[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Deleted]

Are DH really that bad?
Since we got this insane Selfhealing, but no mitigation pretty much?

Well, I wouldn't call it insane - we've got some selfhealing though. At least we're not in as bad of a place as monks atm.

[redfella]

Less selfheals than DK, lower healthpool than DK, lower mitigation than DK, lower DPS than DK, better mobility and 5-man dungeon utility than DK.

Shit needs tuning, utility can't cost this much dps/mitigation.

[madmossy]

Are DH really that bad?
Im Going to Tank with a Prot paladin in raids, Is the gap that big between those classes?
Since we got this insane Selfhealing, but no mitigation pretty much?

It's insane for solo play, allowing you to pretty easily solo most of the Elite mobs with little issue, in a higher content though like mythic/raids the 200-300k heal you get is minimal when your rocking 3-4 million health and get chucked by boss's for a million a pop.

[Munkky]

Ok finished the math. Yes I know that Fel Eruption is worse just by looking at it, but I like knowing.
You only need 4 Felblades per cast of Fel Eruption for it too be better. Which is feasible.
This also means that Fel Eruption needs a buff, because they can't nerf Felblade anymore as it is already a slightly better Shear

[redfella]

DPS-wise yes, but FE will never deal more damage than Felblade since it has the stun component. It just means it's a niche talent.

[Munkky]

All they have to do to make it viable in pve but not pvp is modify the double stun to be 3x. Problem solved.

[Melsiren]

Less selfheals than DK, lower healthpool than DK, lower mitigation than DK, lower DPS than DK, better mobility and 5-man dungeon utility than DK.

Shit needs tuning, utility can't cost this much dps/mitigation.

Honestly, I'd be fine with the lack of tuning if we got anything but dead fucking air from the Devs these days. I still remember during ToT, when GC was pushing out several tweets a day answering questions, and several blue posts. Now we're lucky if we can get something wowrelated from Celestalon a in a week. I just hope when the 9th roles around and DH of both specs are widely available we will finally get some answers about what the direction even is for DH.

[Noix]

Looks like they removed Darkness and Talent change Sig of Chains also today on the beta.. sorta odd

Edit:
Yup it did big change
Sigil of Chains - 106 Replace Fel Eruption
Fel Eruption - 102 Replace Gluttony

and of course Darkness was removed from Veng

[Cooper]

Removing Darkness would be a pretty big "Fuck you, Vengeance, you don't get anything cool." Especially if only Vengeance lost it.

[Noix]

Removing Darkness would be a pretty big "Fuck you, Vengeance, you don't get anything cool." Especially if only Vengeance lost it.

Yea only veng lost it atm.. but seems like friend of mine has it as veng so could be a bug.. i am sure we lost it tho .. kinda said its cool and good ability

[Munkky]

Darkness is still there, it is giving you empower wards though. And your rehashing what had been said for the past 15 hours.

[Noix]

damn!! sorry for not being here 15 hrs ago >.>

[Munkky]

All I'm saying is, scroll up. All of this has been discussed in both this forum and the DH Discord.

[Orloth]

I'm not sure why the difference matters though?

It means that instead of seeing a week's worth of work, we could only be seeing as little as a few hours worth of work. With less effort needed to change something, we'll see changes in smaller increments. Just speculating, as I don't know what their development path is or what kind of approval changes like this need, but from a purely technical viewpoint, they don't have to finish the thought before pushing the patch through like they did previously.

[zox2]

Honestly, I'd be fine with the lack of tuning if we got anything but dead fucking air from the Devs these days. I still remember during ToT, when GC was pushing out several tweets a day answering questions, and several blue posts. Now we're lucky if we can get something wowrelated from Celestalon a in a week. I just hope when the 9th roles around and DH of both specs are widely available we will finally get some answers about what the direction even is for DH.

I think they are trying to shuffle things to get more data on talents, if ppl still chose certain talents above others when shuffled around, that sort of thing... I'm expecting a lot of changes still, since we are the new class... They can't really add any new talents anymore (except for existing spells), but a lot of number tuning and shuffling are to be had, and they stated,, that they need/want more data, see if players figure out the class more

[Agilent]

Shit needs tuning, utility can't cost this much dps/mitigation.

I dont even think Demon Hunter utility as that great.... AoE ranged silence, in my opinion, is the only good utility they have....and thats not saying much. We have no AoE stun, we have a pretty crappy AoE grip that is really only useful for an interrupt (oh and is now a talent), and aoe fear, which again is only useful for an interrupt. We cant even get our single target stun unless we give up felblades. If they are balancing around that kinda crappy utility then i dont know what to say.

[Kaharon]

I dont even think Demon Hunter utility as that great.... AoE ranged silence, in my opinion, is the only good utility they have....and thats not saying much. We have no AoE stun, we have a pretty crappy AoE grip that is really only useful for an interrupt (oh and is now a talent), and aoe fear, which again is only useful for an interrupt. We cant even get our single target stun unless we give up felblades. If they are balancing around that kinda crappy utility then i dont know what to say.

I think they are trying to shuffle things to get more data on talents, if ppl still chose certain talents above others when shuffled around, that sort of thing... I'm expecting a lot of changes still, since we are the new class... They can't really add any new talents anymore (except for existing spells), but a lot of number tuning and shuffling are to be had, and they stated,, that they need/want more data, see if players figure out the class more

While possibly true I can't stop thinking about them nerfing us because of mythic+ dungeons and by doing so also gimping us hard in mythic raids, where most of those sigils are quite useless apart from maybe Krosus adds with aoe silence (tried it out, while silenced they don't do anything, can't be gripped though)

For example: I tried out Vengeance AND Guardian on the recent Ursoc heroic test on the 5th of August and while the DH felt really "fun to play" my healers were anything but happy with healing me, while my brewmaster co-tank actually had no problems as he told me himself. After about 8 tries I switched to Guardian and it felt like night and day, I could easily survive most of those hard hits as Guardian and sometimes even heal myself back up for 1+ million.

To me vengeance feels quite unpredictable right now and I can only hope Blizzard will find the balance between "cool dh tank has *so* much utility (not really)" and actually being good at mitigating and healing incoming damage. We should not suffer in dps/defense because we have our sigils and our mobility.

[Barrin]

As it stands, noone should skip Last Resort for progress -- and like said, once you don'ẗ need Last Resort you sure as hell won't be needing Soul Barrier either.

It totally depends on what you are progressing and wiping on. If there is a Boss who constantly makes an high amount of spike damage to your tanks and their healthpool can barely survive it, Soul Barrier is top notch. You have your DBM timer for the next spike, prepare with 5 Soul Fragments and get your 5xSF Soul Barrier right before the incoming Spike damage. Painbringer will give you an additional 15% damage reduction. Now compare this to Soul Cleave. If you use it before the spike damage, the healing will be pretty much wasted. You should be healed up before a crucial DBM-timed spikedamage ability by your healers anyway. If used after the spike damage you lose the potential 15% DR from Painbringer. Soul Barrier would be a huge upgrade in this kind of scenario, giving you a bigger healthpool to survive spikes and the 15% DR. Probably saving you way more wipes than Last Resort as long as the incoming damage of the encounter is predictable but still a pain in the ass to manage.

That's also a general problem of Soul Cleave. The heal and Painbringer buff don't synergize well. You simply can't use Soul Cleave before known incoming damage for the DR bonus part, unless you are not healed up for it in the first place, which is kind worst case scenario and probably a healer issue.

Maybe Soul Cleave could work as an HoT? same amount of healing, but over something like 3-4 seconds? Then you still have the option to use it 1 second before the spike damage comes to get your Painbringer DR and don't waste to much healing on it.

[redfella]

The way you describe encounters and tank damage does not exist in Legion any more, huge HUGE burst is gone and it's more of an attrition fight. The CDs that are left lean more towards returning from a mistake that put you at low hp, instead of the old "mitigate here or die" mentality.

I suspect tanks die when healers are too busy with raid healing or run dry, and if so, Last Resort will be king. Also, it's pretty much the only thing that helps you live a bit longer when you get stunned/etc.

[Barrin]

Yeah my example is a very theoretic. And this theory could be translated into different scenarios. Simply put, i wouldn't underrate Soul Barrier. The real amounts of wipes you will save between this two talents are really hard to determine. It depends on the encounter, whether a medium benefit every 30 seconds or a big one every 3 minutes will be stronger. But Soul Barrier gives you a very strong tool that can be used proactively to master specific difficulties, while last Resort won't help you if progress status gives you more than 1 wipeful scenario every 3 minutes. You can prepare for healing droughts, you can have scenarios, where healers are extremly busy every minute to heal up the raid, so you can always play actively to give more breathing room. If Soul Barrier used smart, you actively create breathing room on a constant basis, maybe that's the best description of it's benefits.

P.S.: If healers run dry, you might have saved some of their mana by having higher self absorption via SB in the first place. Don't get me wrong, Last Resort is awesome, but i think every encounter will have a different winner.