I don't get why people think Maiev's a bitch but Illidan is not

[Cooper]

Assuming that the Night Elves have no laws because they're fictional is illogical. You're basically making the leap from, we haven't been shown their laws, to, their laws don't exist.

Fine though, we can play by your rules. So, Elune is the law, plain and simple. If that's the case, then you're still wrong. Tyrande is a priestess of Elune, she draws her powers from Elune. If Elune didn't want Illidan free, if Elune was siding with that random watcher that disagreed with Tyrande, then wouldn't Elune have simply stripped Tyrande of her powers? Why give power to a servant that is disobeying you?

I would even argue that it's logical that Elune had forgiven Illidan of his crimes. He had a part to play in the saving of Azeroth. The war against the Legion would have been lost if Tyrande had not freed him. Seems to me that Elune is a big picture sort of person, and being a nigh all powerful all seeing Goddess, she had the foresight to understand that releasing Illidan was necessary.

That watcher was going against the will of Elune, therefore death. Seems simple to me.

If Elune wanted Illidan freed, why wouldn't she have just told the Watchers so? Remember, not only does the Keeper of the Grove say "This place is forbidden, even to one such as you," (so Tyrande was expressly forbidden from even being there, and it is quite clear there are NO contingencies in place for Tyrande to pardon Illidan), but the Keeper of the Grove is, you know, directly related to Elune through Cenarius.

There is zero information provided in the story that supports the idea that Tyrande had the authority to release Illidan and the Watchers were just being willfully disobedient down to the last half-stag-man.

[Vanyali]

That's like saying you're going to drop a nuke on a country to kill one dude. It's kind of overkill regardless of how evil he is.

I think you should read up on the lich king a little bit.

[Rhlor]

"Yeah Maiev is a bitch alright, for trying to catch a mentally unstable person that has almost destroyed the world on mutiple occasions and slaughtered thousands without acomplishing anything, none of them who died by the hands of the Illdari is ever coming back, but we're still going to whine about how Grommash was such a bad guy even though he was manipulated by someone who could predict the future."


Maiev is maybe a bit insane, but I can't help feel that it becomes a bit fanboyish when people call Maiev a villain instead of the one she's hunting.

illidan trying to save the universe and Maiev helped avoid that

[Auxora]

SPOILERS AHEAD:

The whole recent Illidan book re-visited Maiev and Illidan, and the short-version is that while Illidan back in BC was portrayed as a bad guy, the Alliance/Horde and Maiev were all idiots for taking out the one being/group capable of actually putting up a fight against the Legion (and maybe the Naaru, but they have always been the wildcard). I think the term b*tch is a bit strong, I'd say she was in the wrong for being far too single-minded about recapturing Illidan at all costs while ignoring the real threat. The real place in the book where she seemed in the wrong was in her fight against Vandar (who it sounds like we'll see again at some point) where he pleaded with her over and over that he and the DH did not want to fight her and that the Legion was the real enemy, and she completely and stubbornly refused to believe that was true. Even when he would simply dodge her attacks and not attack back, she still insisted on attacking him.

The actions against Illidan made me think of some of the bio-engineering debacles of the 1960's and 1970's, where cities or states would think they are doing good by introducing a new species of an animal in an area to control a different animal viewed as a pest, only to find out that it made the problem worse because the new species had no predator and grew out of control. Not a perfect analogy, but to me that was Maiev and the Alliance/Horde vs. Illidan in BC. Or maybe a better analogy, radiation treatments of cancer patients in the 60's and 70's, when they would use such overly strong radiation that they'd kill the cancer, but also kill the patient many times as well.

Illidan isn't a perfect guy either. He's a bit like the WW2 and prior Soviet leaders that would sacrifice millions of lives for the big picture. Keeping in mind that Illidan has seen the archives of the Legion himself and has seen countless worlds wiped out by the Legion, and he knows Azeroth will be next it kind of puts perspective on his actions. In that view sacrificing a relative few to save the population of an entire world (a really other worlds as well) is a trade that has to be made. Maybe if there were a few small things in his storyline, like if he showed a bit more regret for the loss of DH or Ashtongue lives, or if he was more sincere with Akama about returning the Black Temple sooner it would paint him in slightly different light. Instead he's more like a military captain, all business and driving forward at all costs to his goal.

[OrcsRLame]

If Elune wanted Illidan freed, why wouldn't she have just told the Watchers so? Remember, not only does the Keeper of the Grove say "This place is forbidden, even to one such as you," (so Tyrande was expressly forbidden from even being there, and it is quite clear there are NO contingencies in place for Tyrande to pardon Illidan), but the Keeper of the Grove is, you know, directly related to Elune through Cenarius.

There is zero information provided in the story that supports the idea that Tyrande had the authority to release Illidan and the Watchers were just being willfully disobedient down to the last half-stag-man.

Where do you get the idea that Elune communicates with anyone other than Tyrande? I've never seen any evidence that that's the case.

Furthermore, there's a perfectly good reason why Elune would not tell the watchers shit. She wanted Tyrande to kill them, for Maiev the pursue Illidan, and ultimately for the player characters to kill Illidan. Assuming that Elune can see the future, (or she has some kind of foresight that is close enough to seeing the future) it makes sense to guide onto a path that results in the Legion being defeated. Like I said, Elune seems rather big picture to me. Arguably not very moral, but big picture nonetheless.

[Sluvs]

If Elune wanted Illidan freed, why wouldn't she have just told the Watchers so? Remember, not only does the Keeper of the Grove say "This place is forbidden, even to one such as you," (so Tyrande was expressly forbidden from even being there, and it is quite clear there are NO contingencies in place for Tyrande to pardon Illidan), but the Keeper of the Grove is, you know, directly related to Elune through Cenarius.

There is zero information provided in the story that supports the idea that Tyrande had the authority to release Illidan and the Watchers were just being willfully disobedient down to the last half-stag-man.

Cenarius manifestation was dead at that time. Also, are you playing connect the dots? Because you sure made a lot of connection based on one RANDOM keeper of the grove. Also we have evidence, straight out of wiki:

To this end, Malfurion Stormrage requested that Maiev Shadowsong form the Watchers, an elite group of guardians dedicated to guarding Illidan and other imprisoned criminals. Initially, this group was picked from among the Sisters of Elune. There were also some wildkin aiding the night elven guards. Maiev was named warden (a rank to which a select few others were promoted, but she herself selected some to share the title) and would answer only to the official head of government.

[FelPlague]

Okay SO I read this whole thread and for like 4 pages i've been dying for someone to say this.... Also I understand Malfurian has authority.... BUT......

Tyrande is not president of the US...... She's more like a Queen Pope... Do people not get this... Not only is she in charge of the NE Military, She's also the High Priestess of Elune... right.... SO she is more comparable to the GodKing of Rome when it and its territory was ruled by the Catholic church after the ceasorship fell apart... Like come on....

HOW CAN THE WARDENS SAY NO TO HER? "Only my Goddess can tell me what to do." Damn Straight... And We know canon lore Elune is very much real, and something else, of the Light, probably even a most high Naaru or something..... Even the druids submit to Elune...

AND we also know that Tyrande can communicate with Elune.... Why didn't Elune say oh hey stop that......

Well IF you have read the Illidan book and played beta...****SPOLIERS**** Naaru point out that Illidan will become a major champion of the Army of Light that will take on the burning legion and even the shadow lords..... SO Elune probably knows whats going on here.... way back then.....

ALSO literally this conversation perfectly reflects what Illidan has sacrificed.... He has had to make these heavy burdensome damning choices, both damning to himself and others....

SO let me ask all you guys something... IF you could choose: have killed (you dont even have to do it) 10 innocent people who are going to die from cancer anyways & in doing so cure cancer / or not cure cancer and just lets try and figure it out while people keep dying to it.....

Most would go yeah have the 10 people killed, they are going to die from it anyway, and their deaths will bring healing to thousands.... Well, who is going to be the asshole to pull the trigger...... That's Illidan.... and shadowsong is all like murder is wrong no matter what, life in jail for illidan!

Now he is not perfect, He's done bad things, but literally all life is going to be wiped out by the legion... SO he has chosen to become the jerk to pull the trigger. He believes he has a right to make this choice because he is one of the only ones with the vision to do so.
This causes Illidan to make many mistakes because of his hubris, his pride.... But who else can he trust... Honestly, compared to most mortals, illidan is brilliant....

I think thats why the Naaru like him..... They look at him, and go huh, look at this guy who sees the big picture of good v evil / light v dark / life v death, and he gives up everything more than just a 1 time life giving event, he gives up good / light and life for himself to preserve it for others and take out evil /dark/ death etc etc....

He may be crazy, but who wouldnt be.... and its literally gray... difficult for writers and fans to figure out fully.... and we are omniscient observers, similar to the naaru, so no wonder a lot of people like illidan.

Illidan has done bad things to others and mostly himself, driven to near madness, willingly, and still after what 11k years still has a heart to care enough about Azeroth to do those things because others lack the heart, or vision, or power, or courage to do it themselves. ANd honestly, Illidan acts on the Logic of defeating the legion and uses emotion to power that.

Shadowsong is just kind of a bitch...... Her emotions power her sense of right and wrong.....

wow, good job man, we need you on these forums more often man!

[Rhlor]

I use this argument way to much but the meaning still stands

Guess killing 6 million jews was alright (My heart goes out to all who died.), because according to some people, the ends doesen't justify the means, well guess what, Axis still lost, and as did the Illidari. While the Illidari didn't commit a genocide at such a massive scale, there was most certainly genocides happening all over outland while they were in power. They both lost and they still commited horrible crimes which their delusional minds thought would help them win their wars.

Illidari whether committed genocide, killing hundreds of millions of demons in natheraza

[Candy Cough]

illidan trying to save the universe and Maiev helped avoid that

"Save the Universe"

[Enthralled]

Cenarius manifestation was dead at that time. Also, are you playing connect the dots? Because you sure made a lot of connection based on one RANDOM keeper of the grove. Also we have evidence, straight out of wiki:

To this end, Malfurion Stormrage requested that Maiev Shadowsong form the Watchers, an elite group of guardians dedicated to guarding Illidan and other imprisoned criminals. Initially, this group was picked from among the Sisters of Elune. There were also some wildkin aiding the night elven guards. Maiev was named warden (a rank to which a select few others were promoted, but she herself selected some to share the title) and would answer only to the official head of government.

You've posted that quote once already, can you post the link please? Thanks.

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Where do you get the idea that Elune communicates with anyone other than Tyrande? I've never seen any evidence that that's the case.

While Tyrande is Elune's Chosen, it's not like she has exclusive rights. There was even a quest in vanilla WoW where the player character communicated with Elune.

[bloodmoth13]

"Yeah Maiev is a bitch alright, for trying to catch a mentally unstable person that has almost destroyed the world on mutiple occasions and slaughtered thousands without acomplishing anything, none of them who died by the hands of the Illdari is ever coming back, but we're still going to whine about how Grommash was such a bad guy even though he was manipulated by someone who could predict the future."


Maiev is maybe a bit insane, but I can't help feel that it becomes a bit fanboyish when people call Maiev a villain instead of the one she's hunting.

I think the opposite, i think shes entirely sane.

Her bitchiest moment was probably lying about tyrandes death in order to chase illidan, this put her in malfs badbooks.

Her attitude is callous, unkind and unloving, that equates to 'bitchy' in many ways, but i dont consider it a mark against her character or that it makes her unlikable, i much prefer her as a callous antihero (anti-villain?) than a super nice to everyone type of character that thrall and malf have become.

I wouldnt call her a villain, but she is illidans antagonist, and illidan in warcraft III was a protagonist in many chapters, this is just a problem with people confusing antagonist with villain and protagonist with hero.

I actually really like her as a character, she seems much more realistic than many others.

[Deleted]

I think the opposite, i think shes entirely sane.

Her bitchiest moment was probably lying about tyrandes death in order to chase illidan, this put her in malfs badbooks.

Her attitude is callous, unkind and unloving, that equates to 'bitchy' in many ways, but i dont consider it a mark against her character or that it makes her unlikable, i much prefer her as a callous antihero (anti-villain?) than a super nice to everyone type of character that thrall and malf have become.

I wouldnt call her a villain, but she is illidans antagonist, and illidan in warcraft III was a protagonist in many chapters, this is just a problem with people confusing antagonist with villain and protagonist with hero.

I actually really like her as a character, she seems much more realistic than many others.

I agree she is very realistic.

She, however, is the kind of lady i would avoid talking to at a nightclub.

I cant for one moment imagine her being pleseant company.

[OrcsRLame]

I think the opposite, i think shes entirely sane.

Her bitchiest moment was probably lying about tyrandes death in order to chase illidan, this put her in malfs badbooks.

Her attitude is callous, unkind and unloving, that equates to 'bitchy' in many ways, but i dont consider it a mark against her character or that it makes her unlikable, i much prefer her as a callous antihero (anti-villain?) than a super nice to everyone type of character that thrall and malf have become.

I wouldnt call her a villain, but she is illidans antagonist, and illidan in warcraft III was a protagonist in many chapters, this is just a problem with people confusing antagonist with villain and protagonist with hero.

I actually really like her as a character, she seems much more realistic than many others.

Bitchy and irrational is not more or less realistic than nice and understanding. If you want to see why people are calling her bitchy, I suggest you listen to part 2 of The Tomb of Sargeras. You can find it on Blizzard's youtube channel or a few posts back on the front page of mmo-champion.

[Sluvs]

You've posted that quote once already, can you post the link please? Thanks.

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While Tyrande is Elune's Chosen, it's not like she has exclusive rights. There was even a quest in vanilla WoW where the player character communicated with Elune.

Sure.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Watchers

That being said though , I like maiev as a character.

[OrcsRLame]

You've posted that quote once already, can you post the link please? Thanks.

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While Tyrande is Elune's Chosen, it's not like she has exclusive rights. There was even a quest in vanilla WoW where the player character communicated with Elune.

Yeah, I remember that. Now prove that she communicated with other people on a regular basis, and you can start to build a case against my argument. I mean, the player character is kind of big dick, especially compared to some random keeper or random watcher.

[Rhlor]

"Save the Universe"

my error save the multiverse. the legion exist in all realities

[Deleted]

Bitchy and irrational is not more or less realistic than nice and understanding. If you want to see why people are calling her bitchy, I suggest you listen to part 2 of The Tomb of Sargeras. You can find it on Blizzard's youtube channel or a few posts back on the front page of mmo-champion.

I would say however that Malfurion is kinda unrealistic as a person in many ways. For example being confronted with her lying about the death of his 10000 years love relationship. Its unrealistic he wouldnt at least slap that hoe around a little bit.

Also who the f goes to sleep for that long when you have a fine ass waiting at home for you.

[bloodmoth13]

Bitchy and irrational is not more or less realistic than nice and understanding. If you want to see why people are calling her bitchy, I suggest you listen to part 2 of The Tomb of Sargeras. You can find it on Blizzard's youtube channel or a few posts back on the front page of mmo-champion.

It actually is, most people react confrontationally to confrontational forces, thrall and malf have been at war with their opposing factions for a long time, its unreasonable for them to simply bury that pain and anger and treat everyone equally. maiev holds a grudge and her personality reflects that. Not saying shes right or wrong, i just enjoy characters like that more than unrealistically forgiving your enemies for whatever reason.

Im not saying shes not bitchy either, shes callous and harsh to khadgar, but the audio story goes over why, she blames khadgar for letting guldan escape and for cordana being corrupted, its misplaced anger and frustration, but thats no different to most people in life. i dont think i have ever met someone who didnt have misplaced anger or frustration

[Candy Cough]

my error save the multiverse. the legion exist in all realities

On the serious note, he almost died to a single pitlord, how does he think he's going to beat one of the top leaders of the burning legion like Archimonde or Kil'jaeden? Let alone the fact that Nathrezim aren't really capable warriors

Legion, the expansion itself is really, nothing more but a lazy attempt at regaining subscribers, as it stands it really just screams fanservice. You know, Illidan getting a free pass, allowing to do whatever he wants and still "Doesen't matter, I can kill 10 Billion innocent people and my fans would still hail me as their saviour and claim that I did nothing wrong

[bloodmoth13]

I agree she is very realistic.

She, however, is the kind of lady i would avoid talking to at a nightclub.

I cant for one moment imagine her being pleseant company.

Hahahaha i think shes the kind of girl i would approach, which would only lead to a huge blow in my self esteem followed by then knowing why she was standing alone in the corner in the first place