Legion: Elemental Specific

[Lucrece]

Well, banning people for saying something mean (but true) does sound alot like SJW-ish behavior.

What the hell do you think is the purpose of moderators? To be virtual wallpaper while someone runs rampant on a thread trolling and insulting people for most of the pages that exist on the thread?

Who the hell are you to gauge whether someone's "retarded" or "useless", when you haven't even met them or played with them?

Since when is civil discourse and forum etiquette SJW behavior or some optional feature you would be slighted for being made to adhere to?

Guess you must be really oppressed in real life because you can't go to work or social gatherings and call people useless cunts or apologist retards without repercussions.

[FalcFalcFalc]

Yes I have beta. Yes, we are talking about performance at 110.

If Elemental does end up "middle of the pack" dps-wise, people just won't play elemental. The spec wasn't bad in WoD, if you look at dps. It's bad at everything else (soaking, survivability, mobility, raidcooldowns etc.). That hasn't changed. That's the issue. We lost mobility and survivability for a bad version of Stampeding Roar, I somehow don't think that will make us more viable if we'll do less DPS than hunters and mages while having less utility.

You're saying we shouldnt discuss balance (dps) because there might be a patch before release? That's the stupidest thing I've read on page 115 (sadly can't beat previous pages, sorry)

That point is fair, we do not bring much to a raid and therefore should be doing more DPS. Understandable and I agree. In a hardcore world/US race sort of environment, completely understandable to feel that way. Also, talking balance before the raid tuning has been done is a waste. They could completely screw over outliers like Unholy for instance, you never know. If we get toned down again, the nail will be in the coffin. But we can always get a nice buff.

But you miss the fact where we have VERY good target switching and ST burst. Both of which I can argue is an important part of Mythic 'utility' and something that we were completely missing in WoD. We clamored for target switching and we got it and people are finding other things to yell about and forgetting we got at least some of the things we wanted.

[effs]

I wish some of our talents aren't sucky. And isn't Ascend/EM/AS the ones to go for on most fights to burn down an important add or on every ST fight? If so, I'm getting tired of that CD (ascendance).

[Odintdk]

LOL. Social Healer and UCantdoShit are both banned now. This is spectacular. A ton of shitty Shamans who have no idea what they are talking about, are butthurt because those two don't adhere to the rules of their safe space. Don't worry guys, if you keep reporting the top Shamans in this forum it'll definitely make it a better place. Keep the reports flying boys.

Seriously though, you should all be reporting guys like miffy and lucrece. They provide nothing of substance but instead only argue with their ill informed idea's. If not, you'll see no respectable Shamans here, and come legion, both Miffy and lucrece will be the first to comment on your advice thread about this great talent setup that got them world 2000 normal hogger. SPOILER ALERT: It's crap.

As some one who used this site to learn Elemental this expansion, I can't help but feel it may be completely useless come legion. None of the good Shamans are here anymore because they are forced to argue with the clueless. Earthshrine isnt much better because its filled with pages upon pages of "Should I use ES while in Ascendance". The format is just terrible for discussion because of the shit you have to sift through.

After using the shaman forums for 7 years now (mostly reading, specifically because of the reasons you just posted), i can promise you its futile to even bother replying to players of Miffy's caliber and mentality, let alone reporting them. It will simply never work, and you'll just end up with brain cells burnt as a direct result.

[Algoma0]

Also, talking balance before the raid tuning has been done is a waste.

I'd argue that a balance change regarding Elemental is more unlikely than likely. There is always be a possibility of balancechanges, that doesn't mean we can't talk about balance. I think tuning is pretty much done at this point. The expansion releases in 3 weeks.

But you miss the fact where we have VERY good target switching and ST burst. Both of which I can argue is an important part of Mythic 'utility' and something that we were completely missing in WoD. We clamored for target switching and we got it and people are finding other things to yell about and forgetting we got at least some of the things we wanted.

Yes, target-switching is alot better now. Not sure that's enough of a positive change to warrant a raidspot. We'll see.

Another point i wanted to bring up:
You said elemental was fine during BRF (or, "wasn't too bad), I disagree, even if this is a legion thread. Elemental sucked in BRF, for all the important bosses and especially Blackhand. The only reason I was even getting a raid spot was because everyone else was worse than me or had low attendance. If we were to plan a new roster for BRF, eleshaman wouldn't be in it. The issue isn't really that elemental is/was unplayable in top-progression guilds. It's that the alternative would've been, unarguably, better.

And another thing: I believe I haven't even stated this, but others have: Our talents suck, they are one of the worst talent-setups in the game right now. That's pretty bad, too.

[Deleted]

/slowclap
The irony.

Announcing on Earthshrine that you're going to troll in this thread makes you awesome.

Elemental actually wasn't too bad in BRF. However, if the last time you played the spec was over a year ago then your opinion is your own but your views aren't relevant. I don't know if you even have Beta. We are talking about performance at 110.

Are we talking from a 6 months in PoV or actual, real progression in the first weeks? Because on Blast Furnace and Blackhand Elemental wasnt even considered due to lack of burst damage. These were the only two fights which blocked guilds. Sustained was better than in HFC, due to no legendary ring and better set bonus.

People who have done extensive testing with the spec on Beta (including me) don't think the spec is that far off from being good. And please re-read my post as I did mention there are glaring issues with the spec as well as that most likely top guilds will not take Elemental. However, I believe this to be more of a lasting stigma that persisted throughout WoD rather than an indication that the spec is mostly and utterly absolute shit. Try reading my post again so you can understand the meaning of what I was trying to convey.

Funny, because when asking these "people", including you, on Earthshrine to present their logs or experience as on why they think Elemental isnt in a bad spot they dont give clear answers. The mentioned discussion escaleted quickly and Earthshrine members resorted to insults and trolling.

No one is saying that Elemental generally bad. People wish just wish this spec to perform better because they'd like to play it during real progression. Making this spec better wouldnt hurt people who finish progression 6 months after. This is why saying Elemental is fine as it is, is ignorant.

My experience with the spec raiding in HFC is in a 2 day guild that killed Archimonde in December. Yes with upgrades and about a half maxed ring. I am not blind to the shortcomings of the spec but for me, I find it fun (at 110) and I don't find it to be utter and complete shit (at 110) as most everyone else on this thread thinks. I never defended the spec in HFC, it was pretty awful but I found it fun sometimes. My guild let me go down on Kilrogg and I enjoyed Xhul which made it tolerable.

Good for you. But why do you want to deny this "fun" for people who progress differently than you? Is there a specific reason as on why Elemental shouldnt be made better to be considered a real choice for cutting edge progression? This is the common mistake dev team apologists (not you.. as of yet) make.

Also, why are we even talking about how the spec has been in HFC? I believe the title says "Legion: Elemental Specific". Who gives a shit about HFC, WoD is over. I never said the spec is amazing with no issues and does everything perfectly. I am merely pointing out that there are positives and negatives about the spec when all anyone wants to see are the negatives. But you can ask people all over the place, the people you should be asking are Wil, Starsha, Doublejay, Notes, Sadozai and the countless others who have put a ton of time into Beta. Binkenstein has swapped but still has done a lot of math for us. And honestly, we don't even know where the spec will end up before raiding as there will most likely be a day one tuning patch as well as a tuning patch a couple weeks after raids open so all of this arguing is just a waste of energy in the first place.

Who, who, who and who? Wil, the guy which only contribution on this thread was flaming and trolling? And we're only discussing HFC because you chosed to insult Algoma0s creditibily based on the gear he worn on wowprogress.

All of the future hotfixes wont feature mechanical changes, compansation for removed SWG/SR or fix synergy between most abilities, talents and traits

No one is saying the spec is amazing and most of us are saying it's mid-pack right now. But don't negate the positives of the spec just because we weren't that great in HFC. It's Legion now, we do some things really well and we still have some glaring problems. But I believe the positives outweigh the negatives, at least for me. If people feel different, THAT'S COOL TOO.

You probably didnt call it amazing. But we've to deal with other people, who literally dismiss concerns about totem projection pathing and call it working as intended. And all your words on Earthshrine are just contributing to this type of very special people.

What the hell do you think is the purpose of moderators? To be virtual wallpaper while someone runs rampant on a thread trolling and insulting people for most of the pages that exist on the thread?

Who the hell are you to gauge whether someone's "retarded" or "useless", when you haven't even met them or played with them?

Since when is civil discourse and forum etiquette SJW behavior or some optional feature you would be slighted for being made to adhere to?

Guess you must be really oppressed in real life because you can't go to work or social gatherings and call people useless cunts or apologist retards without repercussions.

I and most other people can perfectly judge you or anyone else by reading the shit you're writing day in and day out. You not only post uselessly, but also misinform new people who seek information. This is trolling, and people usually get infracted for trolling.

[Prankish]

Please, whatever issues you have with feminists or SJW, go work them out somewhere or see a therapist about it. This is not a thread for you to go around projecting your grievances about not being able to call people retards and shitters with impunity.

If communicating with basic decency with other people is too much to ask of you, just refrain from public discussion.

Nice, calling me a dick and saying I need to seek professional help is very "communicating with basic decency" of you. Your Politically correct stance is simply wrong. Not all opinions are equal and yours is among the lowest I've ever come across.

I personally read more than I contribute because I like to absorb a lot of the ideas people have. With that in mind I need to weed through the trash to make sure what I follow actually makes me a better Shaman or simply makes me think about the Shaman class in a better way. I don't give a crap about how polite or reasonable a person is because Ill always evaluate them based on what they bring to the conversation. If they have a conflicting idea or opinion they better have something to back it up. New players won't be able to make that distinction as easily and may accidentally think your opinion is actually worth something.

In the year I've read these forums, Lucrece, you have written absolutely nothing of substance that can be used to support any sort of argument on any topic that has ever arose on the Shaman forums. You partake in every conversation, butt into any argument you can, and comment on anything that could violate your safe space so I clearly have a large sample size. Any arguments against you are met with "my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's" so you can never be wrong.

Guess you must be really oppressed in real life because you can't go to work or social gatherings and call people useless cunts or apologist retards without repercussions.

I don't think forums are a reasonable comparison to real life social gatherings. If we were to make that comparison, you are the equivalent of the person who walks around spouting random irrelevant or simply wrong crap to people who already know you as "that guy". Everyone smile's but isn't sure how to respond without being impolite. Eventually, when they realize there isn't something medically wrong with you, they will ask you to leave them alone.

In real life you have the awareness to leave these people alone right? You should do that now too.

[Algoma0]

What the hell do you think is the purpose of moderators? To be virtual wallpaper while someone runs rampant on a thread trolling and insulting people for most of the pages that exist on the thread?

Who the hell are you to gauge whether someone's "retarded" or "useless", when you haven't even met them or played with them?

Since when is civil discourse and forum etiquette SJW behavior or some optional feature you would be slighted for being made to adhere to?

Guess you must be really oppressed in real life because you can't go to work or social gatherings and call people useless cunts or apologist retards without repercussions.

If you say stupid things, people will think you're stupid. If those people are talking with honesty, they will call you stupid. Calling someone stupid for the things they've said shouldn't be a bannable offense. I don't even know how you can argue against that.

Calling me "really oppressed in real life" on the other has nothing to do with what I've said and is, to be blunt, a stupid thing to say.

[Lucrece]

If you say stupid things, people will think you're stupid. If those people are talking with honesty, they will call you stupid. Calling someone stupid for the things they've said shouldn't be a bannable offense. I don't even know how you can argue against that.

Calling me "really oppressed in real life" on the other has nothing to do with what I've said and is, to be blunt, a stupid thing to say.

Calling people "retarded" is a bannable offense. But be cavalier all you like, that won't stop moderation from cleaning up this thread and handing well deserved infractions with people who confuse being blunt with being opinionated and rude.

[Deleted]

Calling people "retarded" is a bannable offense. But be cavalier all you like, that won't stop moderation from cleaning up this thread and handing well deserved infractions with people who confuse being blunt with being opinionated and rude.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/faq.php?faq=forumrules

- Contribute in a constructive way
- Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters
- Making non-constructive posts

and my fav
- Posting meme or troll images, text, or videos; "cool story bro", "u mad", "10/10", captioned images, etc...

You post since a year or so, and not one of your posts was constructive.

[Algoma0]

A large number of specs ended up received enormous buffs (and Elemental's wasn't even close to the biggest), because Blizzard decided to just buff everyone else instead of nerfing the outliers into the ground. Either way, the spec did end up fine.

You know, for all your bitching I've never actually seen you post any data to back up your doom-and-gloom claims. If Elemental is as terrible as you claim, then where are the logs showing it?

This is the post Ucandosht was talking about when he said "I don't understand if people just act retarded, or... The spec did end up fine? Did you even play WoD?"

If that's not a retarded post, I don't know what is. Calling people retarded for acting retarded shouldn't be bannable. I couldn't find the post Socialhealer was infracted for, but it's probably as ridiculous as this one.

[Jotaux]

And then people wonder why there's really no one left for elemental shamans. All the top shamans will warn of how broken the spec is and the less capable will chase them away. Unfortunately I am a masochist and merely switched from elemental to enhance for legion.

[Prankish]

Calling people "retarded" is a bannable offense. But be cavalier all you like, that won't stop moderation from cleaning up this thread and handing well deserved infractions with people who confuse being blunt with being opinionated and rude.

Absolutely astounding. You lack the awareness to realize you are a plague on this forum and simply wait for SJW police to come and save you from all the people around you. How many posts have you reported? Maybe 90% of the posts on the last few pages? You're the problem man.

P.S We can also report every post we don't agree with. You're the only one pathetic enough to do it.

[Deleted]

This is the post Ucandosht was talking about when he said "I don't understand if people just act retarded, or... The spec did end up fine? Did you even play WoD?"

If that's not a retarded post, I don't know what is. Calling people retarded for acting retarded shouldn't be bannable. I couldn't find the post Socialhealer was infracted for, but it's probably as ridiculous as this one.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post41774552

Socialhealer was infracted for this. A totally harmless post, but MMO-Champ Mods strike again.

And then people wonder why there's really no one left for elemental shamans. All the top shamans will warn of how broken the spec is and the less capable will chase them away. Unfortunately I am a masochist and merely switched from elemental to enhance for legion.

And I'm thankful for every warning. The dev team promised a rework after the fiasco at the beginning of WoD, and it didnt happen. They reworked countless other specs for the Xth time instead.

[Kralljin]

Last time was 2 weeks ago.

Meh, felt a bit longer, not that it actually matters.

Both are top 10 Shamans

Never seen their characters either to be honest, while they really like to ride the "You're not hardcore, you have no clue" train.

So there's that.

[Pandalishus]

This is what I don't understand about this forum/discussion. If you are not (let's expand your "world first" point) playing top100, balance doesn't matter at all. No one is saying you can't play elemental at world rank 500. You always could, you can even bring 3 elementals and no mages in that bracket. So if we are talking about balance, we must talk about top 100 during progression.

No, I'd argue that Top 100 is NOT the best place to look for balance, because at that point, "min-maxing" has reached a point that if a 20-DK team gives a 0.5% advantage, that's going to be the logical choice. Balance at that level is impossible because it thoroughly wrecks balance at all lower levels. Is Ele balanced for the Top 1% of players? No. But if Elemental's fine for basically 99% of the playerbase, then we must not make balance at Top 100 during progression the focus. If you're Top 100, you don't bring Ele. That's it. That has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with what happens when you play at the very tippy top (gear imbalances, player skill, better hardware, countless hours spent playing, etc). it's like saying it's unbalanced that Invincible didn't drop on my ICC25H kill last night because it did for 0.5% of the player base. This is what I don't understand about this forum/discussion. (Almost?) No one here raids at that level, so why are people losing their shit over it? Because it ruins that fantasy that they might one day git gud enough to be sponsored to play WoW, but their Elemental shaman is holding them back from world glory? It's ridiculous. If your signature doesn't link to your Top 100 World main, then calm your tits. Blizzard's not balancing for Mythic World Firsts, nor should (or can) they.

Never seen their characters either to be honest, while they really like to ride the "You're not hardcore, you have no clue" train.

It's VERY unlikely they're Top 10 shamans, unless he meant "in their respective guilds."

[Prankish]

Never seen their characters either to be honest, since they are they really like to ride the "You're not hardcore, you have no clue" train.

So there's that.

Ucandoshit has been around since the totemspot days and he was more liberal with disclosing his characters back then. Not so much now for whatever reason.

Socialhealer is just socialhealer on logs. Every time I see Social I think of this old Veteran who has seen so many shitty Shaman patches that he wakes up in the middle of the night with night terrors of people like Lucrece being hired to the Elemental balance team.

Both of them pop in and out of the top 10 during/shortly after progress.

[Deleted]

No, I'd argue that Top 100 is NOT the best place to look for balance, because at that point, "min-maxing" has reached a point that if a 20-DK team gives a 0.5% advantage, that's going to be the logical choice. Balance at that level is impossible because it thoroughly wrecks balance at all lower levels. Is Ele balanced for the Top 1% of players? No. But if Elemental's fine for basically 99% of the playerbase, then we must not make balance at Top 100 during progression the focus. If you're Top 100, you don't bring Ele. That's it. That has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with what happens when you play at the very tippy top (gear imbalances, player skill, better hardware, countless hours spent playing, etc). it's like saying it's unbalanced that Invincible didn't drop on my ICC25H kill last night because it did for 0.5% of the player base. This is what I don't understand about this forum/discussion. (Almost?) No one here raids at that level, so why are people losing their shit over it? Because it ruins that fantasy that they might one day git gud enough to be sponsored to play WoW, but their Elemental shaman is holding them back from world glory? It's ridiculous. If your signature doesn't link to your Top 100 World main, then calm your tits. Blizzard's not balancing for Mythic World Firsts, nor should (or can) they.

Yeah, and in which case do we see a spec which performs great during progression and in turn perferms terrible for the other 99%? Yeah, right - in NO case.

So take your own advice and calm your tits. People just want to play their favourite class in whatever play style they've chosen.

It's VERY unlikely they're Top 10 shamans, unless he meant "in their respective guilds."

Lucrecree on a second account? Just like Prankish is saying, every Shaman who posts activily on Shaman boards knows who those two are.

[Prankish]

No, I'd argue that Top 100 is NOT the best place to look for balance, because at that point, "min-maxing" has reached a point that if a 20-DK team gives a 0.5% advantage, that's going to be the logical choice. Balance at that level is impossible because it thoroughly wrecks balance at all lower levels. Is Ele balanced for the Top 1% of players? No. But if Elemental's fine for basically 99% of the playerbase, then we must not make balance at Top 100 during progression the focus. If you're Top 100, you don't bring Ele. That's it. That has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with what happens when you play at the very tippy top (gear imbalances, player skill, better hardware, countless hours spent playing, etc). it's like saying it's unbalanced that Invincible didn't drop on my ICC25H kill last night because it did for 0.5% of the player base. This is what I don't understand about this forum/discussion. (Almost?) No one here raids at that level, so why are people losing their shit over it? Because it ruins that fantasy that they might one day git gud enough to be sponsored to play WoW, but their Elemental shaman is holding them back from world glory? It's ridiculous. If your signature doesn't link to your Top 100 World main, then calm your tits. Blizzard's not balancing for Mythic World Firsts, nor should (or can) they.


It's VERY unlikely they're Top 10 shamans, unless he meant "in their respective guilds."

Do you mean top 100 guild or top 100 Elemental Shamans? Because if it's top 100 Elemental Shamans then there's plenty of them on the forums. I don't know about top 100 guild but I know a lot are in top 200 guilds here.

Ucandoshit and Social are top 10 Elemental Shamans in the world on warcraft logs on occasion. There are plenty of good Shamans here......

I was even ranked top 10 for 2 weeks after my guild down M archi and I'm not even close to the best Ele on here. I stopped seriously raiding shortly after that so I never maintained. Don't underestimate some people on here. There are some fantastic Shamans here that don't make it blatantly obvious who they are.

If you're wondering who im referring to then just go though this thread and see who is banned. If they are banned then it's probably a top Shaman who was arguing with a 12/13N Shaman who thinks he gods gift to this world.

[Algoma0]

Alright, let's unpack this ridiculous post.

No, I'd argue that Top 100 is NOT the best place to look for balance, because at that point, "min-maxing" has reached a point that if a 20-DK team gives a 0.5% advantage, that's going to be the logical choice.

Yes. I actually think that's my argument? If class A is strictly better than class B, that's the definition if "imbalance". That's bad. That's what the dev's should be trying to avoid.

Balance at that level is impossible because it thoroughly wrecks balance at all lower levels.

What does that mean, it wrecks balance at all lower levels? Are you saying people who aren't top 100 wouldn't have the skill to perform? The game is getting easier and easier, and the spec itself is getting easier, too. If balance at the top level were perfect, and the class was easy to play, the balance at lower levels would be perfect, too.

Is Ele balanced for the Top 1% of players? No. [...] If you're Top 100, you don't bring Ele. That's it. That has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with what happens when you play at the very tippy top (gear imbalances, player skill, better hardware, countless hours spent playing, etc).

I don't even know what to say to this. It has everything to do with balance. Gear imbalances, player skill, hardware, time spent play no role in chosing your class for progression. What are you talking about?

it's like saying it's unbalanced that Invincible didn't drop on my ICC25H kill last night because it did for 0.5% of the player base.

What? No. The dropchance of Invincibly is not balanced - on purpose. Are you saying that classes aren't balances on purpose? What kind of analogy is this? Anyway, it's very stupid and doesn't support your claim at all.

This is what I don't understand about this forum/discussion. (Almost?) No one here raids at that level, so why are people losing their shit over it?

I've said this like 5 times on this forum. I'll continue saying it: If you are not raiding Top100, you should not care about balance. Class balance and your raidsetup barely affect your raid, your raidspot, or your ranking. You don't raid top100 and dont care about balance? What the fuck are you doing in a discussion about balance for top 100 progression?