PVE set bonuses and Mythic+ dungeons

[Jtbrig7390]

Well, you hade the paladin set linket just one post ago. Thats a ridiculously powerful set bonus right there. Don't think I ever said 100% so I guess you pulled that "out of your ass" but whatever.

In any case, good luck beating a ret paladin with the set when you have none of thoes peices and just random crap from dungeons. You know full well thats just not going to happen even if you're way, way better than who ever you're competing against.

The valor patch in WoD was a good indicator of that, when everyone started to bring alts that had "720 ilvl" on our raids but no damn sets or raid trinkets. It was a bloody nightmare.

Another problem this is going to cause is LFG..

"LFM for Mythic +6 must have full raid tier"

If people don't think this will be required for mythic's then they are clueless.

[satimy]

Its only a problem because classes are fixed with tier sets instead of balance changes.

Tier sets used to be 10% damage at best, now they are like 50-100%

[Jtbrig7390]

Its only a problem because classes are fixed with tier sets instead of balance changes.

Tier sets used to be 10% damage at best, now they are like 50-100%

Yep and as long as they provide such a huge boost there should be other ways to get them. I would be ok with mythic or mythic+ dungeons dropping tokens u trade in for gear like how u could at the end of Wrath.

[Aggrophobic]

Another problem this is going to cause is LFG..

"LFM for Mythic +6 must have full raid tier"

If people don't think this will be required for mythic's then they are clueless.

No doubt. Don't want to waste thoes keys on "scrubs" with dungeon gear.

[GwiGwi]

Or there could be tier in Mythic+ Dungeons or dungeon tier that bridges the cap between no set bonus and tier set bonus.

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Ummmm he didn't but I did. If you don't think that 2pc isn't at lease a 10% boost and the 4pc with the 2pc isn't at lease a 30% boost then ur clueless.

Also the tier for paladins in HFC was a 30%-40% boost.

Let's actually take a look at your statement and back it up with a some logs, below I've linked 2 logs from a ret paladin in a pretty good 13/13M guild.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=4
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=4

Templar's Verdict and Justicar's Vengeance and Execution sentence (Which are his Holy Power spenders) average totaled 39.19% of his total damage. If we boost that by 20% we will get a damage boost of ~7.8%, so you're telling me that the 4 set will then make up the other 22% of this made up 30% boost to his damage?

Do you have any evidence (sims) that actually show the HFC tier was a 30%-40% boost? Or am I suppose to again take your made up math without any evidence to back it up?

Edit: I actually did the home work for you:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...k-c/edit#gid=0

15.21%, you were real close with your guess though.

Well, you hade the paladin set linket just one post ago. Thats a ridiculously powerful set bonus right there. Don't think I ever said 100% so I guess you pulled that "out of your ass" but whatever.

In any case, good luck beating a ret paladin with the set when you have none of thoes peices and just random crap from dungeons. You know full well thats just not going to happen even if you're way, way better than who ever you're competing against.

The valor patch in WoD was a good indicator of that, when everyone started to bring alts that had "720 ilvl" on our raids but no damn sets or raid trinkets. It was a bloody nightmare.

I clearly linked the post where ShiyoKozuki stated that set bonuses "basically like double your damage as a lot of classes", which if you understand basic math equates to 100%. So perhaps next time read before replying.

Stop posting hyperbole and passing it off as facts.

[Jtbrig7390]

15.21%, you were real close with your guess though.

Ok and that 15% is still a big boost.

They could set it up where Dungeon and Raid tier have the same effects but different sets. So you can't 2pc from dungeon 2pc from raid and get the 4pc bonus. Set it up where u get tokens for beating Mythic+ (Higher diffculity more tokens) and turn them in for tier. Also clearly they will look different.

There is many ways they could do this.

Also Tier gear has not always been only gained via raiding. At the end of wrath you could do 5mans and get them and the ToT world boss in MOP dropped tier.

[Aggrophobic]

Let's actually take a look at your statement and back it up with a some logs, below I've linked 2 logs from a ret paladin in a pretty good 13/13M guild.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=4
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=4

Templar's Verdict and Justicar's Vengeance and Execution sentence (Which are his Holy Power spenders) average totaled 39.19% of his total damage. If we boost that by 20% we will get a damage boost of ~7.8%, so you're telling me that the 4 set will then make up the other 22% of this made up 30% boost to his damage?

Do you have any evidence (sims) that actually show the HFC tier was a 30%-40% boost? Or am I suppose to again take your made up math without any evidence to back it up?

Edit: I actually did the home work for you:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...k-c/edit#gid=0

15.21%, you were real close with your guess though.



I clearly linked the post where ShiyoKozuki stated that set bonuses "basically like double your damage as a lot of classes", which if you understand basic math equates to 100%. So perhaps next time read before replying.

Stop posting hyperbole and passing it off as facts.

Perhaps you should try to answer each post then and not clump it all togather like that. In any case, raid gear can easily dubble your damage in WoD and why it's unlikely that sets will give you such a boost in the first tier in Legion they are still strong enough to make you fall far, far behind if you don't have them.

Running dungeons for gear as a raider will not happen and non-raiders will have to make do with their classes being unbalanced and underperforming.

Telling people that they will do just fine without sets is just bullshit and you know it.

[Snuffleupagus]

Perhaps you should try to answer each post then and not clump it all togather like that. In any case, raid gear can easily dubble your damage in WoD and why it's unlikely that sets will give you such a boost in the first tier in Legion they are still strong enough to make you fall far, far behind if you don't have them.

Running dungeons for gear as a raider will not happen and non-raiders will have to make do with their classes being unbalanced and underperforming.

Telling people that they will do just fine without sets is just bullshit and you know it.

Blizzard has already commited to not making tier bonuses game breaking. They no longer "dubble" your damage. You said it yourself, so what's the issue? Either they superpower your throughput and make 5 mans easy, or they do a bit more throughput and make 5 mans a touch easier for people who have taken the time to raid.

And honestly, stop lying about what you want. You want to faceroll content and you want to get to faceroll status fast. You'll be pleased to know that on the beta, Mythic+ is pretty faceroll if you're not shit. It's not PUG content, it never was. It's designed for a coordinated group who communicate with each other.

Once you have that part down, it's pretty damn easy.

Or did you think WoD mythics were hard in 660 gear? Because that would explain a lot.

Edit: if you think raiders won't run mythics for titanforged gear, you are very out of touch with the raiding community.

[GwiGwi]

Ok and that 15% is still a big boost.

They could set it up where Dungeon and Raid tier have the same effects but different sets. So you can't 2pc from dungeon 2pc from raid and get the 4pc bonus. Set it up where u get tokens for beating Mythic+ (Higher diffculity more tokens) and turn them in for tier. Also clearly they will look different.

There is many ways they could do this.

Also Tier gear has not always been only gained via raiding. At the end of wrath you could do 5mans and get them and the ToT world boss in MOP dropped tier.

So you want Blizzard to spend extra effort to design different looking tier sets and tier bonuses for 5 man dungeons so they can give people even LESS incentive to do raids, a part of the game where they have stated multiple times take a huge amount of time to design. Like many people have already stated in this thread, I'm glad players aren't the ones in charge of design decisions in this game.

Perhaps you should try to answer each post then and not clump it all togather like that. In any case, raid gear can easily dubble your damage in WoD and why it's unlikely that sets will give you such a boost in the first tier in Legion they are still strong enough to make you fall far, far behind if you don't have them.

Running dungeons for gear as a raider will not happen and non-raiders will have to make do with their classes being unbalanced and underperforming.

Telling people that they will do just fine without sets is just bullshit and you know it.

Again, where are you getting these ideas that "raid gear can easily double your damage in WoD"? Double your damage compared to whom? A fresh 110?

Running dungeons for gear as a raider will happen if they place the same tier set and trinkets in M+ dungeons. Me and my guild will be running M+ dungeons like crazy once Emerald Nightmare opens because with the current M+ system it's actually a faster way to acquire Heroic+ ilvl gear than raiding, due to M+ not having a lockout at all.

I can tell people that they will do just fine without sets because I've actually done M+ dungeons on beta, and it will be a long time before anyone is running these exact same dungeons in mythic tier gear. And trust me, you don't need 905+ilvl + tier sets to easily beat M+10 or more.

[Ryxxi]

Raids always dropped the best gear..may be bar one or two items like hourglass from black monrass. Pretty sure blizz said multiple times in Q&A that in legion , mythic raids will have tge best drops and more chances for higher ilv. The best that wud happen is tier bonuses not working in M+.

[Deleted]

A side of me have a problem with tier dropping in 5 man content if it becomes too easily obtainable. But say the +10 and above where gear drops don't increase in quality could award a chance of raid loot. That would still mean you have to put in a lot of work to get them while allowing them to drop without disturbing the balance.

Now this might sound like gating it to some people, and yes that's exactly what it is. It locks the tier pieces behind the hardest content the way it has always been while you can still attain it asuming you put in the same amount of effort.

[Aggrophobic]

Blizzard has already commited to not making tier bonuses game breaking. They no longer "dubble" your damage. You said it yourself, so what's the issue? Either they superpower your throughput and make 5 mans easy, or they do a bit more throughput and make 5 mans a touch easier for people who have taken the time to raid.

And honestly, stop lying about what you want. You want to faceroll content and you want to get to faceroll status fast. You'll be pleased to know that on the beta, Mythic+ is pretty faceroll if you're not shit. It's not PUG content, it never was. It's designed for a coordinated group who communicate with each other.

Once you have that part down, it's pretty damn easy.

Or did you think WoD mythics were hard in 660 gear? Because that would explain a lot.

Edit: if you think raiders won't run mythics for titanforged gear, you are very out of touch with the raiding community.

No, I don't want to "faceroll" content. I don't have much intrest in dungeons at all and stick to raiding myself.
I'm fine with sets only dropping in raids but Blizzard promotes this expantion as one where you can get BiS items from anywhere and thats not really true. They random stuff you get from dungeons won't do, compared to raid gear for the most part.

Again though, thats fine but you still have to raid.

So you want Blizzard to spend extra effort to design different looking tier sets and tier bonuses for 5 man dungeons so they can give people even LESS incentive to do raids, a part of the game where they have stated multiple times take a huge amount of time to design. Like many people have already stated in this thread, I'm glad players aren't the ones in charge of design decisions in this game.



Again, where are you getting these ideas that "raid gear can easily double your damage in WoD"? Double your damage compared to whom? A fresh 110?

Running dungeons for gear as a raider will happen if they place the same tier set and trinkets in M+ dungeons. Me and my guild will be running M+ dungeons like crazy once Emerald Nightmare opens because with the current M+ system it's actually a faster way to acquire Heroic+ ilvl gear than raiding, due to M+ not having a lockout at all.

I can tell people that they will do just fine without sets because I've actually done M+ dungeons on beta, and it will be a long time before anyone is running these exact same dungeons in mythic tier gear. And trust me, you don't need 905+ilvl + tier sets to easily beat M+10 or more.

Compared to someone without raid gear? Apexis gear, PvP gear. You know gear thats drops outside of raids. Thoes large, instances with big scary monster in them. I'm sure you've heard of them.

People will do fine, I'm sure but they will not be close to people with set items. "Trust me", I've done mythic dungeons as well.

[Revamp Man]

Another problem this is going to cause is LFG..

"LFM for Mythic +6 must have full raid tier"

If people don't think this will be required for mythic's then they are clueless.

mythic+15 has already been completed on the beta without tier

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Ok and that 15% is still a big boost.

They could set it up where Dungeon and Raid tier have the same effects but different sets. So you can't 2pc from dungeon 2pc from raid and get the 4pc bonus. Set it up where u get tokens for beating Mythic+ (Higher diffculity more tokens) and turn them in for tier. Also clearly they will look different.

There is many ways they could do this.

Also Tier gear has not always been only gained via raiding. At the end of wrath you could do 5mans and get them and the ToT world boss in MOP dropped tier.

would it help to know lfr drops tier now??

and with mythic+ being completely possible without it you could satisfy the "OMG I NEED TIER BECAUSE....WELL I NEED IT!!!!!" feeling while knowing its just an added bonus

plus technically you do have item sets in mythic+ since arcway and court of stars drop set items

[Jtbrig7390]

mythic+15 has already been completed on the beta without tier

And Paragon has cleared heroic of raids in the first two weeks they came out. Doesn't mean everyone plays at that skill level nore does it change the fact tier will provide a big boost to groups and be a gate for many groups.

Ill be doing LFR so ill have that tier at some point, still doesn't change the fact tier only coming out of raids is shitty.

[Revamp Man]

Perhaps you should try to answer each post then and not clump it all togather like that. In any case, raid gear can easily dubble your damage in WoD and why it's unlikely that sets will give you such a boost in the first tier in Legion they are still strong enough to make you fall far, far behind if you don't have them.

Running dungeons for gear as a raider will not happen and non-raiders will have to make do with their classes being unbalanced and underperforming.

Telling people that they will do just fine without sets is just bullshit and you know it.

they will do just fine

its like doing tanaan without a full tier set

[Jtbrig7390]

would it help to know lfr drops tier now??

and with mythic+ being completely possible without it you could satisfy the "OMG I NEED TIER BECAUSE....WELL I NEED IT!!!!!" feeling while knowing its just an added bonus

plus technically you do have item sets in mythic+ since arcway and court of stars drop set items

I know I am in the beta, I know what drops. Doesn't change the fact it forces people to do content they don't want to do to advance or have a edge in content they do enjoy.

Pvp'ers shouldn't be forced to Pve and those wanting to do mythic+ shouldn't be forced to do raiding.

[Revamp Man]

And Paragon has cleared heroic of raids in the first two weeks they came out. Doesn't mean everyone plays at that skill level nore does it change the fact tier will provide a big boost to groups and be a gate for many groups.

Ill be doing LFR so ill have that tier at some point, still doesn't change the fact tier only coming out of raids is shitty.

its raid loot though....

and the whole "not everyone is good at the game so the system needs to help the players that are less skilled" is just awful

look at cata haroics they were AWESOME when launched but then because of an outcry of being too difficult they got nerfed to the ground

same will happen to mythic+ but guess what the fun thing is with that system....it never ends so you will always be able to progress meaning theres always another step ahead meaning giving tier to the less skilled players wouldnt do much in the grand scheme anyways unless this is just about everyone clearing mythic+10 where the gear caps out in which case screw the lootwhores??

its possible to kill the highest level without tier and blizz shouldnt have to cater to every single player

its called mythic+ not wod lfr you wont get your hand held

the fact people want tier for less effort than before is shitty

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I know I am in the beta, I know what drops. Doesn't change the fact it forces people to do content they don't want to do to advance or have a edge in content they do enjoy.

Pvp'ers shouldn't be forced to Pve and those wanting to do mythic+ shouldn't be forced to do raiding.

cool so since you know mythic+ is being cleared you know your not forced

glad we got that settled

[Jtbrig7390]

cool so since you know mythic+ is being cleared you know your not forced

glad we got that settled

Paragon can clear NM naked so maybe you should do that as well since it can be done. Hell 25 Death Knights can clear HFC so lets set it up so where we are all only Death Knights.....

I'm done with this topic have fun.

[aikanaro]

The only real way to deal with a set bonus issue is to not have set bonuses at all. PERIOD. FFXIV has no set bonuses and no one complains there. I'm not saying they shouldn't make "Sets", no feel free to make the gear match. They do that now with boots and belts anyway.

[GwiGwi]

Compared to someone without raid gear? Apexis gear, PvP gear. You know gear thats drops outside of raids. Thoes large, instances with big scary monster in them. I'm sure you've heard of them.

People will do fine, I'm sure but they will not be close to people with set items. "Trust me", I've done mythic dungeons as well.

Why are you comparing people with raid gear to others with apexis gear and PvP gear in a debate about mythic dungeon gear vs raid tier gear? I could say that people in full M+ dungeon gear will double the dps of a fresh 110, it has no relevance in this debate.