PVE set bonuses and Mythic+ dungeons

[Snuffleupagus]

People keep saying "get good" isn't a valid response, but... get good.

It's a video game. There are plenty of games where finishing on the higher levels of difficulty nets you exclusive rewards. WoW is one of them. Always has been. If it takes you a while to clear the content, then so be it. At least then we don't need to hear you bitch about lack of content (not denying WoD was lacking in this department, by the way).

Get good.

[Charge me Doctor]

I know I am in the beta, I know what drops. Doesn't change the fact it forces people to do content they don't want to do to advance or have a edge in content they do enjoy.

Pvp'ers shouldn't be forced to Pve and those wanting to do mythic+ shouldn't be forced to do raiding.

You want results of an activity but do not want to do this activity? It's like "i want to be ripped but i'm forced to go to gym to do that, pls fix".

You get raid loot when you go to raids. If you want raid loot - you have to go to raids. If you don't like raids, reward for raids is not for you then.

[Aggrophobic]

Why are you comparing people with raid gear to others with apexis gear and PvP gear in a debate about mythic dungeon gear vs raid tier gear? I could say that people in full M+ dungeon gear will double the dps of a fresh 110, it has no relevance in this debate.

Why are you suggesting that a 40% boost to you number one damage spell means nothing? It's just as silly.

People keep saying "get good" isn't a valid response, but... get good.

It's a video game. There are plenty of games where finishing on the higher levels of difficulty nets you exclusive rewards. WoW is one of them. Always has been. If it takes you a while to clear the content, then so be it. At least then we don't need to hear you bitch about lack of content (not denying WoD was lacking in this department, by the way).

Get good.

But thats not really what the post is about, is it? It's about some people prefering 5 man content over 20 man content.
The game does not have to be easier on 5 man than on 20.

I haven't actually taken part in any raid tests this beta but in WoD, alot of mythic bosses were way easier than some of the challenge mode dungeons so it's quite possible to create good 5 man content as well.

Blizzard does try to sell Legion as an expantion where you can play the game the way you want and that might be true in a way but if you want to play your class they way it's meant to be played then you need to raid.

[Charge me Doctor]

would it help to know lfr drops tier now??

I can't wait to laugh at people who drop their mythic+ gear in favor of LFR gear with set bonuses "cuz deeps".

[MasterHamster]

Either disable raiding set bonuses in Mythic+ or make the weekly cache have a high chance of tier
I very much doubt the latter because as we all know, raiders would throw a fit as they always do when they find something that is "mandatory for raiding".

But then again there's ALWAYS something to progress outside of raids (well.... barring WoD) so they're gonna complain regardless. They're gonna complain about Blood of Sargeras, crafting in general, and any task that awards AP, so we should pretty much ignore the "mandatory for raiders" argument all together. Or at least scrap that idiotic argument that "you don't need set bonuses".
Who decides what one needs in a character progression driven game? Do you also stop equipping gear after you manage to kill the last boss because you obviously don't need better gear?

Mythic+ is an alternate progression route, but even if we can argue that Mythic+15 is as hard as 20 man mythic raiding or whatever, I don't think the drops/cache will be shared. And there is an expectation for Mythic raids to drop the best gear in the game, otherwise raiding loses it's pull-factor. Problem is trinkets, and I'm assuming that high end raiding trinkets will once again be the deciding factor whether someone does 100%x damage, or 130%.

I'd much rather see Mythic+ only set bonuses where they can go a bit crazy, like in D3. However, that assumes that these set bonuses would eventually be attained by anyone semi-successful in M+, otherwise it will create a barrier, at least in the premade group finder, where you can't get the set bonus, but you need the set bonus to do M+ levels where you get the set bonus.

Kinda like when you really needed your D3 legendary gems to be rank 25 for the bonus, but you could barely clear the GRift level where you could actually upgrade your 20~+ gem.

[Kamonji]

I've only read part of the thread, but I'm surprised that no one has mentioned some of the items that come from the Suramar dungeons, especially the caster ring and the melee ring that autos deal 10% more damage. Also to include in that is the chrono neck and trinket. Think about getting those titanforged and combining them with tier sets. So to be perfectly honest, high-end raiders will be doing mythic+ in order to gear themselves for mythic raids and those that want to do mythic+ will be doing raids in all forms to better compete at mythic+.

If someone wants to compete, more than likely they will do whatever they can within their choice. What's wrong with PvE being completely involved in all sections of it?

[ShiyoKozuki]

That is just silly. The set bonuses are way stronger than anything else in the game. The average player needs that extra 20-30% just like the top players. If anything, a bad player probably needs it more.

The game is balanced around the sets and without them you're not really playing the class.

Exactly. Classes are BALANCED around their sets. FFS fire mage gives you PASSIVE bloodlust. Not letting mythic+ dungeon players obtain these by doing content they enjoy, while handing these out from the cesspool that is LFR is mind boggling.

LFR = easier than 1-10 tutorial area, gives overpowered raid tier sets.

Normal raids = easier than level to 110, gives normal tier sets.

Mythic+ dungeons = harder than LFR and normal raids, doesn't give normal tier sets reliably(rng from weekly chest isn't reliable).

This isn't 2006, raids aren't some super special secret elite thing only the best of the best can do. It's time to stop treating raid tier sets as some special reward and hand it out in every single form of content. If it can come from LFR, it damn well can come from any other content in the game, this includes world quests, PVP, mythic+ dungeons, and hell, pet battles for all I care.

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Its only a problem because classes are fixed with tier sets instead of balance changes.

Tier sets used to be 10% damage at best, now they are like 50-100%

Exactly. Yet for some reason people here think seem to be hellbent on "lol just go raid you don't need the tier set to do the content and if you think you do go raid!".

I can raid. I will easily raid. I enjoy raiding heroic difficulty raids and I WILL have these tier sets. That doesn't mean that it isn't horrific design that you're forced to raid for a reliable way to obtain gear that YOUR CLASS IS BALANCED AROUND HAVING.

Open your eyes people.

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A side of me have a problem with tier dropping in 5 man content if it becomes too easily obtainable. But say the +10 and above where gear drops don't increase in quality could award a chance of raid loot. That would still mean you have to put in a lot of work to get them while allowing them to drop without disturbing the balance.

Now this might sound like gating it to some people, and yes that's exactly what it is. It locks the tier pieces behind the hardest content the way it has always been while you can still attain it asuming you put in the same amount of effort.

LFR and normal mode raids give tier sets

LFR AND NORMAL MODE RAIDS ARE FAR FROM BEING THE "HARDEST CONTENT IN THE GAME".

HFC normal mode was easier than leveling, it gave RAID TIER SETS.

Tier sets being from "hardest content in the game" hasn't been true pre-dragonsoul CAT.

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I know I am in the beta, I know what drops. Doesn't change the fact it forces people to do content they don't want to do to advance or have a edge in content they do enjoy.

Pvp'ers shouldn't be forced to Pve and those wanting to do mythic+ shouldn't be forced to do raiding.

Exactly this.
Forcing people into content they don't want to do not only ruins the content for them, but EVERYONE around them. They ruin the content for themselves because it isn't fun and they hate it, and they ruin it for other people who ACTUALLY WANT TO DO SAID CONTENT because they'll be all "rush rush gogogogo" and super rude/irritated about doing it so they'll make it not fun for the people who want to be there.

LET PEOPLE DO THE CONTENT THEY WANT TO DO AND STOP TRYING TO FORCE PEOPLE TO DO THINGS THEY DON'T WANT TO DO BECAUSE "PARTICIPATION NUMBERS" BLIZZARD

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its raid loot though....

and the whole "not everyone is good at the game so the system needs to help the players that are less skilled" is just awful

the fact people want tier for less effort than before is shitty

FFS, LFR gives raid tier sets.
LFR is essentially afkable content.
Giving out raid tier sets from LFR but not content that actually requires you to pull your weight makes absolutely no sense. Are people completely delusional about raid tier sets? Do they think LFR is actually challenging content and thus should reward it? Do they think normal mode raids are actually challenging content?

LFR giving raid tier sets is LITERALLY, as you put it:

"and the whole "not everyone is good at the game so the system needs to help the players that are less skilled" is just awful

the fact people want tier for less effort than before is shitty"



Wake up call - it's 2016. Raids being the hardest content in the game stopped being a thing at the end of CAT when they added LFR and dragon soul.

Mythic + dungeons are massively, MASSIVELY more difficult than LFR. Going by your logic, mythic dungeons should reward gear equal to heroic raids, and yes, I agree, they should

Gear matters too much now. Gear is more important than player skill 99.99% of the time. Gear should be handed out like candy for doing ANYTHING in the game now honestly. Locking it behind anything is horrible. If someone plays a lot, regardless of what the content is, pet battles, pvp, open world, 5 man dungeons, raids, etc, they should have within 10% of power level of someone who only does mythic raiding. Everyone should be able to get stronger and be powerful, not just mythic raiders. Gear matters too much for that design philosophy to fly anymore.


Raid or die is why WOD failed miserably. We can't have 2 expansions of raid or die or this game will never recover.

[psyquest]

I dont think people understood what mythic+ was for. It is made for people that dont have time to raid to be able to get gear good enough that there is a progression for them. It is most definitely not like challenge mode used to be. People whined enough about it that blizz took take away. Anyone able to get gear from anywhere in game to help their progression in mythic + can do it, including getting gear from raiding. When I see the crying in this thread about it, I dont understand sorry.

There is no ladder in mythic+ and if there was one it will be filled with top pve players anyway from top guilds and they will have the gear etc from mythic raiding, which is fine since it also takes skill to get 20 man to clear mythic raids.

get your gear and have fun.

[Enitzu]

Sets won't be until Nighthold anyway. People on the beta are already clearing Mythic +10 without sets and in normal raid gear, ie 850 ilvl. So if you think you need sets to get the best possible loot out of Mythic+ then maybe you should be working on playing your class better or finding better people to group with.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Sets won't be until Nighthold anyway. People on the beta are already clearing Mythic +10 without sets and in normal raid gear, ie 850 ilvl. So if you think you need sets to get the best possible loot out of Mythic+ then maybe you should be working on playing your class better or finding better people to group with.

That literally doesn't matter and is a childish attitude.

[Enitzu]

That literally doesn't matter and is a childish attitude.

That very well maybe but asking for the same things in Mythic Dungeons that come from raids which are generally harder outside of LFR is just as bad. Raiders won't even have sets for 6ish months but you want to ask for set bonuses in Mythic+?

[ShiyoKozuki]

That very well maybe but asking for the same things in Mythic Dungeons that come from raids which are generally harder outside of LFR is just as bad. Raiders won't even have sets for 6ish months but you want to ask for set bonuses in Mythic+?

LFR gives raid tier sets.
LFR is easier than mythics.
Normal mode raids are easier than mythics.
The "raids are the mots difficult content and should reward the best gear" ship sailed during CAT. It's no longer true.

[Revamp Man]

That literally doesn't matter and is a childish attitude.

but the argument is sets are needed for mythic+ progression

the fact its being cleared without tier proves that is false

if you want to beat the challenge get better

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LFR gives raid tier sets.
LFR is easier than mythics.
Normal mode raids are easier than mythics.
The "raids are the mots difficult content and should reward the best gear" ship sailed during CAT. It's no longer true.

unless they tune legion lfr down its actually more difficult tahn the mythic+ i have experienced though thats only +5
mythic guldan>>>>>>mythic+15 dungeons

[satimy]

Another problem this is going to cause is LFG..

"LFM for Mythic +6 must have full raid tier"

If people don't think this will be required for mythic's then they are clueless.

People won't pug hard content, they never do

[Aggrophobic]

That very well maybe but asking for the same things in Mythic Dungeons that come from raids which are generally harder outside of LFR is just as bad. Raiders won't even have sets for 6ish months but you want to ask for set bonuses in Mythic+?

Normal and heroic is hard now?
The fact that you get better upgrades from LFR, normal and heroic compared to any mythic+ is a bit silly and makes mythic+ pointless just like dungeons always has been.

That was the system they were trying to fix but right now, it's just more of the same.

[satimy]

Yep and as long as they provide such a huge boost there should be other ways to get them. I would be ok with mythic or mythic+ dungeons dropping tokens u trade in for gear like how u could at the end of Wrath.

1. They just shouldn't provide the power creep that they do
2. They should make the 2 pieces drop from world bosses or tokens. Make shoulders and chest drop in heroic/mythic and helm mythic only

[Brynk]

Gear matters too much now. Gear is more important than player skill 99.99% of the time. Gear should be handed out like candy for doing ANYTHING in the game now honestly. Locking it behind anything is horrible. If someone plays a lot, regardless of what the content is, pet battles, pvp, open world, 5 man dungeons, raids, etc, they should have within 10% of power level of someone who only does mythic raiding. Everyone should be able to get stronger and be powerful, not just mythic raiders. Gear matters too much for that design philosophy to fly anymore.

At risk of just taking this way too seriously, you're saying that if I do pet battles, I should be given raiding rewards? Do you understand what you're suggesting?

It's the same as saying that because a player completes a mythic raid, they should also have just as many/powerful battle pets as someone who focuses on that content exclusively. It makes no sense. You can't expect to get things from content you don't complete. There are a few mythic+ trinkets that are better than the raiding trinkets. That doesn't mean I should get them for raiding, and not completing mythic+ content.

LFR giving tier bonuses is pretty janky. The tier item level will hinder it to some extent, but it's still janky. Nobody in their right mind will use a tier piece that's 20 item levels lower just because of the bonus barring extreme circumstances. Pure stats will stop that.

[GwiGwi]

Exactly. Classes are BALANCED around their sets. FFS fire mage gives you PASSIVE bloodlust. Not letting mythic+ dungeon players obtain these by doing content they enjoy, while handing these out from the cesspool that is LFR is mind boggling.

LFR = easier than 1-10 tutorial area, gives overpowered raid tier sets.

Normal raids = easier than level to 110, gives normal tier sets.

Mythic+ dungeons = harder than LFR and normal raids, doesn't give normal tier sets reliably(rng from weekly chest isn't reliable).

This isn't 2006, raids aren't some super special secret elite thing only the best of the best can do. It's time to stop treating raid tier sets as some special reward and hand it out in every single form of content. If it can come from LFR, it damn well can come from any other content in the game, this includes world quests, PVP, mythic+ dungeons, and hell, pet battles for all I care.

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Exactly. Yet for some reason people here think seem to be hellbent on "lol just go raid you don't need the tier set to do the content and if you think you do go raid!".

I can raid. I will easily raid. I enjoy raiding heroic difficulty raids and I WILL have these tier sets. That doesn't mean that it isn't horrific design that you're forced to raid for a reliable way to obtain gear that YOUR CLASS IS BALANCED AROUND HAVING.

Open your eyes people.

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LFR and normal mode raids give tier sets

LFR AND NORMAL MODE RAIDS ARE FAR FROM BEING THE "HARDEST CONTENT IN THE GAME".

HFC normal mode was easier than leveling, it gave RAID TIER SETS.

Tier sets being from "hardest content in the game" hasn't been true pre-dragonsoul CAT.

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Exactly this.
Forcing people into content they don't want to do not only ruins the content for them, but EVERYONE around them. They ruin the content for themselves because it isn't fun and they hate it, and they ruin it for other people who ACTUALLY WANT TO DO SAID CONTENT because they'll be all "rush rush gogogogo" and super rude/irritated about doing it so they'll make it not fun for the people who want to be there.

LET PEOPLE DO THE CONTENT THEY WANT TO DO AND STOP TRYING TO FORCE PEOPLE TO DO THINGS THEY DON'T WANT TO DO BECAUSE "PARTICIPATION NUMBERS" BLIZZARD

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FFS, LFR gives raid tier sets.
LFR is essentially afkable content.
Giving out raid tier sets from LFR but not content that actually requires you to pull your weight makes absolutely no sense. Are people completely delusional about raid tier sets? Do they think LFR is actually challenging content and thus should reward it? Do they think normal mode raids are actually challenging content?

LFR giving raid tier sets is LITERALLY, as you put it:

"and the whole "not everyone is good at the game so the system needs to help the players that are less skilled" is just awful

the fact people want tier for less effort than before is shitty"



Wake up call - it's 2016. Raids being the hardest content in the game stopped being a thing at the end of CAT when they added LFR and dragon soul.

Mythic + dungeons are massively, MASSIVELY more difficult than LFR. Going by your logic, mythic dungeons should reward gear equal to heroic raids, and yes, I agree, they should

Gear matters too much now. Gear is more important than player skill 99.99% of the time. Gear should be handed out like candy for doing ANYTHING in the game now honestly. Locking it behind anything is horrible. If someone plays a lot, regardless of what the content is, pet battles, pvp, open world, 5 man dungeons, raids, etc, they should have within 10% of power level of someone who only does mythic raiding. Everyone should be able to get stronger and be powerful, not just mythic raiders. Gear matters too much for that design philosophy to fly anymore.


Raid or die is why WOD failed miserably. We can't have 2 expansions of raid or die or this game will never recover.

- Classes are not balance around tier sets, the tier sets are balanced around each other. By your logic I guess Blizzard doesn't intend classes to be balanced in Emerald Nightmare because there are no tier sets
- The mage 4 piece is no longer "passive bloodlust", get the correct up to date information before you pass it on as fact
- Like it or not, Blizzard considers LFR a form of raiding, thus it provides "RAID TIER SETS"
- If Blizzard puts a reliable way in mythic+ dungeons to get tier sets, you will have the exact same outcry from raiders. You will be "forcing" (I love the use of this word on this forum btw) raiders to go into content they don't want to do (mythic+ dungeons) to farm for tier sets.

I'm glad people like you don't design this game, and please stop throwing around % you made up like they are facts. It's simply hyperbole.

[ShiyoKozuki]

At risk of just taking this way too seriously, you're saying that if I do pet battles, I should be given raiding rewards? Do you understand what you're suggesting?

No, not raid gear. But because of how COMPLETELY out of control power creep and gear is now, as long as you're actively playing the game, regardless of what content you're doing, you should at least be within 10% of the power of a fully geared mythic raider. This includes even casual fluff content like pet battles.

10% is enough of a power increase to make mythic geared players stronger and it to be worth doing, but not such a huge gap that it's completely out of control(as wod currently is).

It's the same as saying that because a player completes a mythic raid, they should also have just as many/powerful battle pets as someone who focuses on that content exclusively. It makes no sense. You can't expect to get things from content you don't complete. There are a few mythic+ trinkets that are better than the raiding trinkets. That doesn't mean I should get them for raiding, and not completing mythic+ content.

It's not the same as those things at all though. Gear and power creep is too far out of control to the point that everyone needs to be able to easily obtain a decent ilvl/within 10% of mythic raiders if they put enough time into any content in the game - Pet battles, PVP, world PVE, mythic dungeons, LFR, etc.

LFR giving tier bonuses is pretty janky. The tier item level will hinder it to some extent, but it's still janky. Nobody in their right mind will use a tier piece that's 20 item levels lower just because of the bonus barring extreme circumstances. Pure stats will stop that.

I'm assuming you've literally played WOD for 0 hours of play time?
20 ilvls = 20% increase in stats.
Some classes have 2 and 4 piece bonuses that give them over a 50% DPS increase. In WOD, for example, rets 2 piece adds a substantial amount of damage and arms warrior gains a substantial damage bonus from it's 2/4 piece to the point that 20 ilvls mean nothing compared to it's 2 and 4 piece sets.

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- Classes are not balance around tier sets, the tier sets

I'm guessing you also didn't play WOD at all. Arms warrior went from "shit" to "top tier DPS" by adding it's 2 and 4 piece set in HFC. The set literally made it a top tier DPS instead of bottom of the barrel. Ret paladin is kinda similar but I don't remember if it was top tier, but it went from SHIT tier to good. People have already done the math of normal HFC raid tier set vs +30 ilvls of mystic gear and normal HFC sets were massively better for a lot of classes, so yeah.

- The mage 4 piece is no longer "passive bloodlust", get the correct up to date information before you pass it on as fact

You are correct, my information is outdated. Thank for for correcting me, next time try doing it in a most respectable manner.

Hot Streak has a 25% chance to also grant you 20% haste for 10 sec.

This is still insane, and basically 100% uptime on 20% haste. Completely broken.

I'm glad people like you don't design this game, and please stop throwing around % you made up like they are facts. It's simply hyperbole.

Good ad hominem attacks

[Imnick]

As th set bonuses are obtainable in LFR, which is tragically easy queued content, I don't see there being much issue in people who mostly want to do Mythic dungeons obtaining them.
The game still isn't designed with the idea that you should just do one thing exclusively.