healing. You aren't going to top yourself off, but you'll at least be able to contend against another classes sustained damage. It also pairs extremely well during Enraged Regeneration where your Bloodthirst healing is increased. The artifact weapon also buffs your stamina during enrage, so that's even more healing and if you're below 20% health, Bloodthirst heals even more.

I'm not saying Arms is bad. It's actually extremely balanced, in fact this entire class is balanced. It just has weaknesses that can't be overcome by its tool kit. The problem is that other classes can override their weaknesses with their overpowered toolkit. It really doesn't matter how many times Blizzard nerfs Sub Rogue/WW Monk damage, their toolkit is just insane that any good player is going to mop the floor with you no matter what you do to them.

Arms is too niche, its been stripped down to only work in arena. And I just hate the playstyle of it where you have to look at that ugly shield animation the whole time. There's just no tools it has that you can use to outplay anyone. You just run in, deal as much retarded damage as you can and either win by overwhelming them or you just die. There's no way to reset a fight or do anything.

It's always been that way in some sense previously but now its just too much. I can't believe they even had ideas of removing Intimidating Shout from the Warrior toolkit.

[Anbokr]

^I do agree, and it's kind of the nature of this whole pvp template balancing style.

We're going to reach a point this expansion where the classes/specs with insane toolkits are going to have such low stat multipliers and the guys with narrow toolkits have such high multipliers. Whereas that rogue will be balanced by his wide variety of answers, that frost DK is going to be balanced by passive numbers, obscene stuff like 200% versatility (that we're already seeing slapped onto classes).

Can't say I'm a fan because it leads to a band-aid solution where one spec/class is a numerical behemoth with insane passive damage/tanking and another has all the tools in the toybox but is stripped of any passive defense. Rather than the real problem (i.e. that dh/warr/dk bring nothing but damage to the table and the other guy brings literally everything) being addressed you just end up with enormous disparities in passive mitigation and damage multipliers which just doesn't always feel fun.

[Conformed]

Is there somewhere I can look at the suggested artifact point pathing?