Did they seriously nerf rerolling RtB

[Flaks]

What gets me is how picking snd not only has the opportunity cost of the other two talent but is in fact a 15% damage nerf compared to rtb's worst procs.

[shaunika123]

there's nothing "deep" about it. you either get lucky or you don't. unlike ""keep this up and refresh every 40 seconds"", maintaining the correct rtb buffs is completely out of your control.

tilting RNG in your favour is way more deep than keeping up a buff that was trivial even 11 years ago, and as i said, this means no two fights will be the same which is something that makes the spec more dynamic

[Deleted]

tilting RNG in your favour is way more deep than keeping up a buff that was trivial even 11 years ago, and as i said, this means no two fights will be the same which is something that makes the spec more dynamic

I would love to see you go into a casino and "tilt RNG in your favour" playing craps.

[Evolixe]

Well given they are trying to make the gameplay actually FUN as opposed to boring as shit. SnD can be talented into so just do that instead, you have your option. I am sure if we had it your way there would be three buttons, "Do exactly 178 damage" and "Do exactly 368 damage, but on a 13.2514 sec cooldown" and so forth.

An option to be inferior isn't an option at all.

Like someone said before, there is nothing interesting about it. You get lucky or you don't.
Its stupid, doesn't make the gameplay any more interesting just a hell of a lot more painful.

[Generical]

I can't remember it working any other way either. At least on Live servers.

[ymirsson]

tilting RNG in your favour is way more deep than keeping up a buff that was trivial even 11 years ago, and as i said, this means no two fights will be the same which is something that makes the spec more dynamic

RNG is not dynamic.
Rerolling is not tilting anything anyway.

Having 6 buffs is fun, but winning the lottery is also fun.

[darkwarrior42]

you do realize RNG isnt inherently a bad thing right?

if there was no RNG everything would be exactly the same and that'd be boring

Opinion is opinion? I was really wanting to come back to Rogue this expansion, but I only ever play Combat because I'm not fond of daggers.

Then I saw that Outlaw's performance is governed not by skill, but by dice.

If you think I'm wrong, try to beat another Outlaw when they get 2+ buffs on every roll and you never get more than one. Unless you seriously outgear them, you won't.

Personally I avoid RNG like the plague wherever I can (including avoiding specs that rely too heavily on procs, as well as specs that are depending on Crit to function), because I want my performance to be based on me.... I"d rather lose due to my skill than win due to luck.

[shaunika123]

I would love to see you go into a casino and "tilt RNG in your favour" playing craps.

RtB is more like poker, you may get an unlucky/lucky streak but if you play your cards right you'll get more benefit over in the long run.

dont get me wrong, im not saying it's some sort of really hard high skillcap OMG thing, but in pve nothing is, and in pvp it does matter when and what and how many CPs you reroll with so it is infact infinitely harder than keeping up slice and dice, because as i said, that was easy 11 years ago let alone now.

[ymirsson]

RtB is more like poker, you may get an unlucky/lucky streak but if you play your cards right you'll get more benefit over in the long run.

Play your cards right?
Rerolling is not playing poker, it's just revealing cards from a stack.
You may know which buffs are optimal, when to reroll and when not to, but in the end, the random number of buffs is just that: random.

I can understand the visceral feel of power when i get a 6 roll, but it's nothing you can "play right"

[Wow]

Personally I avoid RNG like the plague wherever I can (including avoiding specs that rely too heavily on procs, as well as specs that are depending on Crit to function), because I want my performance to be based on me.... I"d rather lose due to my skill than win due to luck.

Then you pretty much want to avoid rogues in legion of any spec but sub and most legion specs period.

[Kalisandra]

Personally I avoid RNG like the plague wherever I can (including avoiding specs that rely too heavily on procs, as well as specs that are depending on Crit to function), because I want my performance to be based on me.... I"d rather lose due to my skill than win due to luck.

Play Retribution then. You can avoid random procs entirely and still be taking one of the top talent combinations. It's mind-numbingly boring IMO, but there's no RNG there and Crit isn't too important to its DPS either.

[Deleted]

RtB is more like poker, you may get an unlucky/lucky streak but if you play your cards right you'll get more benefit over in the long run.

Oh yes Im sure if I average my overall 2 years DPS after expansion is over, RtB wont be a problem.

[shaunika123]

Oh yes Im sure if I average my overall 2 years DPS after expansion is over, RtB wont be a problem.

or stop thinking in WoD fight lengths, not every fight is gonna be 18 seconds in legion, in fact most will be over 4-6 minutes which means a lot of opportunities to roll the right RtB, that's what i mean by long term, obviously there's gonna be variance, but there already was with trinkets, multistriking at the right time and so on, a little RNG isnt the end of the world and it's gonna keep outlaw from being completely monotonous

[Soisoisoi]

That used to be different? Afaik its been like that since last weeks live patch.

I can't remember it working any other way either. At least on Live servers.

Yeah... this. It has never done that. It has always rolled fresh buffs no matter what amount of Combo Points you use it at.

[Willoughby]

RtB is more like poker, you may get an unlucky/lucky streak but if you play your cards right you'll get more benefit over in the long run.

RtB is nothing like poker, it's more like a slot machine. You sink CP into it until it gives you a result you can at least live with.

or stop thinking in WoD fight lengths, not every fight is gonna be 18 seconds in legion, in fact most will be over 4-6 minutes which means a lot of opportunities to roll the right RtB, that's what i mean by long term, obviously there's gonna be variance, but there already was with trinkets, multistriking at the right time and so on, a little RNG isnt the end of the world and it's gonna keep outlaw from being completely monotonous

I think you're looking at this completely wrong here. RtB's unreliability makes it uniquely unsuited to progression (you can't just "save" a 6 buff roll for an important DPS check), but it may be kinda fun to fish for ridiculous parses with once fights get down to 45 seconds.

[shaunika123]

RtB is nothing like poker, it's more like a slot machine. You sink CP into it until it gives you a result you can at least live with.



I think you're looking at this completely wrong here. RtB's unreliability makes it uniquely unsuited to progression (you can't just "save" a 6 buff roll for an important DPS check), but it may be kinda fun to fish for ridiculous parses with once fights get down to 45 seconds.

except is way more reliable than you'd think

bad buffs can be rolled away, and 2-3+ buffs and/or shark have a pretty good chance at proccing, especially on 110 when run through will be much less of our damage using CPs on RtB wont be that big a deal, it's controlled RNG which isnt bad. it's the essence of the spec and what makes it fun, i understand if you dont like it(i dont like a lot of specs, but i dont play them either) but it's infinitely more engaging than combat for me because that was just dull, uninteresting and i literally wanted to tear my hair out when i played it(in fact i didnt unless i was doing dungeons, even on "combat" fights i just ran sub because i could perform better on a spec that doesnt make me want to kill myself

[Saintlel]

I can't remember it working any other way either. At least on Live servers.

I wish I recorded my runs or something then, because I'm 99% sure they changed it, I mean even Icy-Veins talks about Pandemic effecting it

[Nikkaszal]

I wish I recorded my runs or something then, because I'm 99% sure they changed it, I mean even Icy-Veins talks about Pandemic effecting it

Pandemic does affect it - which means on a 6cp RtB you can refresh it with under 8sec or so to go and that 8sec will be added to the bew duration.

Pandemic doesn't mean "refresh instantly and get the entire duration added"

[Willoughby]

except is way more reliable than you'd think

There's no reason to "think" about how reliable it is. There's a probability table out there, and it's not all that reliable. It's the reason why Outlaw's DPS delta is so huge.

bad buffs can be rolled away, and 2-3+ buffs and/or shark have a pretty good chance at proccing, especially on 110 when run through will be much less of our damage using CPs on RtB wont be that big a deal, it's controlled RNG which isnt bad. it's the essence of the spec and what makes it fun, i understand if you dont like it(i dont like a lot of specs, but i dont play them either) but it's infinitely more engaging than combat for me because that was just dull, uninteresting and i literally wanted to tear my hair out when i played it(in fact i didnt unless i was doing dungeons, even on "combat" fights i just ran sub because i could perform better on a spec that doesnt make me want to kill myself

"Just roll it away" is a given, but the way you say that, one would assume rerolling was free and instant. It takes time, has a resource cost and you won't necessarily get what you need when you need it to meet those progression DPS checks.

I'm not the biggest fan of WoD Combat, but at least you could reasonably reliably time your burst for specific points in a fight when your raid needs it pull after pull. It was utilitarian, whereas Outlaw is purely fantasy.

Though obviously if you raid in an environment where you're given the freedom to play whatever spec you want even if it's not ideal to the fight, this probably isn't relevant to you.

[shaunika123]

There's no reason to "think" about how reliable it is. There's a probability table out there, and it's not all that reliable. It's the reason why Outlaw's DPS delta is so huge.



"Just roll it away" is a given, but the way you say that, one would assume rerolling was free and instant. It takes time, has a resource cost and you won't necessarily get what you need when you need it to meet those progression DPS checks.

I'm not the biggest fan of WoD Combat, but at least you could reasonably reliably time your burst for specific points in a fight when your raid needs it pull after pull. It was utilitarian, whereas Outlaw is purely fantasy.

Though obviously if you raid in an environment where you're given the freedom to play whatever spec you want even if it's not ideal to the fight, this probably isn't relevant to you.

i raid in a world #240 guild we killed archi in november so yeah it's not exactly a casual guild (obviously not the best ever either) so you dont need to be condescending, i pulled my weight, i remember that i begrudgingly went combat for xhul horac and HFA but other than that i didnt need to.

yes if i absolutely had to i went combat, but you usually dont need EVERYONE to just AOE whore. and after progression was done i didnt change to combat for one second, i fucking hate that spec. outlaw is at least fun when you get insane RTBs, combat was never fun :P im not saying i'll willingly play outlaw in raids, but i'd much rather play that than combat any day, then again im the guy that raided as sub in vanilla because i hate combat so much so there's that.