what spec to raid with at 110

[Sarkol]

In every previous expansion where Frost has scaled off haste, i.e.virtually all of them, Frost has ended up falling too far behind the other two to be worth taking in raids.

In this expansion, Frost has been returned to scaling primarily off haste.

I don't have to show diddly squat proving my fears are justified. My fears regarding frost are rooted in long term experience. Until absolutely proven otherwise, we should assume based on common sense that Frost will be crippled by scaling issues without intervention by Blizzard.

Maybe we will get a band aid fix in 7.2 or something if these fears are borne out. Like they were borne out nearly every single other time.

Pretty sure Frost was very good, if not better than Arcane in HFC on many fights. At least in the meaningful months of progression.

[Xires]

Agreed. Although I do feel that the difference between a fire mage who does 100% is not not hugely going to be better than a mage who doesn't since fire is less punishing right now.

Screw up your opening or just dont do it right and their will be a massive difference.

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Pretty sure Frost was very good, if not better than Arcane in HFC on many fights. At least in the meaningful months of progression.

No- Frost had been inferior to Arcane since Blackrock. It was better on only a few fights that had more then 1 target but that quickly changed. It got to the point where even Fire could out do Frost.

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In every previous expansion where Frost has scaled off haste, i.e.virtually all of them, Frost has ended up falling too far behind the other two to be worth taking in raids.

In this expansion, Frost has been returned to scaling primarily off haste.

I don't have to show diddly squat proving my fears are justified. My fears regarding frost are rooted in long term experience. Until absolutely proven otherwise, we should assume based on common sense that Frost will be crippled by scaling issues without intervention by Blizzard.

Maybe we will get a band aid fix in 7.2 or something if these fears are borne out. Like they were borne out nearly every single other time.

multistrike was better for frost then haste in WoD. Ice lance and Frostfirebolt dont have cast times and frostbolt was just a filler which is what made multistrike king for frost.

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Yeah there are logs, streams etc from Legion raid testing.
Arcane is quite a bit behind fire, but perhaps more significantly, the gameplay is way more fun as fire, even if the rotation is simple and might become boring with time.

Fire is more about reaction then any kind of rotation.

[gallamann]

I am 100% certain Frost worked in HFC because they added Class Trinket and 4pc tier on top of MS. Take those away and Frost would not have been competitive.

What I am not sure of, does Frost now suffer from age old scaling issue, since they removed Multistrike. I do see it as a valid argument that Lonely Winter talent will keep Blizzard from using Welly to improve Frost scaling.

Then there is haste and talented spells like Ray and GS, problem is the core of Frost does not have those spells, so while they do leverage haste, there is no guarantee every Frost mage will use these talents. Which leaves us with Frost Bolt and Ebonbolt as the only two that a Frost mage will always have.

Can see where faster Frost Bolts would be beneficial, however on flip side what secondary are you trading off?

Ebonbolt is every 45 secs, just not seeing ballooning haste for a cast that happens every 45 seconds, in game play where Ray/GS are not used.

Figure due to need for Frost to scale, Blizzard will make Ray and GS the best options on their respective tiers.

They also bandaged in Flurry for BF procs, what was our hardest hitting spell was removed because stupid reasons. They probably should have just axed BF procs entirely. The Flurry decision was a mistake.

Frost also has Shatter, which is great every where except where it matters most as a PvE'er, every boss is immune to Freeze. So that is adding some scaling for Crit at the expense of two different game play experiences for Frost.

I will continue to HOPE they address Frost before Legion launches

[Obelisk Kai]

Pretty sure Frost was very good, if not better than Arcane in HFC on many fights. At least in the meaningful months of progression.

If you re-read my comments, you'll see I talked about expansions where frost scaled primarily off Haste. In HFC, it scaled primarily off of multistrike and had other tools that made it viable.

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I am 100% certain Frost worked in HFC because they added Class Trinket and 4pc tier on top of MS. Take those away and Frost would not have been competitive.

What I am not sure of, does Frost now suffer from age old scaling issue, since they removed Multistrike. I do see it as a valid argument that Lonely Winter talent will keep Blizzard from using Welly to improve Frost scaling.

Then there is haste and talented spells like Ray and GS, problem is the core of Frost does not have those spells, so while they do leverage haste, there is no guarantee every Frost mage will use these talents. Which leaves us with Frost Bolt and Ebonbolt as the only two that a Frost mage will always have.

Can see where faster Frost Bolts would be beneficial, however on flip side what secondary are you trading off?

Ebonbolt is every 45 secs, just not seeing ballooning haste for a cast that happens every 45 seconds, in game play where Ray/GS are not used.

Figure due to need for Frost to scale, Blizzard will make Ray and GS the best options on their respective tiers.

They also bandaged in Flurry for BF procs, what was our hardest hitting spell was removed because stupid reasons. They probably should have just axed BF procs entirely. The Flurry decision was a mistake.

Frost also has Shatter, which is great every where except where it matters most as a PvE'er, every boss is immune to Freeze. So that is adding some scaling for Crit at the expense of two different game play experiences for Frost.

I will continue to HOPE they address Frost before Legion launches

I think Lonely Winter constrains them in how they can fix what will become a big issue in frost's poor scaling. Mastery is the logical place to improve Frost's scaling and the component where it buffs the pet's damage is the logical place to put that improvement. Lonely winter complicates such a solution. Maybe they will arrive at another one.

[LordAmbrosia]

I think Lonely Winter constrains them in how they can fix what will become a big issue in frost's poor scaling. Mastery is the logical place to improve Frost's scaling and the component where it buffs the pet's damage is the logical place to put that improvement. Lonely winter complicates such a solution. Maybe they will arrive at another one.

Lonely winter doesn't have to be a viable talent. They make lots of passive talents that simplify the gameplay of a class that are intentionally weaker than their more active alternatives (see the debacle with the passive DH talent). People who don't like having a water elemental can take this instead, but don't expect the devs to bend over backwards to cater to you.

[Gultar]

Fire is super fan and extremely powerful that what i'll be going with. plus felo'melorn looks amazing most likely go with frost for my second artifact I've always love the play of frost mage even if i just use that for pvp.

[Dizzeeyooo]

multistrike was better for frost then haste in WoD. Ice lance and Frostfirebolt dont have cast times and frostbolt was just a filler which is what made multistrike king for frost.

multistrike being the best stat for WoD frost was forced due to the brainfreeze interaction, it had nothing do with how much better/worse multistrike was as a base stat compared to haste

[Deleted]

If you re-read my comments, you'll see I talked about expansions where frost scaled primarily off Haste. In HFC, it scaled primarily off of multistrike and had other tools that made it viable.

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I think Lonely Winter constrains them in how they can fix what will become a big issue in frost's poor scaling. Mastery is the logical place to improve Frost's scaling and the component where it buffs the pet's damage is the logical place to put that improvement. Lonely winter complicates such a solution. Maybe they will arrive at another one.

Personally i think they should just buff the shit out of icicles, like you say mastery is the only real way to go for frost to have decent scaling. The way spells are setup now means that they can adjust GS damage for PvP and adjust the coefficient for PvE so its not a concern. The whole point of the talent is that it is ment to give back the playstyle of a uber powerful spell and sick damage frost used to have when deep freeze did damage to bosses.

[deadman1]

Is fire still top after the flame patch nerf etc?

[HTowN]

I think GS will be the to-go talent for frost. It hits like a truck and scaling off haste very nicely.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Really like Fire but it's still a hard choice between it and Destruction. Maybe I need higher gear to really see the potential of Fire since I'm only sitting on 33% crit with garbage Tanaan gear. I love how Pyro chains can melt mobs as best as they can at my level but then it swings in the opposite direction where it feels like I am doing nothing but pissing on them.

Hopefully the invasion event gear can help bring that up.

That said, there aren't other specs in the Warlock tree which entertain me whereas I can tolerate Arcane so I get more options down the road.

[Deleted]

Is fire still top after the flame patch nerf etc?

of the mage specs, yes.

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Really like Fire but it's still a hard choice between it and Destruction. Maybe I need higher gear to really see the potential of Fire since I'm only sitting on 33% crit with garbage Tanaan gear. I love how Pyro chains can melt mobs as best as they can at my level but then it swings in the opposite direction where it feels like I am doing nothing but pissing on them.

Hopefully the invasion event gear can help bring that up.

That said, there aren't other specs in the Warlock tree which entertain me whereas I can tolerate Arcane so I get more options down the road.

in legion you'll have multiple tools to offset the lack of crit streaks plus you'll get a good amount of crit early on as i was sitting at 40+% crit during lvl and that was using ilvl 680 starting gear so i wouldnt be worried about lacking crit and once you reach ilvl 835ish gear you'll sit at 50-55% in optimally itemized gear, if you calculate critical mass into that you'll sit at like 65-72ish% crit on pyroblast, fireball and scorch and that is fairly easy to get.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

in legion you'll have multiple tools to offset the lack of crit streaks plus you'll get a good amount of crit early on as i was sitting at 40+% crit during lvl and that was using ilvl 680 starting gear so i wouldnt be worried about lacking crit and once you reach ilvl 835ish gear you'll sit at 50-55% in optimally itemized gear, if you calculate critical mass into that you'll sit at like 65-72ish% crit on pyroblast, fireball and scorch and that is fairly easy to get.

That's what I like to hear.

I just hate turning away from the Scepter of Sargeras and green fire.

[stevenho]

Fire is more about reaction then any kind of rotation.

Like the whole game.
Thanks for stating the obvious.

[Xires]

Like the whole game.
Thanks for stating the obvious.

It was a response to someone who didn't know. Your welcome, ma'am.

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multistrike being the best stat for WoD frost was forced due to the brainfreeze interaction, it had nothing do with how much better/worse multistrike was as a base stat compared to haste

Yet multistrike was STILL better in every conceivable way. Thanks for playing.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Yet multistrike was STILL better in every conceivable way. Thanks for playing.

if brainfreeze in wod had absolutely nothing to do with multistrike, it would have been a horrible stat for frost - similarly for literally every other spec in the game which ended up liking multistrike, because of some forced interaction between the stat and procs or buff uptime

by itself, multistrike is absolute trash, and without the brainfreeze interaction frost would have preferred haste/crit/mastery pre class trinket and haste/crit post class trinket - multistrike is not and never has been "better in every conceivable way"

I would say thanks for playing right back at you, but fortunately i'm not a 10 year old idiot, so I don't feel the need to

In every previous expansion where Frost has scaled off haste, i.e.virtually all of them, Frost has ended up falling too far behind the other two to be worth taking in raids.

the spec was fine in SOO with the 2 set + mage bomb haste interactions

[Deleted]

the spec was fine in SOO with the 2 set + mage bomb haste interactions

Having to use Tier set bonuses to fix issues to make a spec viable is not good a good design model.

Not only does is just make the spec more cookie cutter, it shits on the enjoyment of those who are unlucky with drops because they know their spec is flawed without a certain set bonus.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Having to use Tier set bonuses to fix issues to make a spec viable is not good a good design model

you must love the legion legendary system then

[Deleted]

you must love the legion legendary system then

XD But those are not going to be balanced around............so they say!!!

[Deleted]

Is there any word on Legion simcraft?