1. #8181
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    -snip-
    Well to be honest, you picked like one of the best melee atm to compare ret with from PvP/duels pov and it was admitted by blizzard that WW will be best mobility spec in the game so there is that too =).

    But yes you are right that it is unfair monk is in far better position than Ret on legion, but this is what means to be a pmost popular plaid class in game, blizzard feels that they do not have to put as much work in Ret

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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    So our primary stat pvp template is 85% and JV template is 60% damage and healing.
    Storm, unless i am mistaken pvp templates do not reduce damage of JV, just its healing. Some1 has to do the math, but with the FV nerf, isnt JV pulls out ahead of FV damage (counting HPs use, not a single spell usage vs single spell usage)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    @Nymrohd Im not sure if we are even right with saying that. I mean druids are above us in class popularity and they got really good attention in terms of balance and guardian. Hunters are ahead of us as well, but I cant say I like any of the specs current design so I cant really say they got more/better attention than ret.

    If what we are saying is actually true, druids would be in the same boat we are in terms of their dps specs and such, but thats not the case.
    Well i cant judge PvE wise, but PvP Boomy/feral are both superior to ret mobility, cc, dmg wise. Bm hunters are also superior to Ret Dmg/mobility wise, i didnt encounter many MM/Surv so i cant comment on them.
    Also droods are never in the same boat as us =) droods are actually run in top tier comps (both dps spec) unlike Rets and they are viable in RBGs :P cant compare top dog to an underdog ret =)

  2. #8182
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Announces an demon-fighting themed expansion infested with demons
    Removes all demon fighting tools from one of the two demon-fighting -oriented classes
    >scumbag bzzd <


    Can't help but applaud.
    This is what I still dont understand. Makes no sense to me. I mean we do turn demons to dust and we also have WoA which stuns demons, so we didnt completely lose out in that department, id actually say it made a minor improvement, but I still want Turn Evil or something as an ability, or exorcism.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2016-08-08 at 12:13 AM.

  3. #8183
    Epic! Ryuji's Avatar
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    I kinda like how Ret feels now PvE-wise since the Divine Steed baseline thing(can't speak for PvP since I haven't PvP'd since Season 2-4 in BC) but the only 3 things that bug me now are Execution Sentence, Consecration and Divine Hammer.

    Execution Sentence because it just *does not* feel good to use. It doesn't line up with anything now, it's throwing my wings off in HFC even still.

    Consecration because it's just...there. Might be neat for stacking a bunch of mobs together if they can all sit still on that spot but it has 0 synergy with every other paladin spell. Just feels off. It's nice to see it back for Ret in a sense but still feels eh.

    Divine Hammer because the cooldown on it feels too long to warrant enough HP building. Idunno just feels off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakpoth View Post
    I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.
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  4. #8184
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    Storm, unless i am mistaken pvp templates do not reduce damage of JV, just its healing. Some1 has to do the math, but with the FV nerf, isnt JV pulls out ahead of FV damage (counting HPs use, not a single spell usage vs single spell usage)

    - - - Updated - - -
    JV healing isn't nerfed in instanced pvp, If you deal "x" damage it heals for "x". I guess the damage is nerfed because it's not so ahead of TV.

    I feel my damage is higher using TV instead of JV.
    Last edited by Rogal Dorn; 2016-08-07 at 11:57 PM.

  5. #8185
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogal Dorn View Post
    JV healing isn't nerfed in instanced pvp, If you deal "x" damage it heals for "x". I guess the damage is nerfed because it's not so ahead of TV.

    I feel my damage is higher using TV instead of JV.
    Hm interesting >.< thx for pointing it out, just when i was reading PvP templates it said something like "JV's healing is decreased to 60%" but did not say anything about dmg nerf, so me being a naive soul i am, hoping JV dmg was not nerfed =(.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post

    Execution Sentence because it just *does not* feel good to use. It doesn't line up with anything now, it's throwing my wings off in HFC even still.
    Do you think reducing duration of the "falling down" phase to 2 seconds will increase ur enjoyment for ES from PvE? I know it would for me from PvP pov, hence less time for enemy to react to pop D-cd or dispell my ES

  6. #8186
    Quote Originally Posted by ruiizu View Post
    What do you get when a Paladin uses Turn Evil?
    Oh... OH! Hah, that's pretty funny.

  7. #8187
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    I kinda like how Ret feels now PvE-wise since the Divine Steed baseline thing(can't speak for PvP since I haven't PvP'd since Season 2-4 in BC) but the only 3 things that bug me now are Execution Sentence, Consecration and Divine Hammer.

    Execution Sentence because it just *does not* feel good to use. It doesn't line up with anything now, it's throwing my wings off in HFC even still.

    Consecration because it's just...there. Might be neat for stacking a bunch of mobs together if they can all sit still on that spot but it has 0 synergy with every other paladin spell. Just feels off. It's nice to see it back for Ret in a sense but still feels eh.

    Divine Hammer because the cooldown on it feels too long to warrant enough HP building. Idunno just feels off.
    You don't find yourself in situations where the mobs died too fast and you're still waiting on judgment to come off cooldown? That is what bothers me the most. Downtime on judgment.
    This could obviously be solved with judgment beeing a buff instead of the fantasy of beeing broken. Though i confess i would really like it if judgment simply buffed the next 2-3 finishers by X and stacked. It would be so much more fun to use that way.

    After that its definitly Execution sentence and consecration. ES is a pain to use and consecration is useless. I'm sure i've said this before but consecration needs to become a 1m CD burst AoE (wich we are severely lacking). ES i guess just needs a cooldown that matches with judgment, but i'd rather see it completely changed.

    Theres also no forgetting Word of glory and seal of light for beeing dead talents due to the HP cost (unless your healers are that desperate) and finally our beloved Equality of Holy wrath, for beeing useless unless you want to anger your tanks or healers.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2016-08-08 at 12:45 AM.

  8. #8188
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    -snip-
    I was just wondering, aren't you guys worried about spot in the progression roster as Ret? Since a new melee class is being introduced with better ST and AOE dmg + better mobility and a decent raid utility, on top of a lot of fights favoring range classes.

    As Bear pointed out in a different post, Ret has no niche in Legion >.<

  9. #8189
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    Ret has no niche in Legion >.<
    GBOM is pretty much our only niche.

    Which is... lackluster to say the least.

  10. #8190
    Epic! Ryuji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    Do you think reducing duration of the "falling down" phase to 2 seconds will increase ur enjoyment for ES from PvE? I know it would for me from PvP pov, hence less time for enemy to react to pop D-cd or dispell my ES
    Possibly, then again with my haste as is I have to fiddle with judgement a bit and I think that's what is throwing me off the most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    You don't find yourself in situations where the mobs died too fast and you're still waiting on judgment to come off cooldown? That is what bothers me the most. Downtime on judgment.
    This could obviously be solved with judgment being a buff instead of the fantasy of being broken. Though i confess i would really like it if judgment simply buffed the next 2-3 finishers by X and stacked. It would be so much more fun to use that way.

    After that its definitly Execution sentence and consecration. ES is a pain to use and consecration is useless. I'm sure i've said this before but consecration needs to become a 1m CD burst AoE (wich we are severely lacking). ES i guess just needs a cooldown that matches with judgment, but i'd rather see it completely changed.

    Theres also no forgetting Word of glory and seal of light for being dead talents due to the HP cost (unless your healers are that desperate) and finally our beloved Equality of Holy wrath, for being useless unless you want to anger your tanks or healers.
    I do actually find myself in those situations. Judgement feels weird in general currently but with enough haste it becomes a non-issue for management, still slightly annoying though.

    Honestly I feel ES would be better if it was a 1 minute CD again. Even if it has an HP cost.

    As far as Word of Nope and Seal of Blizzardpls, I don't think I'll ever pick either. WoG heals for next to nothing and I doubt it'll see much use across the expansion, though I would happily like to be proven wrong. Double pony's too valuable to pass up and it only costs a GCD or 2 if you do them back to back. Also the only on-demand fast sprint we have now since Speed of Light is now gone. So in the case of a Lei Shen heroic mechanic where you have to move quick or be thrown off the platform, Cavalier is pretty much 100% required for me in all situations.

    and regarding Holy Wrath, I will never under any circumstance pick that talent unless I am doing PvP(in which case I'd probably be better off on a Monk or Warrior it feels like so...yeah). The PvE aspects of it will never see any use compared to Crusade or DP unless there's some mechanic you'll be able to cheese with it down the line so you stack Rets to hurt themselves and then nuke down an add or someone MC'd or whichever. Regardless, just... no. I'm not gonna stand in fire to use an ability. I will however tryhard myself enough to where I do respectable DPS though. Ret's proving that to be challenging.
    Last edited by Ryuji; 2016-08-08 at 03:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakpoth View Post
    I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.
    Armory: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch.../dalaran/ryuji

    Song that's currently stuck in my head: pretty much anything from Dance With the Dead

  11. #8191
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    Possibly, then again with my haste as is I have to fiddle with judgement a bit and I think that's what is throwing me off the most.
    Personally I would find a game play of pure ST (if it would give higher numbers than FV st) more satisfying for example using ES/JV only. But in order for this to work, i think they have to lower cd on ES and lower "air" phase

  12. #8192
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    Storm, unless i am mistaken pvp templates do not reduce damage of JV, just its healing. Some1 has to do the math, but with the FV nerf, isnt JV pulls out ahead of FV damage (counting HPs use, not a single spell usage vs single spell usage)
    I was unattentive when I said it was 60/60% damage and healing indeed.

    The correct Ret PvP templates are as follows:

    Retribution
    Stat Template

    Primary: 85%
    Mastery: 25%
    Haste: 125%
    Versatility: 125%
    Critical Strike: 125%


    Spell Multipliers

    Execution Sentence deals 60% damage in PvP
    Templar's Verdict deals 70% damage in PvP
    Justicar's Vengeance heals for 60% of damage done

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    This is what I still dont understand. Makes no sense to me. I mean we do turn demons to dust and we also have WoA which stuns demons, so we didnt completely lose out in that department, id actually say it made a minor improvement, but I still want Turn Evil or something as an ability, or exorcism.
    Ofcurse you don't understand
    Noone can understand scumbag's train of thought, if there is one ever

  13. #8193
    Deleted
    @Storm
    Some people mentioned in the forums, that Blizzard made a mistake with JV's template, so it's damage has been nerfed aswell. =_="

    Overall it is sad.. everytime I thought "now I could play Ret without regretting it" there comes something new -.- Incredible how passive Blizzard is with changes -.-

  14. #8194
    Quote Originally Posted by Loewenherz View Post
    @Storm
    Some people mentioned in the forums, that Blizzard made a mistake with JV's template, so it's damage has been nerfed aswell. =_="

    Overall it is sad.. everytime I thought "now I could play Ret without regretting it" there comes something new -.- Incredible how passive Blizzard is with changes -.-
    well if it's a mistake then surely it will be fixed very soon!

    or late.

  15. #8195
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    or late.
    Or never... while mentioning it was intended and it was some kind of typo..just like they did with our overpowered Judgement cleave.

  16. #8196
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    I was just wondering, aren't you guys worried about spot in the progression roster as Ret? Since a new melee class is being introduced with better ST and AOE dmg + better mobility and a decent raid utility, on top of a lot of fights favoring range classes.

    As Bear pointed out in a different post, Ret has no niche in Legion >.<
    If the DPS charts that have been available hold any truth to them, we are currently not raid viable as Ret. That much is obvious. You need a very generous raid to put up with you. Not to mention that the new rotation is way more prone to mistakes than it used to be.

    So, yes, i am waiting for Simcraft's official numbers and Blizzards possible adjustments, but if what its seen is the case (aka Ret dead last) then yes, i will be changing main. Not really much of a choice. I do think Blzz won't let that happen as its the only DPS spec we got. Unless they think its ok for us to go heals intead(vanilla style).

    To be fair, the only niche that Ret has now is single target. If we are not near the top of the charts on that, i don't see a use for Ret outside the one bubble, but you can get a Holy to do that instead.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2016-08-08 at 01:58 PM.

  17. #8197
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    If the DPS charts that have been available hold any truth to them, we are currently not raid viable as Ret. That much is obvious. You need a very generous raid to put up with you. Not to mention that the new rotation is way more prone to mistakes than it used to be.

    So, yes, i am waiting for Simcraft's official numbers and Blizzards possible adjustments, but if what its seen is the case (aka Ret dead last) then yes, i will be changing main. Not really much of a choice. I do think Blzz won't let that happen as its the only DPS spec we got. Unless they think its ok for us to go heals intead(vanilla style).

    To be fair, the only niche that Ret has now is single target. If we are not near the top of the charts on that, i don't see a use for Ret outside the one bubble, but you can get a Holy to do that instead.
    See that makes me actually really sad. PvP wise, Ret was not designed to be top tier, but PvE wise, Ret had some good xpacs AOE wise and ST wise, and if legion Ret wont be viable for raids....as well as shit @ PvP, this is just makes me truly sad, seeing DPS Class i love, being left in the shadows =( in both aspects of the game PvE and PvP.

    Maybe Blizzard will give Rets some OP tier bonus sets like in WOD 3x Wings?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loewenherz View Post
    @Storm
    Some people mentioned in the forums, that Blizzard made a mistake with JV's template, so it's damage has been nerfed aswell. =_="

    Overall it is sad.. everytime I thought "now I could play Ret without regretting it" there comes something new -.- Incredible how passive Blizzard is with changes -.-
    So does it Mean JV will be buffed? If so, maybe for PvP it will be better going JV/ES build? use ES of CD and JV in between?

  18. #8198
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    well if it's a mistake then surely it will be fixed very soon!

    or late.
    depends on the impact.

    in our favor = instant fix ideally nerf on top
    not in our favor = meh who cares? next content is plenty early or maybe next addon. we´ll see...

  19. #8199
    Quote Originally Posted by CptKnusper View Post
    depends on the impact.

    in our favor = instant fix ideally nerf on top
    not in our favor = meh who cares? next content is plenty early or maybe next addon. we´ll see...
    So instead of becoming the Paragon of Sarcasm you decided to become the Embodiment of Cynicism?

  20. #8200
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    Well to be honest, you picked like one of the best melee atm to compare ret with from PvP/duels pov and it was admitted by blizzard that WW will be best mobility spec in the game so there is that too =).

    But yes you are right that it is unfair monk is in far better position than Ret on legion, but this is what means to be a pmost popular plaid class in game, blizzard feels that they do not have to put as much work in Ret
    To be clear Sneg, I don't care if Monk is better or worse as long as everyone is relatively competitive.

    The purpose of my post was to bring light to the clear miscommunication in Blizzards own development template. It's OK if they "changed" their mind, but we could definitely use some clarity into whether that is the case.

    They explicitly told us in a blue post (IIRC the theorycrafting thread) that the intent of the talent trees is to move away from themed rows and towards "choices". It's 100% clear that not all spec's follow this paradigm. I'd like to know why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    I was just wondering, aren't you guys worried about spot in the progression roster as Ret? Since a new melee class is being introduced with better ST and AOE dmg + better mobility and a decent raid utility, on top of a lot of fights favoring range classes.

    As Bear pointed out in a different post, Ret has no niche in Legion >.<
    It was already BORDERLINE impossible for me to find Mythic raiding guilds as a Ret in WoD and that was with 95%+ logs.

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