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  1. #81
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    The 110 ones are rather costly to make though, compared to the ones on live, unless they changed the costs recently.

    They will no doubt cost a lot more than 11g.
    They won't.
    With all the nodes being yours and yours alone its fucking easy to farm and you will only need 1 or 2 plants at level 3 to get enough for a tome.
    They will be dirt cheap.
    Its the same with all other gathering prof's.
    I am sitting on 1200 leather and 750 scales at the moment on the beta from just leveling up, didn't go out and farmed once.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    It's not always about numbers, it's about situations. Council fight? I want Barrage and other such talents. Single boss? I might want Glaive Toss. In MoP and WoD I could change talents on a row like that for the cost of a cheap reagent. Now, I can't without spending real gold. (Though honestly 10g isn't a barrier).

    My point is really two fold:

    1) Why mess with this now, four years after it was introduced? And why not think this through during design time?

    2) If it's really just a 10g cost then that's not really a barrier so as a design team you've failed at really making people view their talents as a defining aspect of their character.
    The community is what stopped talents being a defining choice, not blizzard.
    There are simply more effective talents, something which ALWAYS happens when there is a choice.
    The is a fundamental fact, there in any mechanical choices for a character there are ones which are better in some way in a given set of circumstances.

    Whether we have a real choice or not isn't something blizzard decides, instead it is other players that do that.
    As in are there consequences for us, such as being kicked, being ordered to use the optimal ones for bigger numbers etc.

    I feel a large part of it is that blizzard don't like the idea of always optimal talents.
    And the only way to fix that is to add in an inconvenience.
    The problem there is getting the annoyance/cost or whatever the disrupting factor there is right, so that you don't alienate the top end who then blame that barrier, and subsequently their use of "sub-par" talents for an encounter wipe.
    Hence the barrier tends to be most disruptive to the lower end.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Satanous View Post
    Yea!!! just like noone changed talents when you had to pay a increasing amount, and only could do it at a trainer...wait people did.
    Are you seriously comparing the old talent trees to the new talent system? When did one change those a lot? How they sold us on this new system is they said you could change talents in the fly depending on need fight to fight and now have changed thier tune on it. It would be a bit better if they said this change was to help keep being a scribe worthwhile as they have basically gotten rid of glyphs thier money maker. But no they said they don't want us changing talents in the fly the exact thing they said was the benefit of this new talent system.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    So, because I disagree with having talents being available basically all the time while still being called talents means im gullible? Thats interesting, but wrong. Only for a reason or two, though.
    When you effectively copy/paste Hazzikostas' weak PR excuses and add no substance, that means you took that stance not because that's what you actually thought about the talent system but because Blizzard took that position and you will accept literally anything they say. This is exactly the same thing all the Blizzard zealots did over flying, and look how that ended up. Literally NO ONE thought the talent flexibility was a bad thing before Hazzikostas shat out that wall of text. I challenge anyone to actually find a post before that date of someone saying "You know what this talent system needs? LESS flexibility!". You only saw it after the post; because you people are easily swayed by Blizzard PR and let them make your opinions for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    I agree with Blizzard that talents should not always be available to you, because if it gets to that point which it almost was, they should just be in your spellbook and be called basic abilities rather than talents. I never said I agree with them switching the talent trees from the pre cata style to the mop style we have now in order to achieve that flexibility though.
    Uhh, no. It's actually nothing like that, because you can't switch talents in combat. You have to choose your talents BEFORE the encounter. Having all of them in your spellbook at once is not the same thing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Keep in mind, whether they made the mop talent trees to be more flexible, that was never achieved. There was always a cookie cutter build for both aoe and ST and there always will be unless they somehow achieve that goal of flexibility, but they havent yet, which is why I agree with the way they are currently going.
    Holy shit. Newsflash: Some talents are better for AoE and some are better at Single Target, and you might have to use the ST ones on ST fights while you pick AoE talents on AoE fights. Stop the fucking presses. It's almost like the talent system is achieving exactly its intended purpose by encouraging the player to pick the best tool for the job. Oh the humanity! Think of the children! Better impose an enormous gold cost on that unacceptable behaviour.

    And not only that: several talent tiers are utility too. If Blizzard actually deigned to keep the talents balanced like most of them were in MoP, you would actually not have cookie cutter choices (a terrible vestigial remnant of talent trees that they have now wholesale endorsed) and you would see interesting talent choices depending on the fight. Even in late 6.2, the absolute rock bottom of class, spec, and talent balance, you STILL had tiers like the AoE damage tier for Hunters which had 3 viable talents (i.e. Glaive Toss for PvP, Powershot for single target, Barrage for AoE). You even had utility tiers like the disengage tier for hunters where all 3 were useful given situations. Once again, this is exactly the strength of the 5.0 talent system. And that's what they are trying to throw away, because scribes have got to have SOME reason to exist now that glyphs are removed (another terrible design decision which serves to take even more choice away from the player: a reoccurring theme for post-WoD WoW).

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    The main difference is that they realized the flexibility they were going for with this talent system is hardly achievable without perfect balance of each individual talent, and since thats obviously not how things are, I agree with their current method. You cant switch between adds and bosses now without a scribe in the raid or a tome of your own. Thats fine with me, the flexibility if you can even call it that wasnt working. It made a cookie cutter build for both AoE and ST, and people were able to change between each whenever they please, which was ridiculous and isnt really what Id call flexibility, its way to far ahead of it.
    Yes, I remember the complaints daily about how ridiculous all this fucking player choice was in MoP and WoD. Oh wait, there were literally 0 complaints about this "issue" because Blizzard pulled it out of their ass because they were mad about players complaining about the almost-equally-stupid respec cost. Once again, I challenge anyone to find any posts saying that all this FLEXIBILITY and CHOICE was bad for the game. What a laughable concept! I would almost not believe someone were actually trying to make this argument with a straight face, but then I remembered how desperately you need to defend Blizzard and it all makes sense.

    Talent choices were too flexible. My fucking god. You heard it here first. (Which is actually kind of true, since no one was ever making this argument).

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    My point is, we have the same cookie cutter shit between AoE and ST builds we have always had, except now you arent able to switch as freely as before. I agree with this because the flexibility of the mop talents and WoD talents was getting way out of hand and people were even switching talents between add packs (3-4 adds or 6-7 adds, etc} and bosses. At that point, everything should just be a basic ability rather than a talent, but that would be stupid. Now people cant do that, or not nearly as much at least, which is why I agree with the current system.
    "Better start literally copy-pasting what I wrote previously otherwise my post would be so short it might look like my arguments don't have any substance".

    If you copy-paste your arguments, I will copy-paste my responses. Here it is again:

    Yes, I remember the complaints daily about how ridiculous all this fucking player choice was in MoP and WoD. Oh wait, there were literally 0 complaints about this "issue" because Blizzard pulled it out of their ass because they were mad about players complaining about the almost-equally-stupid respec cost. Once again, I challenge anyone to find any posts saying that all this FLEXIBILITY and CHOICE was bad for the game. What a laughable concept! I would almost not believe someone were actually trying to make this argument with a straight face, but then I remembered how desperately you need to defend Blizzard and it all makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    I wouldnt mind having more flexibility as long as talents are balanced and can be matched evenly with each other, but that hasnt been achieved yet. Im also really glad that we can choose to be any spec any time, never liked being restricted by Duel spec.
    You didn't mind until Blizzard told you to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    p.s- My entire argument along with yours falls apart if people just buy tomes though. Then it stays the exact same as mop/wod, people can switch any time they want for 1 minute with any talent tree they please. For raids, its obvious that any semi progression guild will have a designated scribe to provide raid wide tomes. So, its not like arguing here means anything when its basically staying the same.
    The Costa Concordia capsizing killed 45 people. The Titanic sinking killed 1500 people. I'm sure they are EXACTLY the same thing and equally as bad, though, since they are both shipping disasters and, as we all know, the only thing that ever matters is category while extent is entirely irrelevant.

    Before it cost 0.8 gold to change each talent, now it costs much more. OP saw tomes costing 11g. On my server I saw them costing 34g (right now they are 24g each(. Those numbers are many, many times the original. That makes it different.

    You know this well, but you are stalling the argument on purpose.

    Oh, and if it were literally the same thing as before, then NONE of your previous points are valid. You can't simultaneously argue that they have restricted talent switching and they haven't restricted talent switching.

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    11g a pop is extremely cheap (even cheaper to craft as a scribe - it costs 8 pigments=4inks to craft... be serious, that's like silver pieces for each), and you can swap every talent during that 1 minute, so it's a lot more effective\fast than the previous tomes at 1 per talent.

    Profession craftable items are integral to a decent mmo experience, if buying a couple dozens of these every month bothers you... that's just ridiculous.
    They cost 0.8 gold in 6.2. At most you would have to change every talent tier at once, so 7 tomes. 7 x 0.8 = 5.6 gold to change EVERY TIER.

    These new tomes at their cheapest hover around 10 gold, and you can switch all your talents within the minute. Any less and the material cost starts cutting into profits. So even at the very worst, the 6.2 talent switching cost is far lower than the 7.0 talent switching cost.

    Math is hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    And this. By the time Legion comes out and the first raid tier is released, tomes are going to be dirt cheap, cheaper than 11g. So, just gonna buy a bunch of those and switch whenever.

    @Ameasun Are you really concerned over 11g as the added gold cost? How can anyone even complain about it being 11g, I really dont understand. Thats the current price, as I said when Legion drops the price will drop insanely low. Most likely down to 2-3g, maybe even lower. I dont really understand your argument. They arent punishing anyone. You can still swap whenever you want, for an entire minute in any talent row you want before each trash pack or boss as you please. I dont see the issue, and no, 11g being the cost of tomes is not the issue, and itll be considerably lower in Legion.
    The vendor price of the legion tome is 6.25 gold. That is the BARE MINIMUM. That is ALREADY beyond the WORST CASE cost for 6.2 talent switching

    "The price of talent switching has been doubled in the very best case, and has been multiplied several times in the average case. How can people possibly be upset??????"

    Too bad there is no crayon font to make this more understandable for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    I still didn't see an issue with talents as they were from Vanilla through Wrath. There was no point in any of these changes that they made since then.
    Talent trees were set-and-forget. You simply picked the best cookie-cutter build and never changed it unless you were changing roles, in which case you just pick the best cookie-cutter build for that role. There was 0 versatility or flexibility. The ONLY benefit to talent trees was that it gave you a small bonus at each level, so it felt like you were gaining something. The benefit of talent tiers was way more tangible than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    11g per book is cheap enough.
    It's still 13.75 times the original cost.

    I don't give a fuck how manageable the gold cost each. It's a large extra penalty on talent switching that shouldn't exist. It defeats the entire purpose of this talent system.

    I'm sure players will also manage just fine if they remove every profession from the game, or make all mounts run 10% slower, or make you run out of breath in 20 seconds rather than 180 seconds. None of those changes are game-ruining and we would manage just fine with them. They are all, however, pointless and obnoxious, just like this new talent thing.

    Maybe you should spend less time saying that the change is fine because you can live with it and more time defending the actual merit of the change (e.g. "why is it a good thing"). Then you could at least pretend that you don't worship the ground Hazzikostas walks on.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    There are simply more effective talents, something which ALWAYS happens when there is a choice.
    I don't understand why you guys think this is an argument. Yes, there were talents that were better for certain situations. GOOD!. That is EXACTLY what they should be. The talent system is there to reward knowledgeable players who are careful with their talent choices. It is not some cosmetic identity thing like transmogrification: you are talking about actual in-game bonuses and better results when picking certain builds. The entire purpose of the 5.0 talent system is to offer you a set of tools and allow you to pick the best one for the job.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    When you effectively copy/paste Hazzikostas' weak PR excuses and add no substance, that means you took that stance not because that's what you actually thought about the talent system but because Blizzard took that position and you will accept literally anything they say. This is exactly the same thing all the Blizzard zealots did over flying, and look how that ended up. Literally NO ONE thought the talent flexibility was a bad thing before Hazzikostas shat out that wall of text. I challenge anyone to actually find a post before that date of someone saying "You know what this talent system needs? LESS flexibility!". You only saw it after the post; because you people are easily swayed by Blizzard PR and let them make your opinions for you.



    Uhh, no. It's actually nothing like that, because you can't switch talents in combat. You have to choose your talents BEFORE the encounter. Having all of them in your spellbook at once is not the same thing at all.



    Holy shit. Newsflash: Some talents are better for AoE and some are better at Single Target, and you might have to use the ST ones on ST fights while you pick AoE talents on AoE fights. Stop the fucking presses. It's almost like the talent system is achieving exactly its intended purpose by encouraging the player to pick the best tool for the job. Oh the humanity! Think of the children! Better impose an enormous gold cost on that unacceptable behaviour.

    And not only that: several talent tiers are utility too. If Blizzard actually deigned to keep the talents balanced like most of them were in MoP, you would actually not have cookie cutter choices (a terrible vestigial remnant of talent trees that they have now wholesale endorsed) and you would see interesting talent choices depending on the fight. Even in late 6.2, the absolute rock bottom of class, spec, and talent balance, you STILL had tiers like the AoE damage tier for Hunters which had 3 viable talents (i.e. Glaive Toss for PvP, Powershot for single target, Barrage for AoE). You even had utility tiers like the disengage tier for hunters where all 3 were useful given situations. Once again, this is exactly the strength of the 5.0 talent system. And that's what they are trying to throw away, because scribes have got to have SOME reason to exist now that glyphs are removed (another terrible design decision which serves to take even more choice away from the player: a reoccurring theme for post-WoD WoW).



    Yes, I remember the complaints daily about how ridiculous all this fucking player choice was in MoP and WoD. Oh wait, there were literally 0 complaints about this "issue" because Blizzard pulled it out of their ass because they were mad about players complaining about the almost-equally-stupid respec cost. Once again, I challenge anyone to find any posts saying that all this FLEXIBILITY and CHOICE was bad for the game. What a laughable concept! I would almost not believe someone were actually trying to make this argument with a straight face, but then I remembered how desperately you need to defend Blizzard and it all makes sense.

    Talent choices were too flexible. My fucking god. You heard it here first. (Which is actually kind of true, since no one was ever making this argument).



    "Better start literally copy-pasting what I wrote previously otherwise my post would be so short it might look like my arguments don't have any substance".

    If you copy-paste your arguments, I will copy-paste my responses. Here it is again:

    Yes, I remember the complaints daily about how ridiculous all this fucking player choice was in MoP and WoD. Oh wait, there were literally 0 complaints about this "issue" because Blizzard pulled it out of their ass because they were mad about players complaining about the almost-equally-stupid respec cost. Once again, I challenge anyone to find any posts saying that all this FLEXIBILITY and CHOICE was bad for the game. What a laughable concept! I would almost not believe someone were actually trying to make this argument with a straight face, but then I remembered how desperately you need to defend Blizzard and it all makes sense.



    You didn't mind until Blizzard told you to.




    The Costa Concordia capsizing killed 45 people. The Titanic sinking killed 1500 people. I'm sure they are EXACTLY the same thing and equally as bad, though, since they are both shipping disasters and, as we all know, the only thing that ever matters is category while extent is entirely irrelevant.

    Before it cost 0.8 gold to change each talent, now it costs much more. OP saw tomes costing 11g. On my server I saw them costing 34g (right now they are 24g each(. Those numbers are many, many times the original. That makes it different.

    You know this well, but you are stalling the argument on purpose.

    Oh, and if it were literally the same thing as before, then NONE of your previous points are valid. You can't simultaneously argue that they have restricted talent switching and they haven't restricted talent switching.



    They cost 0.8 gold in 6.2. At most you would have to change every talent tier at once, so 7 tomes. 7 x 0.8 = 5.6 gold to change EVERY TIER.

    These new tomes at their cheapest hover around 10 gold, and you can switch all your talents within the minute. Any less and the material cost starts cutting into profits. So even at the very worst, the 6.2 talent switching cost is far lower than the 7.0 talent switching cost.

    Math is hard.



    The vendor price of the legion tome is 6.25 gold. That is the BARE MINIMUM. That is ALREADY beyond the WORST CASE cost for 6.2 talent switching

    "The price of talent switching has been doubled in the very best case, and has been multiplied several times in the average case. How can people possibly be upset??????"

    Too bad there is no crayon font to make this more understandable for you.



    Talent trees were set-and-forget. You simply picked the best cookie-cutter build and never changed it unless you were changing roles, in which case you just pick the best cookie-cutter build for that role. There was 0 versatility or flexibility. The ONLY benefit to talent trees was that it gave you a small bonus at each level, so it felt like you were gaining something. The benefit of talent tiers was way more tangible than that.



    It's still 13.75 times the original cost.

    I don't give a fuck how manageable the gold cost each. It's a large extra penalty on talent switching that shouldn't exist. It defeats the entire purpose of this talent system.

    I'm sure players will also manage just fine if they remove every profession from the game, or make all mounts run 10% slower, or make you run out of breath in 20 seconds rather than 180 seconds. None of those changes are game-ruining and we would manage just fine with them. They are all, however, pointless and obnoxious, just like this new talent thing.

    Maybe you should spend less time saying that the change is fine because you can live with it and more time defending the actual merit of the change (e.g. "why is it a good thing"). Then you could at least pretend that you don't worship the ground Hazzikostas walks on.



    I don't understand why you guys think this is an argument. Yes, there were talents that were better for certain situations. GOOD!. That is EXACTLY what they should be. The talent system is there to reward knowledgeable players who are careful with their talent choices. It is not some cosmetic identity thing like transmogrification: you are talking about actual in-game bonuses and better results when picking certain builds. The entire purpose of the 5.0 talent system is to offer you a set of tools and allow you to pick the best one for the job.
    Thank you for calling out the bullshit of people in this thread. When did anyone EVER complain about the ability to switch talents? The only thing I ever saw people complain about was the fact they missed the old talent tree system. Thier were countless threads about this. The whole point of the new system that blizz sold us on was the ability to switch talents as needed. It was the one thing people liked and blizz was pushing. Now blizz is claiming that as a problem? How or why?
    This is just yet blizz "fixing" a non problem.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by woozie21 View Post
    They won't.
    With all the nodes being yours and yours alone its fucking easy to farm and you will only need 1 or 2 plants at level 3 to get enough for a tome.
    They will be dirt cheap.
    Its the same with all other gathering prof's.
    I am sitting on 1200 leather and 750 scales at the moment on the beta from just leveling up, didn't go out and farmed once.
    They still cost way more than, say potions and they are rather expensive in the start of an expantion.

    It's still a horrible idea. Probably the worst idea Blizzard ever had.

    The main problem will be that people just will not respec, especially in pugs. It's a bad idea to reward poor play and punish thoes that actually want to do the right thing.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    They still cost way more than, say potions and they are rather expensive in the start of an expantion.

    It's still a horrible idea. Probably the worst idea Blizzard ever had.

    The main problem will be that people just will not respec, especially in pugs. It's a bad idea to reward poor play and punish thoes that actually want to do the right thing.
    A lot of people don't use potions, flasks, and food in pugs due to cost of them. Now they will use the wrong talents making them even harder for no reason. And some talents are big like a toons aoe, cc or stuns and these won't be changed too. Just because now changing is a problem?

  8. #88
    I'm not a fan of the system largely because it goes against their design philosophy in changing the talent system in the first place.

    There has always been a cookie cutter build for every class, and when efficiency is the aim for people that will never change. The new system never really changed that, instead it added more situations for specific talents to be useful.

    Originally most talents were nothing but passive stat gains. X% damage over here, X% healing over there. Blizzard found this boring so they changed it up by turning the entire talent tree into a collection of active and passive skills that ideally changed fundamental gameplay rather than just being straight damage boosts. Sure X talent might sim better than Y but the idea was to give situations where Y would be useful, too.

    With Legion they've gone back to the old philosophy with the new UI. Most talents are straight up damage boosts of a specific skill and don't alter gameplay at all, the only reason you ever switch now is because one skill is for AoE and one is for ST. That's it. PvP is (and always has been) where talents are at their most flexible.

    I would have rather Blizzard give us more active skills that change gameplay than give into the elite raiders who exploit sims to pump out maximum damage, but Bizzard don't solve problems, they solve the symptoms of problems and call it a day (see the removal of flight in WoD to "promote exploration" or the nerfed cam distance to make the game feel "more heroic" as examples). So instead what we get is a passive that makes the already-easy Demon Hunter rotation easier, because lolgameplay.

    As for giving scribes a way to make money well, glyphs alone are in a better shape since you need to keep buying them to replace the effects. If scribes needed more money gear would be the better way to do it (which they have). It's not like leatherworkers or blacksmiths ever complained about that being their main source of income (sure blacksmiths have toys and mounts now but again, could've given some of that to scribes, too). The real money makers have always been JC, Ench and Tailoring and that's not changing in Legion.
    Last edited by MrTastix; 2016-08-10 at 11:33 AM.

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