Legion: Elemental Specific

[Hivey]

This is what I don't understand about this forum/discussion. If you are not (let's expand your "world first" point) playing top100, balance doesn't matter at all. No one is saying you can't play elemental at world rank 500. You always could, you can even bring 3 elementals and no mages in that bracket. So if we are talking about balance, we must talk about top 100 during progression.
We also don't really care about rankings during farm when you can speedkill bosses.
Mages were OP during farm this content, but that doesn't matter either. They were strong during progress, that matters.

Can we atleast agree on this?

Disagree. Regardless of whether you are in a mythic or heroic guild, you want to feel that your class is not disadvantaged, or disadvantaging your guild by your spec choice.

[Excessu]

just play what u want. people are so concerned about what's viable etc.. If you actually were affected by "viability" you would of never created a shaman in the first place.

if you think having a 2-5% dmg difference to a hunter or mage is hurting the people u play with u should go to a specialist so he can make you understand how fucking autistic you are.

[Hivey]

just play what u want. people are so concerned about what's viable etc.. If you actually were affected by "viability" you would of never created a shaman in the first place.

if you think having a 2-5% dmg difference to a hunter or mage is hurting the people u play with u should go to a specialist so he can make you understand how fucking autistic you are.

Oh if only the performance difference was only 2-5%...

[FalcFalcFalc]

Aside from the World 50-100 bracket or whatever, it all depends on how you do in your own raid. If you're killing bosses and you're a top 5 dpser as Ele and you enjoy it, play Ele. Yes, you can say that 'your guildies suck ass' but who cares, if you're having fun and killing bosses with your guild then do it. Ele might not be taken for super high end raiding as there is a remaining stigma that Ele sucks coming out of WoD. But in practice, Ele has very good ST burst and target switching potential which I can argue is a very important aspect of Mythic raiding. Might not be able to cheese mechanics but not many classes can anymore AND in Mythic testing I've seen, Blizzard is scaling way back on cheesable mechanics anyway.

It might not bring burst AOE for Mythic+ but after around Mythic+ 8 the packs live for a long period of time which makes Lightning Surge Totem, Purge, the best interrupt in the game and the constant knockdown from EQ absolutely invaluable. There are a few Eles I know who's tanks won't even do a higher Mythic+ without them simply because the EQ knockdown adds a huge amount of survivability.

Leveling is a breeze thanks to the class trinket. It's literally ridiculous how many mobs you can pull and Flame Shock down. Rares die very fast with Asc + EM + PE.

Ele isn't perfect and does suffer from a stigma of suckage due to WoD and previous balancing issues. Some talents also work against each other like Lightning Rod and Icefury. And the 'no path available' garbage sucks really bad. But overall, I believe Elemental is in a good spot and barring further nerfs, only stands to improve. I might be wrong as I can't predict the future but don't count the spec out yet. Keep an open mind, unless the pendulum swings completely in the wrong direction the spec will be pretty damn good. The stigma will evaporate as more people understand that things have changed.

[Lucrece]

Disagree. Regardless of whether you are in a mythic or heroic guild, you want to feel that your class is not disadvantaged, or disadvantaging your guild by your spec choice.

Then why the hell did you roll a hybrid? You're disadvantage by the simple fact you don't have 2 other DPS toolkits to fall on. We're not talking numbers, just the sheer variety of dps skillsets a pure brings compared to a hybrid.

[Algoma0]

Aside from the World 50-100 bracket or whatever, [...] I believe Elemental is in a good spot and barring further nerfs, only stands to improve.

No. Elemental is not in a good spot, not world 50, 100 or 1000. Yes, you can still play Elemental in a world 300 guild, that doesn't at all mean that balancing is fine. Stop saying that.

[Wilwind]

No. Elemental is not in a good spot, not world 50, 100 or 1000. Yes, you can still play Elemental in a world 300 guild, that doesn't at all mean that balancing is fine. Stop saying that.

[miffy23]

You're comparing a hybrid with a pure dps. We have no proper logs or info on how classes will perform.

fuck the numbers and put your focus on the awful talent synergy and how bad the new Mastery is.

Many specs have underwhelming Mastery effects. That does not mean the spec itself is broken.

The talents I more or less agree with - however there are other specs that also have pretty useless or undertuned talents at this point that are nontheless considered "stronger". Enhancement for example. It has pretty useless and borderline endlessly unviable talents in several Tiers, yet it is considered a success while Elemental is shit on.

I agree that there are some issues with certain talents not making much sense and flying against the face of the spec, but those in themselves will not break the spec for Mythic if tuning is alright.

Two more things: there is no such thing as a hybrid DPS spec anymore, this concept was thrown out of the window many years ago. This leaves us with the problem of specs such as Elemental always needing to bring viable competitive DPS, or be shelved for high end progression. In that regard, concern is always warranted. It's a selfmade problem by Blizzard.

Also, the question has to be asked whether every spec NEEDS to be viable for "Top100 and World First". Let's put all the discussion to one side for a moment and consider: is a spec truly a horrible failure if it is played by a healthy number of people, can perform any of the available content, and is generally enjoyed by most? I simply don't think basing spec evaluations on what will be cookie cutter for the progress race makes a lot of sense.

[Deleted]

Drarakaun (Wil on Earthshrine): can't wait to see what my bait catches

Such a genious.

Aside from the World 50-100 bracket or whatever, it all depends on how you do in your own raid. If you're killing bosses and you're a top 5 dpser as Ele and you enjoy it, play Ele. Yes, you can say that 'your guildies suck ass' but who cares, if you're having fun and killing bosses with your guild then do it. Ele might not be taken for super high end raiding as there is a remaining stigma that Ele sucks coming out of WoD. But in practice, Ele has very good ST burst and target switching potential which I can argue is a very important aspect of Mythic raiding. Might not be able to cheese mechanics but not many classes can anymore AND in Mythic testing I've seen, Blizzard is scaling way back on cheesable mechanics anyway.

It might not bring burst AOE for Mythic+ but after around Mythic+ 8 the packs live for a long period of time which makes Lightning Surge Totem, Purge, the best interrupt in the game and the constant knockdown from EQ absolutely invaluable. There are a few Eles I know who's tanks won't even do a higher Mythic+ without them simply because the EQ knockdown adds a huge amount of survivability.

Leveling is a breeze thanks to the class trinket. It's literally ridiculous how many mobs you can pull and Flame Shock down. Rares die very fast with Asc + EM + PE.

Ele isn't perfect and does suffer from a stigma of suckage due to WoD and previous balancing issues. Some talents also work against each other like Lightning Rod and Icefury. And the 'no path available' garbage sucks really bad. But overall, I believe Elemental is in a good spot and barring further nerfs, only stands to improve. I might be wrong as I can't predict the future but don't count the spec out yet. Keep an open mind, unless the pendulum swings completely in the wrong direction the spec will be pretty damn good. The stigma will evaporate as more people understand that things have changed.

Damn you like to act special everywhere, yet you just killed mythic Archimonde in mid December. Now you'll bring the excuse of 2 nights raid, but you still collected the gear and especially ring upgrades. You dont listen to Elemental criticism because you suck yourselves and try to excuse it with a 2 night shedule. Of course it doesnt matter what you play if you're in a guild which kills mythic Archimonde like 6 months after the raid instance was released, so why even post at all?

Falc (Earthshrine) about Algamo: "That guy's Wowprogress page is a Ele shaman with 709 ilvl and a 680 ilvl Hunter"

I see you like to make fun of people posting here, especially @Algoma0, in your safe sanctuary at Earthshrine (hopefully @binkenstein mutes you for this, or prohibits such bahaivor).

Yes I killed Arch in mid december on a 2 day sched, I don't feel special but I also performed pretty well in my raid and I dont think Ele is as shitty as people are making it out to be
Fuck me rite??!

Yes, please.

All of this doesnt make you a bad person, nor does you performing well in your raid while being overgeared (maxed out ring, wtf) and 6 months in in a raid instance make this spec good. This is what you've to get in your head.

[Excessu]

Many specs have underwhelming Mastery effects. That does not mean the spec itself is broken.

The talents I more or less agree with - however there are other specs that also have pretty useless or undertuned talents at this point that are nontheless considered "stronger". Enhancement for example. It has pretty useless and borderline endlessly unviable talents in several Tiers, yet it is considered a success while Elemental is shit on.

I agree that there are some issues with certain talents not making much sense and flying against the face of the spec, but those in themselves will not break the spec for Mythic if tuning is alright.

Two more things: there is no such thing as a hybrid DPS spec anymore, this concept was thrown out of the window many years ago. This leaves us with the problem of specs such as Elemental always needing to bring viable competitive DPS, or be shelved for high end progression. In that regard, concern is always warranted. It's a selfmade problem by Blizzard.

Also, the question has to be asked whether every spec NEEDS to be viable for "Top100 and World First". Let's put all the discussion to one side for a moment and consider: is a spec truly a horrible failure if it is played by a healthy number of people, can perform any of the available content, and is generally enjoyed by most? I simply don't think basing spec evaluations on what will be cookie cutter for the progress race makes a lot of sense.

I agree with all your points. As it stands though do we have any info/proper logs to judge how ele will perform?

[Algoma0]

Falc (Earthshrine) about Algamo: "That guy's Wowprogress page is a Ele shaman with 709 ilvl and a 680 ilvl Hunter".

I didn't play during HFC, but finished world#20 in BRF (as elemental). Is that a good enough reason to engage with me?

[Wilwind]

Such a genious.

/slowclap
The irony.

[Prankish]

LOL. Social Healer and UCantdoShit are both banned now. This is spectacular. A ton of shitty Shamans who have no idea what they are talking about, are butthurt because those two don't adhere to the rules of their safe space. Don't worry guys, if you keep reporting the top Shamans in this forum it'll definitely make it a better place. Keep the reports flying boys.

Seriously though, you should all be reporting guys like miffy and lucrece. They provide nothing of substance but instead only argue with their ill informed idea's. If not, you'll see no respectable Shamans here, and come legion, both Miffy and lucrece will be the first to comment on your advice thread about this great talent setup that got them world 2000 normal hogger. SPOILER ALERT: It's crap.

As some one who used this site to learn Elemental this expansion, I can't help but feel it may be completely useless come legion. None of the good Shamans are here anymore because they are forced to argue with the clueless. Earthshrine isnt much better because its filled with pages upon pages of "Should I use ES while in Ascendance". The format is just terrible for discussion because of the shit you have to sift through.

[Lucrece]

LOL. Social Healer and UCantdoShit are both banned now. This is spectacular. A ton of shitty Shamans who have no idea what they are talking about, are butthurt because those two don't adhere to the rules of their safe space. Don't worry guys, if you keep reporting the top Shamans in this forum it'll definitely make it a better place. Keep the reports flying boys.

Seriously though, you should all be reporting guys like miffy and lucrece. They provide nothing of substance but instead only argue with their ill informed idea's. If not, you'll see no respectable Shamans here, and come legion, both Miffy and lucrece will be the first to comment on your advice thread about this great talent setup that got them world 2000 normal hogger. SPOILER ALERT: It's crap.

So much substance in calling those you disagree with "shitty" and making a mockery of safe spaces in a forum. If you want to be a dick, go do so on Twitter or reddit.

[Algoma0]

LOL. Social Healer and UCantdoShit are both banned now.

Do we know what they were banned for? Any post specifically?

[Prankish]

So much substance in calling those you disagree with "shitty" and making a mockery of safe spaces in a forum. If you want to be a dick, go do so on Twitter or reddit.

90% of the posts on the past few pages is more about the people on this forum than Elemental itself. With that in mind I think my post does have substance. Im commenting on the obvious issue of the brigading done by by the worst Shamans on here who got their fee fee's hurt.

You're post however, is basically saying: "Your criticism of my safe space is outside the boundaries of my safe space. Because my emotions are not something I can control I will call you a dick. Those who violate my safe space should go to another safe space that is not mine in particular. Regardless of the validity of my opinion I cannot be criticized. Me and my legion of Demi-Foxkin Akoisexuals will hit report until we are once again in our own vacuum"

Do we know what they were banned for? Any post specifically?

Na I don't know how to find out what in particular got someone banned. Both can get pretty harsh when it comes to some posts but I never judged them too much for it. Both are top 10 Shamans arguing with what I imagine must look like:

[FalcFalcFalc]

I didn't play during HFC, but finished world#20 in BRF (as elemental). Is that a good enough reason to engage with me?

Elemental actually wasn't too bad in BRF. However, if the last time you played the spec was over a year ago then your opinion is your own but your views aren't relevant. I don't know if you even have Beta. We are talking about performance at 110.

All of this doesnt make you a bad person, nor does you performing well in your raid while being overgeared (maxed out ring, wtf) and 6 months in in a raid instance make this spec good. This is what you've to get in your head.

People who have done extensive testing with the spec on Beta (including me) don't think the spec is that far off from being good. And please re-read my post as I did mention there are glaring issues with the spec as well as that most likely top guilds will not take Elemental. However, I believe this to be more of a lasting stigma that persisted throughout WoD rather than an indication that the spec is mostly and utterly absolute shit. Try reading my post again so you can understand the meaning of what I was trying to convey.

My experience with the spec raiding in HFC is in a 2 day guild that killed Archimonde in December. Yes with upgrades and about a half maxed ring. I am not blind to the shortcomings of the spec but for me, I find it fun (at 110) and I don't find it to be utter and complete shit (at 110) as most everyone else on this thread thinks. I never defended the spec in HFC, it was pretty awful but I found it fun sometimes. My guild let me go down on Kilrogg and I enjoyed Xhul which made it tolerable.

Also, why are we even talking about how the spec has been in HFC? I believe the title says "Legion: Elemental Specific". Who gives a shit about HFC, WoD is over. I never said the spec is amazing with no issues and does everything perfectly. I am merely pointing out that there are positives and negatives about the spec when all anyone wants to see are the negatives. But you can ask people all over the place, the people you should be asking are Wil, Starsha, Doublejay, Notes, Sadozai and the countless others who have put a ton of time into Beta. Binkenstein has swapped but still has done a lot of math for us. And honestly, we don't even know where the spec will end up before raiding as there will most likely be a day one tuning patch as well as a tuning patch a couple weeks after raids open so all of this arguing is just a waste of energy in the first place.

No one is saying the spec is amazing and most of us are saying it's mid-pack right now. But don't negate the positives of the spec just because we weren't that great in HFC. It's Legion now, we do some things really well and we still have some glaring problems. But I believe the positives outweigh the negatives, at least for me. If people feel different, THAT'S COOL TOO.

[Algoma0]

Elemental actually wasn't too bad in BRF. However, if the last time you played the spec was over a year ago then your opinion is your own but your views aren't relevant. I don't know if you even have Beta. We are talking about performance at 110.

Yes I have beta. Yes, we are talking about performance at 110.

If Elemental does end up "middle of the pack" dps-wise, people just won't play elemental. The spec wasn't bad in WoD, if you look at dps. It's bad at everything else (soaking, survivability, mobility, raidcooldowns etc.). That hasn't changed. That's the issue. We lost mobility and survivability for a bad version of Stampeding Roar, I somehow don't think that will make us more viable if we'll do less DPS than hunters and mages while having less utility.

And honestly, we don't even know where the spec will end up before raiding as there will most likely be a day one tuning patch as well as a tuning patch a couple weeks after raids open so all of this arguing is just a waste of energy in the first place.

You're saying we shouldnt discuss balance (dps) because there might be a patch before release? That's the stupidest thing I've read on page 115 (sadly can't beat previous pages, sorry)

[Lucrece]

90% of the posts on the past few pages is more about the people on this forum than Elemental itself. With that in mind I think my post does have substance. Im commenting on the obvious issue of the brigading done by by the worst Shamans on here who got their fee fee's hurt.

You're post however, is basically saying: "Your criticism of my safe space is outside the boundaries of my safe space. Because my emotions are not something I can control I will call you a dick. Those who violate my safe space should go to another safe space that is not mine in particular. Regardless of the validity of my opinion I cannot be criticized. Me and my legion of Demi-Foxkin Akoisexuals will hit report until we are once again in our own vacuum"



Na I don't know how to find out what in particular got someone banned. Both can get pretty harsh when it comes to some posts but I never judged them too much for it. Both are top 10 Shamans arguing with what I imagine must look like:

Please, whatever issues you have with feminists or SJW, go work them out somewhere or see a therapist about it. This is not a thread for you to go around projecting your grievances about not being able to call people retards and shitters with impunity.

If communicating with basic decency with other people is too much to ask of you, just refrain from public discussion.

[Algoma0]

Please, whatever issues you have with feminists or SJW, go work them out somewhere or see a therapist about it. This is not a thread for you to go around projecting your grievances about not being able to call people retards and shitters with impunity.

Well, banning people for saying something mean (but true) does sound alot like SJW-ish behavior.