It's pretty dumb Calia doesn't give a shit about her former kingdom

[Gnarilex]

Didn't Worgens win gilneas battle?

Nope. They drove them back during the battle for the city and then used a captured bat to drop some of their explosives on the forsaken forces and tanks in order to buy the Gilneans enough time to evacuate onto the Night Elf ships. Then in Silverpine Forest the Gilnean Liberation Front fought them all the way back to the wall but ultimately surrendered when Sylvanas threatened to turn Lorna into a Forsaken if Crowley didn't cooperate. Then a black dragon came and hung out for awhile and now it's abandoned.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, I admit I haven't followed the lore too closely, but I always thought Arthas went full evil because he was controlled by Frostmourne and later on the Helm of Command. Which to me is hinted at when you kill him and it's basically said that he was fighting Nerz'hul all along or the Scourge would have ruled Azeroth a long time ago.

I truly feel, based on the knowledge I have, that Arthas has way more ground for a redemption story than Illidan does after BC.

Arthas killed Ner'zhul inside the helm and was in complete control for awhile. The sword and helm corrupted him but he was by no means under their control. He even cut out his heart to rid him of the last of his humanity.

TBC was just poorly written. It was supposed to be an expansion about the Burning Legion but turned into an assault on an anti-hero creating an army to battle the Burning Legion and multiple assaults on the same Blood Elf prince. I guess Kael'thas did eventually align with the Burning Legion, but overall that expansion was a mess and Blizzard has said they regret the decisions made then.

[Shibito]

How can she give a shit about something that doesn't even exist anymore?

Even if the Alliance would claim those places and purge the Forsaken out, Lordaeron is gone.

Most of its people is dead, many of them raised to undead, people that claimed the majority of those lands by following Sylvanas' leadership. The few living natives are under the Argent Crusade's protection. Last but not least, Calia was no rightful successor to the throne. Arthas was the rightful heir. Calia, politically speaking, is a worthless figure. She's no leader, she never was, never Terenas raised her with that in mind, she has no army, no political influence, no acknowledged respect by anyone.

I'll say it again: even if the Alliance would successfully claim the place, Lordaeron is no more. Calia has no use. They could just make an usage of the conquered lands and that's it (which is all to discover, considered the pitiful state of the Forsaken's claimed territories) there's no need of Calia to conquer Lordaeron anyway and no one in the Alliance would give her anything after the Alliance and not her did all the hard work.

Bluntly speaking, Calia is a worthless character seen as nothing but an utter plot device for people dreaming about the "Lordaeron's reclamation", simply because Calian's very existence should apparently motivate the Alliance in doing that (not because of a logical reason, simply because Calia popped out of nowhere) even though Calia herself is worthless in every sense.

Besides, I'm fairly positive JustRob is a massive troll and none of what we say to him matters.



Baine has quite a solid chance too. The Mak'gora would surely put some restrinctions in regards of the "tricks" someone could use (like poisons) and a warrior feels pretty much at home in such a situation. Sylvanas' scream has little usefulness against a warrior and while it can potentially break bones, Tauren are the toughest race of the game basically. Needless to say, physically speaking Baine outweighs Sylvanas by a gigantic margin, making him stronger and even faster probably.

Not according to allianceboys who claim anduin lothar would beat cairne bloodhoof.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Wait, I admit I haven't followed the lore too closely, but I always thought Arthas went full evil because he was controlled by Frostmourne and later on the Helm of Command. Which to me is hinted at when you kill him and it's basically said that he was fighting Nerz'hul all along or the Scourge would have ruled Azeroth a long time ago.

I truly feel, based on the knowledge I have, that Arthas has way more ground for a redemption story than Illidan does after BC.

OT: IIRC Lordaeron had a law that women couldn't rule, which is why Arthas became the heir. Which means, all this thread is pointless since even by law, she isn't the rightful owner. Not to mention the laughable "she's the heir, she should want to be Queen !' BS from OP.

"We may never know, I intend to live forever"

"I am the lich king, now and always"- right after he kills the spirit of Ner'zhul

He also felt remorse several times, but stomped it out afraid of becoming "weak"

[Shibito]

I like how all the pro-Forsaken people constantly ignore the fact that Terenas was absolutely beloved, as was their lineage until Arthas.

People acting like the Menethils were always hated.

Love how you are the only joke of a alliance fanboy that isnt a troll.

[Jngizu]

Arthas killed Ner'zhul inside the helm and was in complete control for awhile. The sword and helm corrupted him but he was by no means under their control. He even cut out his heart to rid him of the last of his humanity.

TBC was just poorly written. It was supposed to be an expansion about the Burning Legion but turned into an assault on an anti-hero creating an army to battle the Burning Legion and multiple assaults on the same Blood Elf prince. I guess Kael'thas did eventually align with the Burning Legion, but overall that expansion was a mess and Blizzard has said they regret the decisions made then.

Yeah I know he did, but when he dies, he clearly seems happy it's finally over, hinting that he didn't want to do those things at all. And I'm pretty sure Bolvar mentions that Arthas was not actively trying to rule Azeroth because if he did, there was no way they could win. Kinda like, he wanted them to beat him in a way so he didn't do everything he could to destroy the forces that opposed him or they would have had no chance.
Now I haven't read any of the books, so they may portray him as completely evil but I always felt like WotLK and Arthas was so good because the character was so complex, as opposed to most of Blizzard's current writing which is pretty black and white (excluding Legion as it's not out yet).

As for TBC, yeah the writing is a mess. Still pissed at how KT turned out .

[Gnarilex]

Yeah I know he did, but when he dies, he clearly seems happy it's finally over, hinting that he didn't want to do those things at all. And I'm pretty sure Bolvar mentions that Arthas was not actively trying to rule Azeroth because if he did, there was no way they could win. Kinda like, he wanted them to beat him in a way so he didn't do everything he could to destroy the forces that opposed him or they would have had no chance.
Now I haven't read any of the books, so they may portray him as completely evil but I always felt like WotLK and Arthas was so good because the character was so complex, as opposed to most of Blizzard's current writing which is pretty black and white (excluding Legion as it's not out yet).

As for TBC, yeah the writing is a mess. Still pissed at how KT turned out .

Yeah Arthas' writing in WotLK was a bit inconsistent. But he was definitely in control of all his actions. I feel like his reaction at the end of ICC was only because it made for a better cutscene. It makes him look like he wasn't in control when everything else points to the exact opposite. Little did he know he'd go off to the Shadowlands to his own personal hell of eternal anguish and torment. Otherwise he probably wouldn't have been so relieved.

[KrazyK923]

Love how you are the only joke of a alliance fanboy that isnt a troll.

I love how I'm an Alliance fanboy because I just dislike the Mary Sueness of Horde leaders. I dislike at least half of the Alliance leaders alone. Malfurion, Tyrande, the Council except Moira, and I find Genn boring.

As usual, the Horde fanboys never can recognize that most people who find them obnoxious do so because they come off like try hard 12 year olds, not because they have the biggest of the big hard ons for the Alliance.

But grats, you caught me. I slightly prefer them more than the Horde. I guess ignore me absolutely adoring Lor'themar, really wanting more for Baine, having been a huge fan of Nazgrim and Saurfang, and really wanting the Goblins to get an actual good leader like Sassy Hardwrench.

[Gnarilex]

I love how I'm an Alliance fanboy because I just dislike the Mary Sueness of Horde leaders. I dislike at least half of the Alliance leaders alone. Malfurion, Tyrande, the Council except Moira, and I find Genn boring.

As usual, the Horde fanboys never can recognize that most people who find them obnoxious do so because they come off like try hard 12 year olds, not because they have the biggest of the big hard ons for the Alliance.

But grats, you caught me. I slightly prefer them more than the Horde. I guess ignore me absolutely adoring Lor'themar, really wanting more for Baine, having been a huge fan of Nazgrim and Saurfang, and really wanting the Goblins to get an actual good leader like Sassy Hardwrench.

It was more what you said. No one is denying Terenas was a good king or saying the Menethil line has always been hated. That was all you. But when someone down the line becomes evil and tries to destroy life on Azeroth, that tends to outweigh anything good the previous members of the Menethil family did; whether or not the people in question are "pro forsaken" or not. It's like when after WWII you saw massive amounts of people changing their surnames away from Hitler and their first names if they happened to be named Adolph. No one wants to be associated with a genocidal maniac. And that's all Lordaeron will be remembered for.

[Rhlor]

There are. Most of the Argent Crusade are Lordaeron humans, and there are still Lordaeron humans living in pockets of land such as Solliden's farmstead.

the knights of the silver hand are a multiracial faction

[Zulkhan]

Hmm, don't recall that part actually. Tides of War I suppose?

War Crimes, actually. Only occasion where Sylvanas and Baine had a "physical" confrontation ever (or even verbal actually, I don't think they interacted at all in Tides of War).

Well, not very consistent, but then again it's not Blizzard's forte.

It's either inconsistency or a matter of context. Sylvanas planned to crush her body by throwing herself out of a cliff, after all. Apparently, mere gravity wouldn't do much, kinda logical if you also consider that High Elves are relatively "light". However, Tauren are definitely the strongest race of the game when it comes to raw muscles and Baine himself is no ordinary Tauren, the Bloodhoof chieftains' line is clearly something else, the father was regarded as "one of the most dangerous creatures alive" and is hinted the son inhereted Cairne's traits when it comes to physique and combat in at least a couple of occasions. He pretty much owns 3 Grimtotem Tauren at once back during the Mulgore chain, one of those being the very leader and the other 2 attempting to backstab him out of nowhere.

Still leaves phasing, which would require some sort of in-lore CD for a warrior to counter.

Depends how much handily Sylvanas is able to use such skill, particularly during the heated moments of melee combat where a giant minotaur is charging/chasing you. It's still an ability that needs activation, which makes it a possible vulnerability.

Well yeah, but from lore perspective it's fair to assume she used some kind of magical shields and whatnot. And while following that logic one could also argue that then it would be logical for Sylvanas to keep her distance, but that room was small as hell. Jaina at least could have blinked around.

Well, unlike Jaina, Sylvanas possesses some melee skills lorewise but the melee range is still not a Ranger's forte, unlike Arthas who has been a strict melee fighter his whole life. You can assume she tried to keep a certain distance until she ran out of tricks and Arthas forced her to a melee confrontation when Sylvanas's health bar was dangerously low (symbolizing that she couldn't drag the fight any longer I guess, much like for Jaina, as "health bars" aren't really a thing lorewise). In fact, the moment we arrive she hastily gains that distance and shoot a paralyzing arrow at Arthas to buy herself the time to escape.

There are undetectable poisons on Earth. With all kinds of beasts and strange plants with funny properties on Azeroth, Outland and Draenor, I'd say they have a fair share of these. She can always claim it's just her arrows being special or her Dark Ranger powers.

It's then a matter if you're able to cook up a perfectly undetectable poison (even to a master's eye) still capable to cause either massive damage or considerable incapacitation to a Tauren. To our knowledge, the Grimtotem are quite skilled too when it comes to concoct poisons (in fact, Tauren in general seems to have quite a thing for herbalism but the Grimtotem are those that love to play dirty about it) and came up with something indeed capable to utterly paralyze a Tauren of the size of Cairne after a few seconds, by simply enduring a scratch. Still, the poison was rather visible for anyone who would have cared to check (like Eitrigg did after the end of the duel).

Yeah, but then there's all that size and weight being a drag in terms of speed.

The size is a drag in regards of the agility, but the speed boost from such an amount of strength coupled with a greatly build physique is surely quite impressive. Tauren are definitely better built than races like Ogre or Draenei, especially lorewise where they're supposed to be remarkably tall (the in-game depiction was lowered down merely to make them fit through doors). By all means, a charging Tauren is pretty much a truck. Hooves also grant wonderful traction.

Even if he has speed to match or surpass her, how would he fare in sharp turns? With Sylvanas' agility she could jump around and I don't see a Tauren being agile enough to keep up.

He wouldn't barely match her agility, but outmanuver a Tauren of that size with a totem or even one of their huge spears in hand look quite troublesome (Baine's signature weapon is a huge 2-handed mace, if I recall correctly). He would need very brief turns to ensure Sylvanas never gets out of his sight. Moreover, a Mak'gora issued for the Warchief position would most likely occurr within the Orgrimmar arena which is plain as you could get. No places to hide behind, no cliffs or mere bumps to get even the slighter upper ground and ensure a "profitable" jump. It's not like you can jump over a 12 feet tall creature from plain ground.

True, the weapon has some great defensive potential (especially against other melee weapons), but Sylvanas bragged about being able to shoot a flying bird in the eye from some distance.

And I don't doubt that, but those things are massive and yet handled like actual weapons in a Tauren's hand. Covering most of head, chest and belly while observing where Sylvanas is aiming is probably not a big deal, while charging at considerable speed at the same time. She could shoot at some other spot which would surely slow Baine down, but hardly stop him. I guess there's also a difference between shooting against a far away target minding its own businesses (as much of an extraordinary example of archery skill it can be) and one quickly charging at you.

The starting distance plays some role of course.

That's an interesting point actually. I don't think there was ever a Mak'gora between a melee and ranged fighter, so I wonder how such issue would be handled. Too much distance would favor Sylvanas too much, but too little would favor Baine as much. I guess a middle ground would be chosen to grant both a chance to make use of their respective advantages at the start of the fight.

But Elves are quick on the draw and with Tauren mass again coming in play, however quick they are I don't see them being too good on the acceleration front.

When it comes to close distances up Tauren are definitely the best warriors, they can charge in quite a more literal sense than warriors of other races can actually do. Of course, the disadvantage is lesser mobility on the close distance, which could help Sylvanas to dodge a critical blow.

And I know she needs to will it to do so, but I'm not aware of any significant delay between her willing it and it happening, so being able to use it in time with Baine's swings sounds possible.

It may not a matter of delay between willing it and doing it but just one of mere concentration. While we have zero clues about that, Sylvanas doesn't seem to resort quite often to such trick and indeed we pretty much have only the awareness that she can do it, without any example of when she actually did it. It may not be necessarily easy activate it while focused in dodging or parrying blows, or properly react at a sudden and quick blow. It wouldn't be surprising if in such situations attempts a dodge could more profitable than attempts a phasing.

Or just phase, run through Baine, stab him in the back.

That would be a cool and probably effective move but not necessarily a guaranteed victory. Everyone (especially in the Horde) knows what Sylvanas is (her Banshee Queen title is paraded around quite a lot) and the moment she runs through getting what she aims to do wouldn't be hard to predict. The moment she does that, manages to "get physical" again and attempts to stab, Baine could have enough time to quickly turn around and deliver a blow at the same time (a particularly devastating one moreover, given the wide arc the attack would have) on a Sylvanas briefly letting her guard off in the attempt to deliver the killing blow. If she manages to hit him first, Baine's heart would bleed dry. If he does, Sylvanas' head would probably be chopped out of her neck. Alternatively, Sylvanas gives up the try and does her best to dodge the blow.

All of this said, Sylvanas couldn't realistically attempt such a thing because she could choose only one weapon. And a bow would be the obvious weapon of choice.

Overall, to me it seems quite the "one hit one kill, one miss one death" type of duel. It would end fast either way and it wouldn't probably be anything interesting to watch.

Besides, I wasn't sure about going on with this. Then I remembered this thread is a borderline troll bait and concluded that some off-topic deviation would have been a bless.

This has nothing to do with Calia

No one gives a genuine shit about Calia. No. One.

The only reason she has been mentioned all these years is because of her lineage. She's the most headcanoned plot device in WoW history for all the people having a boner on the Lordaeron-Alliance axis every morning.

Not according to allianceboys who claim anduin lothar would beat cairne bloodhoof.

Oh, that one. Quite a fun thread, indeed.

Yeah I know he did, but when he dies, he clearly seems happy it's finally over, hinting that he didn't want to do those things at all.

That was clearly because Arthas' own soul, imprisoned within Frostmourne like all others, rejoined the body in his final moments. It looks like the mosts obvious explanation and the only one that makes sense.

And I'm pretty sure Bolvar mentions that Arthas was not actively trying to rule Azeroth because if he did, there was no way they could win.

It was Uther. And in the end the reason of this was clear: Arthas indeed wanted to rule Azeroth, but he was fixated in getting people following his own footsteps, to corrupt them like Ner'zhul did with him and use them against their own peoples as much as happened to him. He held the Scourge back because he wanted to slay and raise "Azeroth's champions" as his own servants and "enjoy the irony".

In a way, Arthas is kind of a complex character, but not because of tragedy or misunderstanding of his actions/motives, he was simply victim of his obsessions and neurosis, born from the remnants of his personality now devoided of all humanity.

Little did he know he'd go off to the Shadowlands to his own personal hell of eternal anguish and torment. Otherwise he probably wouldn't have been so relieved.

Well, he was relieved that everything was over (again, it was probably his soul to speak, the one that "came back" after years of imprisonment within the cursed blade) but he later says "I see...only darkness...before...me..."

Don't know you, but that sounded as quite an hint to me that things weren't going to be great in his afterlife.

[Ironhorn]

> Route the Forsaken from Lordaeron
> Oversee the purification of the plaguelands until it's completed
> Restore Hillsbrad and possibly Southshore

In lore, Stratholme has been retaken by the Argent Crusade already. More than enough potential to restore Lordaeron.

Ofcourse it will never happen because Blizzard loves Sylvanas too much

The Alliance cannot field an army big enough to route the Forsaken they tried and failed in Cata. http://wow.gamepedia.com/Orders_from_High_Command

[Traveler Voltin]

Humans are sad and funny creatures

[yetgdhfgh]

Humans are sad and funny creatures

Pride is the worst sin of all and OP seems to want to sacrifice not only tens of thousands of Ally troops but perhaps the whole of Azeroth just to take back some rubble in a plague infested land just so a obscure princess can sit on a blood stained throne!

So sad

[FelPlague]

"We may never know, I intend to live forever"

"I am the lich king, now and always"- right after he kills the spirit of Ner'zhul

He also felt remorse several times, but stomped it out afraid of becoming "weak"

we also now know that he never got rid of nerzhul, just got him out of the seat of charge, but nerzhul was there the whole time, slowly guiding him, and eventually taking over once the helm was on, with arthas able to take hold here and there, so arthas was a good guy up until he whent insane in northrend, once he killed malganis, then, it when he was no longer arthas, and he was a new man, a evil one, and once the helm was put on, arthas was gone, nothing but a mindless husk

[Gnarilex]

Well, he was relieved that everything was over (again, it was probably his soul to speak, the one that "came back" after years of imprisonment within the cursed blade) but he later says "I see...only darkness...before...me..."

True. I never really saw it like that. His soul (or at least part of it) very well could have been trapped inside frostmourne when he "died" during the whole heart thing. Although up until Sally Whitemane's resurrection I assumed his darkness was just that, a big void of darkness. Like what Sylvanas experienced when she flung herself from the Frozen Throne onto the saronite spikes below.

[JustRob]

What exactly is your theory of her "responsibility"? What is it she's meant to be responsible for? The fall of her kingdom? Did she not hug Arthas enough? Should she have been in the throne room and just take the death knight down with all the martial prowess she could martial as... a royal lady/debutante?

Is she "responsible" for personally leading a military campaign to reconquer the place from the Horde and the Forsaken? Says who? What princess handbook is that in? Does she have an affirmative duty to get people from kingdoms other than her own to do this for her? Again, says who?

Is your main complaint here that she isn't being written as a straight ripoff of Daenarys Targaryen?

She's responsible for the remainder of her people who still live and fight off the undead every day. Her trying to cast away her family name and responsibilities is an act of pure selfishness.

It's pretty dumb they brought her back in the first place. Completely irrelevant character. Useless just like her overall storyline

If they give her a dumb story like this, agreed.

The Alliance cannot field an army big enough to route the Forsaken they tried and failed in Cata. http://wow.gamepedia.com/Orders_from_High_Command

I'm a little confused as to what happened here. I flipped through the remainder of the quests, and it doesn't mention much of what happened to the Alliance armada that was supposed to be en route.

But we're forgetting the Alliance also has airships. A three fold attack by land, sea, and air might just be enough to catch the Forsaken off guard.

[Shibito]

This subforum is the Horde (Forsaken in particular) circlejerk, anything that makes Sylvanas or the Forsaken look bad is ignored or twisted to make them guilty of no wrongdoing

And this is coming from someone that plays Horde

Rich coming from someone who plays horde only to be a belf female.

- - - Updated - - -

I love how I'm an Alliance fanboy because I just dislike the Mary Sueness of Horde leaders. I dislike at least half of the Alliance leaders alone. Malfurion, Tyrande, the Council except Moira, and I find Genn boring.

As usual, the Horde fanboys never can recognize that most people who find them obnoxious do so because they come off like try hard 12 year olds, not because they have the biggest of the big hard ons for the Alliance.

But grats, you caught me. I slightly prefer them more than the Horde. I guess ignore me absolutely adoring Lor'themar, really wanting more for Baine, having been a huge fan of Nazgrim and Saurfang, and really wanting the Goblins to get an actual good leader like Sassy Hardwrench.

Funny how you dislike Mary sueness but claim the star wars movie a all great Rey ruined that movie with her mary sueness.

[Mehrunes]

It's either inconsistency or a matter of context. Sylvanas planned to crush her body by throwing herself out of a cliff, after all. Apparently, mere gravity wouldn't do much, kinda logical if you also consider that High Elves are relatively "light". However, Tauren are definitely the strongest race of the game when it comes to raw muscles and Baine himself is no ordinary Tauren, the Bloodhoof chieftains' line is clearly something else, the father was regarded as "one of the most dangerous creatures alive" and is hinted the son inhereted Cairne's traits when it comes to physique and combat in at least a couple of occasions. He pretty much owns 3 Grimtotem Tauren at once back during the Mulgore chain, one of those being the very leader and the other 2 attempting to backstab him out of nowhere.

Ehh, I kinda doubt any playable race can reach the force that affects the body when it decelerates in milliseconds after falling in terminal velocity.

Depends how much handily Sylvanas is able to use such skill, particularly during the heated moments of melee combat where a giant minotaur is charging/chasing you. It's still an ability that needs activation, which makes it a possible vulnerability.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's an I-win button, but if used wisely, it could either offer some defense against Baine's strength or create an opening.

Well, unlike Jaina, Sylvanas possesses some melee skills lorewise but the melee range is still not a Ranger's forte, unlike Arthas who has been a strict melee fighter his whole life. You can assume she tried to keep a certain distance until she ran out of tricks and Arthas forced her to a melee confrontation when Sylvanas's health bar was dangerously low (symbolizing that she couldn't drag the fight any longer I guess, much like for Jaina, as "health bars" aren't really a thing lorewise). In fact, the moment we arrive she hastily gains that distance and shoot a paralyzing arrow at Arthas to buy herself the time to escape.

As I said, not a lot of space for her to keep the distance forever, and as you said, she obviously did get hit. By Arthas and his super duper powerful weapon. And still survived. That was the main point, an argument in favor of her still being durable enough to last some time in melee combat even against powerful enemies. Of course Arthas would win in the end since he's the Lich King, but strong warriors like Saurfang Jr. were facerolled by him.

It's then a matter if you're able to cook up a perfectly undetectable poison (even to a master's eye) still capable to cause either massive damage or considerable incapacitation to a Tauren. To our knowledge, the Grimtotem are quite skilled too when it comes to concoct poisons (in fact, Tauren in general seems to have quite a thing for herbalism but the Grimtotem are those that love to play dirty about it) and came up with something indeed capable to utterly paralyze a Tauren of the size of Cairne after a few seconds, by simply enduring a scratch. Still, the poison was rather visible for anyone who would have cared to check (like Eitrigg did after the end of the duel).

They are still lacking technology to detect many things. Of course, there's the possibility that magic compensates for that, but to what degree would be hard to say. And I'd say it's likely Sylvanas doesn't go around sharing Dark Ranger secrets, so she could convincingly bullshit her way into "oh, it may look like poison but it's actually special type of cursed arrow". Then again she can simply resort to cursed arrows and be done with it.

When it comes to close distances up Tauren are definitely the best warriors, they can charge in quite a more literal sense than warriors of other races can actually do. Of course, the disadvantage is lesser mobility on the close distance, which could help Sylvanas to dodge a critical blow.

He wouldn't barely match her agility, but outmanuver a Tauren of that size with a totem or even one of their huge spears in hand look quite troublesome (Baine's signature weapon is a huge 2-handed mace, if I recall correctly). He would need very brief turns to ensure Sylvanas never gets out of his sight. Moreover, a Mak'gora issued for the Warchief position would most likely occurr within the Orgrimmar arena which is plain as you could get. No places to hide behind, no cliffs or mere bumps to get even the slighter upper ground and ensure a "profitable" jump. It's not like you can jump over a 12 feet tall creature from plain ground.

In light of this, the way I see it, if the fight is not finished in one hit by either of them, it would devolve into Dark Souls boss battle type of deal, with Sylvanas rolling around looking for an opening, while Baine does slower, but deadly swings.

And I don't doubt that, but those things are massive and yet handled like actual weapons in a Tauren's hand. Covering most of head, chest and belly while observing where Sylvanas is aiming is probably not a big deal, while charging at considerable speed at the same time. She could shoot at some other spot which would surely slow Baine down, but hardly stop him. I guess there's also a difference between shooting against a far away target minding its own businesses (as much of an extraordinary example of archery skill it can be) and one quickly charging at you.

Target quickly charging at you only eats the arrow faster. Sylvanas shoots three arrows in less than 5 seconds at the end of Legion cinematic, in different directions. Shooting them all in one direction would be even faster. And as seen in the fight against the Infernal, they do have some kind of an area explosion effect. Tauren may be durable, but they are not as durable as Infernals since they are pretty much walking rocks, and these arrows still had enough of an effect on that.

That's an interesting point actually. I don't think there was ever a Mak'gora between a melee and ranged fighter, so I wonder how such issue would be handled. Too much distance would favor Sylvanas too much, but too little would favor Baine as much. I guess a middle ground would be chosen to grant both a chance to make use of their respective advantages at the start of the fight.

Not sure either. Obviously Sylvanas would try to stand on the edge of the arena at the start, but can she tell Baine to stay away? Do they have some starting positions? Or starting areas, like they get their own half of the arena at the start and can't cross to the other side before the fighting begins?

That would be a cool and probably effective move but not necessarily a guaranteed victory. Everyone (especially in the Horde) knows what Sylvanas is (her Banshee Queen title is paraded around quite a lot) and the moment she runs through getting what she aims to do wouldn't be hard to predict. The moment she does that, manages to "get physical" again and attempts to stab, Baine could have enough time to quickly turn around and deliver a blow at the same time (a particularly devastating one moreover, given the wide arc the attack would have) on a Sylvanas briefly letting her guard off in the attempt to deliver the killing blow. If she manages to hit him first, Baine's heart would bleed dry. If he does, Sylvanas' head would probably be chopped out of her neck. Alternatively, Sylvanas gives up the try and does her best to dodge the blow.

Well, Sylvanas is kind of unique in terms of banshiness, but I suppose you're right that it would be expected nonetheless. Though I wonder what would happen if she simply materialized while still inside Baine Oo Or if she can just posses him (though I'm not sure how that would fly with the rules of Mak'gora).

All of this said, Sylvanas couldn't realistically attempt such a thing because she could choose only one weapon. And a bow would be the obvious weapon of choice.

Her bow has some long spikes at the front. Curved ones, so may be hard to stab something with them, but who knows, the curve could prove better when swinging it backwards like she'd have to in this position. She also cut off a rope with the end of her bow, though I am not sure how exactly. Couldn't get a good look at that part of it in the cinematic. And there's always going full Legolas and just stabbing him with the arrow, but that was kinda silly.

But we're forgetting the Alliance also has airships. A three fold attack by land, sea, and air might just be enough to catch the Forsaken off guard.

So does the Horde. And Lordaeron is an island with no significant Alliance presence left, so there's barely any attack by land going on. There are very few sea landing spots available too, with most of them being in Gilneas which is divided from the rest of the place by a giant gate. Even if they did not repair it to retrofit it for their defenses, it's a giant choke point.

[Deleted]

In practice yes, but legally the lands still belong to the Menethil line. Calia being alive means she is the rightful owner.

Dead wrong. All the lands had private owners, Calia was just the heir of the crown. Considering that the kingdom is gone, she is legally a nobody.

[Traveler Voltin]

She's responsible for the remainder of her people who still live and fight off the undead every day. Her trying to cast away her family name and responsibilities is an act of pure selfishness.



If they give her a dumb story like this, agreed.



I'm a little confused as to what happened here. I flipped through the remainder of the quests, and it doesn't mention much of what happened to the Alliance armada that was supposed to be en route.

But we're forgetting the Alliance also has airships. A three fold attack by land, sea, and air might just be enough to catch the Forsaken off guard.

A force that size would be spotted