I don't get why people think Maiev's a bitch but Illidan is not

[Mehrunes]

Just your utter lack of self-awareness.

Coming from you it's like throwing meteors in houses made of condensed air. Because rocks and glass houses don't cut it.

[Enthralled]

OT - also cos we really like Illidan. I read WotA, then looked at WC3 videos or him, and played the cata WoE instance, every time he shows up he is portrayed as really cool and heroic, and gets a lot of crap for it.

I'll grant you maybe the other two, but as for the book(s), we must have read two different Richard Knaak trilogies, because in the one I read, Illidan comes off as a whiny, arrogant, immature little bitch (and yes dudes can be bitches!) next to his brother, Malfurion the Messiah *cue Hallelujah chorus*.

[Candy Cough]

Illidan is hugely popular and very well liked by a lot of people, a lot, like me you really kinda feel for the guy when you see him, he's tough, he's badass, with a highborne like air of cockiness but in the good way. He really tries his best, but gets so much shit because his methods are not conventional - and we love him for daring to take the risk he does and having the guts to pull it off, he actually succeeds in handling the fel without it corrupting his soul, and teaches others too. that is unprecedented.

Yet we feel for him because, his people don't get it, he's like a few steps in front of them on the demon front, but they're too affronted to be able to understand. I understand them too, I don't hate them for it either, it's just all sad, they can't nor should they all go in that direction, Fel is really dangerous and addictive and really harmful too, only those that can and are completely determined should do so, the others should stay well care, and master the things they are good at. but yet we see him having to sacrifice the very acceptance, love and comfort of his people he really cares a lot about to do this task.

Illidan after incarceration says he no longer carres for his people, and heads to outland, but yet, everything he does is to stop the legion from destroying his people. It's a typical response from a person who's given up so much to help another, and then been rejected by that other, he says that, but because he genuinely loves that other, he continues to fight sacrificing himself. it's such beautiful contrast with the power hungry, cocky self assured air he has to him, that you can't help but like it, cos the cockiness is not that annoying type, and the guy is shown to genuinely and very very sincerely and deeply care about saving his world and his people.


how can any body say Illidan gets a free pass when he died .. dude he paid the ultimate price - remember, BT?

Also, remember in the first place Illidan was actually always trying to save us, his people and Azeroth, and endured a lot of crap and suffering to take on fel, resist it corrupting his soul and still do what he did.

You act like you've never thought or felt that acquiring more power is a good thing, so you can do good with it. Remember this has always been Illidan's primary motive for power, and just cos he's also enjoyed it, doesn't make him evil.

They incarcerated him for 10k years.. now that's quite a sentence for killing 2 people - but we know they did it cos they thought he was working for the Legion and did not realize he killed those people because of what he was going through in becoming what he was,- but Tyrande at least wasn't convinced he was traitor because she sets him free to fight the very legion, trusting that he won't run off to them, and off course, he fights them, and goes to them, but again he's playing them.

now the night elves think he's betrayed again, but Tyrande was spot on, Illlidan does help defeat the Legion a second time, and continues to do so on Outland. You could say he goes to outland to get away from us as much as to mount his own separate fight against them.

The truth of this comes out when ofc, he rebels against Kil'jaeden, and we know that Illidan NEVER intended to be a part of the legion or join their cause but was successful in even hoodwinking Sargeras.

That's Illidan for you.

He did get a free pass, even after all the terrible things he did in outland clueless fans come and yell: "There was no reason to attack Illidan, he did nothing wrong" etc, and then when he "dies" he gets resurrect out of fanservice.

Oh boo fucking hoo, he endured crap, what about all the lives he has made into crap for his mad quest for power?

the 10K sentence wasnt for killing 2 people, it was for stealing from the well, the well which had earlier almost destroyed the entire world. I see that as a fair judgement.

Illidian's methods may be effective as far as destryoing the Legion is concerned, but it will be a phyrric victory at best.

In the end, my problem is with someone said early in this post, no one cares what he does, he can slaughter thousands of people and no one bats an eye, and in the end as someone said, I'll be it will be; "Even though I made so many suffer, without me we would never stand here today! I do not deserve to be punished!"

A better story as said would again be "My crimes made this day happen, but they cannot go unpunished, so I am willing to go back into prison" or something

In the end his story ends up with jelousy and wanting to exceed his brother in everywhere and eventually failing, his methods of doing so however is rather evil if you'd ask me. In all honesty, his quests seems to be just as much as getting power, and Tyrande's affection, as fighting the burning legion, kinda reminds me of a spoiled brat.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm rather aware of the OP's history and of all I read about her. Drag me to the same level if you desire but unlike the OP, I still have to create countless threads focused on relentlessly bitching about the characters I don't like.

Why hell are you on this topic if you don't like my whining then? Get out

[Mace]

He did get a free pass, even after all the terrible things he did in outland clueless fans come and yell: "There was no reason to attack Illidan, he did nothing wrong" etc, and then when he "dies" he gets resurrect out of fanservice.

Oh boo fucking hoo, he endured crap, what about all the lives he has made into crap for his mad quest for power?

the 10K sentence wasnt for killing 2 people, it was for stealing from the well, the well which had earlier almost destroyed the entire world. I see that as a fair judgement.

Illidian's methods may be effective as far as destryoing the Legion is concerned, but it will be a phyrric victory at best.

In the end, my problem is with someone said early in this post, no one cares what he does, he can slaughter thousands of people and no one bats an eye, and in the end as someone said, I'll be it will be; "Even though I made so many suffer, without me we would never stand here today! I do not deserve to be punished!"

A better story as said would again be "My crimes made this day happen, but they cannot go unpunished, so I am willing to go back into prison" or something

In the end his story ends up with jelousy and wanting to exceed his brother in everywhere and eventually failing, his methods of doing so however is rather evil if you'd ask me. In all honesty, his quests seems to be just as much as getting power, and Tyrande's affection, as fighting the burning legion, kinda reminds me of a spoiled brat.

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He died dude. He paid !! and you know what's been happening to him since right - he's been on the run in the twisting nether - whatever crimes he commited in trying to save everyone, he certainly has paid. He certainly paid many times over via his incarceration for 10k years, and that was an imprisonment for doing something that he didn't do - he didn't set up the new well to call the legion back. He did kill some guards when he lost control, but according to custom, the injured party had the right to determine his fate, and he was spared death for that crime, and imprisoned instead, he long since served out that sentence, but was kept because they thought he was trying to call the legion back.

After freedom, he continues to work to achieve his vendetta against the legion, and does some wrong things which he rightly deserved to pay for thos - but do not forget that Illidan does pay for those.. he dies. His operations are completely dismantled, although that hurts US far more than we realize cos those operations were targeted at destroying the legion. Yet it's all gone he pays.

In the meantime, he learns some humility and gains some perspective. So you are saying because a person can find redemption, and learn well from mistakes, and despite his good intentions and pure heart to do rightly, he should continue to be hated and suffer even after paying the ultimate price? that's just blind vengeance man.

[Zulkhan]

Why hell are you on this topic if you don't like my whining then? Get out

I never said I don't like your whining, I actually do. But I'll still call it for what it is and it's better people to be aware with who they're dealing with.

[Combatbutler]

Maiev is Illidan's mirror, both are obsessed with their goal and will go to any length to achieve it. Both are quite bitchy, but considering their respective perspectives you can see where they come from.

[Mace]

Maiev is Illidan's mirror, both are obsessed with their goal and will go to any length to achieve it. Both are quite bitchy, but considering their respective perspectives you can see where they come from.

well Illidan is more of a dick, but in a way that has its charm, Maiev is plain out bitch, she is a bit more likeable when you meet her in Legion tho. Now that she has been forced to work with demon hunters and done the impossible now worked with them.. i wonder if discovering her home (Suramar ) survived has anything to do with it, and survied because of magic too.

[Combatbutler]

well Illidan is more of a dick, but in a way that has its charm, Maiev is plain out bitch, she is a bit more likeable when you meet her in Legion tho. Now that she has been forced to work with demon hunters and done the impossible now worked with them.. i wonder if discovering her home (Suramar ) survived has anything to do with it, and survied because of magic too.

She doesn't like magic and most likely never will, seeing suruamar like it is will most likely disgust her to the core.

[Sovich]

Maiev is my favorite warcraft character.

[Zasriel]

Thread-derail:

I'd still totally play a Warden if the class was available.

[Mace]

She doesn't like magic and most likely never will, seeing suruamar like it is will most likely disgust her to the core.

it's possible, but change is incoming for Maiev.. she really got lost after Illidan hunt finished, went off, and has found herself enough. - but the story of that hasn't been told.

Up till when she interacts with khadgar, she still seems very anti-magic.. but what is the source of that...? Anti-demon i can understand, but anti-magic..?

it all ties in with what happened during the sundering - she blames magic as much as the legion -- but why? becuase she lost everything.. what did she lose.. SURAMAR - her home her family and loved ones.

but now she is about to discover, that she didn't lose them, Suramar was saved, and saved by magic too, and her family survives. Sure anyone will be disgusted at the nightfallen withered, mindless creatures, magic warped, but that has it's own story, and it might seriously affect her when she finds out her family and friends survived, and it was thanks to magic and the nightwell

she has finally had to accept that demon hunters aren't the same as the Legion, they genuinely want it destoryed at all costs, all of this has got to penetrate all that pain and change her somewhat.. at least redirect her hatred from her nightborne kin (possibly family members) and demon hunters who are actually fighting the legion too.

It's certainly worth exploring this transformation, it would be nice, to see Maiev's bitchiness turn from her arcane elven kin and DHs to actually the Legion.


When is she going to realize she's in love with Illidan.... gosh that would be something !!!! Illidan and Maiev! And what if Tyrande still has feelings... ! No one has explored how night elves behave in this situation. Always doing "the right" thing, but would they let emotions and love casue friction...would Illidan have feelings for Maiev? would Tyrande fall for Illidan - i'm sure they'd write that Mother Moon gave her a glimpse of his future. and she has slept with him

[Combatbutler]

it's possible, but change is incoming for Maiev.. she really got lost after Illidan hunt finished, went off, and has found herself enough. - but the story of that hasn't been told.

Up till when she interacts with khadgar, she still seems very anti-magic.. but what is the source of that...? Anti-demon i can understand, but anti-magic..?

it all ties in with what happened during the sundering - she blames magic as much as the legion -- but why? becuase she lost everything.. what did she lose.. SURAMAR - her home her family and loved ones.

but now she is about to discover, that she didn't lose them, Suramar was saved, and saved by magic too, and her family survives. Sure anyone will be disgusted at the nightfallen withered, mindless creatures, magic warped, but that has it's own story, and it might seriously affect her when she finds out her family and friends survived, and it was thanks to magic and the nightwell

she has finally had to accept that demon hunters aren't the same as the Legion, they genuinely want it destoryed at all costs, all of this has got to penetrate all that pain and change her somewhat.. at least redirect her hatred from her nightborne kin (possibly family members) and demon hunters who are actually fighting the legion too.

It's certainly worth exploring this transformation, it would be nice, to see Maiev's bitchiness turn from her arcane elven kin and DHs to actually the Legion.


When is she going to realize she's in love with Illidan.... gosh that would be something !!!! Illidan and Maiev! And what if Tyrande still has feelings... ! No one has explored how night elves behave in this situation. Always doing "the right" thing, but would they let emotions and love casue friction...would Illidan have feelings for Maiev? would Tyrande fall for Illidan - i'm sure they'd write that Mother Moon gave her a glimpse of his future. and she has slept with him

It wasn't merely about suramar though, it was about the entire world being sundered, sure suramar survived but Maiev is no rational individual, never was and never will be, she is driven by emotion and her own personal values, she utterly loathes highborne and their descendants, which is why she tried to kill them in Darnassus and didn't even consider the only faction in shattrath that was actually willing to help her against Illidan, the scryers.

Despite the fact that she desperately needed help to defeat Illidan, her one real purpose in life and that is telling quite something. I can see her using the demon hunters,magi and highborne as tools against the legion but nothing more nothing less. Maiev is too driven by hatred, it basically sustains her.

[Vexfu]

Illidan is hugely popular and very well liked by a lot of people, a lot, like me you really kinda feel for the guy when you see him, he's tough, he's badass, with a highborne like air of cockiness but in the good way. He really tries his best, but gets so much shit because his methods are not conventional - and we love him for daring to take the risk he does and having the guts to pull it off, he actually succeeds in handling the fel without it corrupting his soul, and teaches others too. that is unprecedented.

Yet we feel for him because, his people don't get it, he's like a few steps in front of them on the demon front, but they're too affronted to be able to understand. I understand them too, I don't hate them for it either, it's just all sad, they can't nor should they all go in that direction, Fel is really dangerous and addictive and really harmful too, only those that can and are completely determined should do so, the others should stay well care, and master the things they are good at. but yet we see him having to sacrifice the very acceptance, love and comfort of his people he really cares a lot about to do this task.

Illidan after incarceration says he no longer carres for his people, and heads to outland, but yet, everything he does is to stop the legion from destroying his people. It's a typical response from a person who's given up so much to help another, and then been rejected by that other, he says that, but because he genuinely loves that other, he continues to fight sacrificing himself. it's such beautiful contrast with the power hungry, cocky self assured air he has to him, that you can't help but like it, cos the cockiness is not that annoying type, and the guy is shown to genuinely and very very sincerely and deeply care about saving his world and his people.


how can any body say Illidan gets a free pass when he died .. dude he paid the ultimate price - remember, BT?

Also, remember in the first place Illidan was actually always trying to save us, his people and Azeroth, and endured a lot of crap and suffering to take on fel, resist it corrupting his soul and still do what he did.

You act like you've never thought or felt that acquiring more power is a good thing, so you can do good with it. Remember this has always been Illidan's primary motive for power, and just cos he's also enjoyed it, doesn't make him evil.

They incarcerated him for 10k years.. now that's quite a sentence for killing 2 people - but we know they did it cos they thought he was working for the Legion and did not realize he killed those people because of what he was going through in becoming what he was,- but Tyrande at least wasn't convinced he was traitor because she sets him free to fight the very legion, trusting that he won't run off to them, and off course, he fights them, and goes to them, but again he's playing them.

now the night elves think he's betrayed again, but Tyrande was spot on, Illlidan does help defeat the Legion a second time, and continues to do so on Outland. You could say he goes to outland to get away from us as much as to mount his own separate fight against them.

The truth of this comes out when ofc, he rebels against Kil'jaeden, and we know that Illidan NEVER intended to be a part of the legion or join their cause but was successful in even hoodwinking Sargeras.

That's Illidan for you.

He died dude. He paid !! and you know what's been happening to him since right - he's been on the run in the twisting nether - whatever crimes he commited in trying to save everyone, he certainly has paid. He certainly paid many times over via his incarceration for 10k years, and that was an imprisonment for doing something that he didn't do - he didn't set up the new well to call the legion back. He did kill some guards when he lost control, but according to custom, the injured party had the right to determine his fate, and he was spared death for that crime, and imprisoned instead, he long since served out that sentence, but was kept because they thought he was trying to call the legion back.

After freedom, he continues to work to achieve his vendetta against the legion, and does some wrong things which he rightly deserved to pay for thos - but do not forget that Illidan does pay for those.. he dies. His operations are completely dismantled, although that hurts US far more than we realize cos those operations were targeted at destroying the legion. Yet it's all gone he pays.

In the meantime, he learns some humility and gains some perspective. So you are saying because a person can find redemption, and learn well from mistakes, and despite his good intentions and pure heart to do rightly, he should continue to be hated and suffer even after paying the ultimate price? that's just blind vengeance man.

I think this is brilliantly said, better than I could have expressed Illidans story before Legion lore, his redemption story could be well done. Like.... wow well said....

In fact I think you just switched my DH's 2nd back to Kayn from Altruis, well played sir.

[Enthralled]

When is she going to realize she's in love with Illidan.... gosh that would be something !!!! Illidan and Maiev! And what if Tyrande still has feelings... ! No one has explored how night elves behave in this situation. Always doing "the right" thing, but would they let emotions and love casue friction...would Illidan have feelings for Maiev? would Tyrande fall for Illidan - i'm sure they'd write that Mother Moon gave her a glimpse of his future. and she has slept with him

Tyrande never slept with Illidan, Mace. That "leak" from Tides of War was fake. I've got the book, and that's not in it; moreover, Christie Golden said it was fake.

[Krazzorx]

Maiev doesn't really have an overriding goal. At least there's meaning to what Illidan is doing.

Let's say Maiev captures Illidan again. Yay? What does that accomplish. She seems to not care about the Burning Legion that much.

Illidan at least wants to destroy it. So that's a worthy end to chase.

[Drekker17]

They both are assholes. People have always liked Illidan, I don't know why, he is prideful, jealous, and obsessed with power. The thing is people dismiss Illidans evil as trying to do the right thing, which Maiev was trying to do too, she just happened to be wrong like all of us. Illidan is a bad guy, don't be surprised if later we find out Illidan was manipulated by the Old Gods to kill the only enemy that could destroy them and Void Lords. Strangely, Sargeras and Illidans stories are similar, both create armies in evil ways to destroy a more evil threat. That would be hilarious if future lore was like, "Sargeras was always right, his army was the only one that could defeat the Void Lords."

[Enthralled]

That would be hilarious if future lore was like, "Sargeras was always right, his army was the only one that could defeat the Void Lords."

Except his goal has never been to build an army to defeat the Void Lords. His goal is to root out and extinguish all life on all worlds to make sure there is no possible chance that a planet with a world-soul can exist. That is because a Void-corrupted Titan would essentially mean the end of the universe.

Once he is sure that all life has been done away with, he intends to rule over the destroyed universe as it is.

[ReVnX]

Except his goal has never been to build an army to defeat the Void Lords. His goal is to root out and extinguish all life on all worlds to make sure there is no possible chance that a planet with a world-soul can exist. That is because a Void-corrupted Titan would essentially mean the end of the universe.

Once he is sure that all life has been done away with, he intends to rule over the destroyed universe as it is.

Which has always baffled me since I read Chronicles. What's the difference between a universe destroyed by the Void Lords and a universe destroyed by Sargeras?

[Qualia]

Which has always baffled me since I read Chronicles. What's the difference between a universe destroyed by the Void Lords and a universe destroyed by Sargeras?

Because in Sargeras' theory, if life could bloom out of nothing before, it can appear out of nothing again. Even if he is to destroy everything in the universe, it might not remain empty forever. Life might one day appear again - this time untainted, he'd protect it with more care and remove any corruption from the Void before they can spread. He is pretty much trying to press the reset button because he concluded that the corruption had spread too far.

In comparison, if a Void Titan is born, he'd be (according to the Nathrezim) pretty much undefeatable. He'd then consume everything to bring every creations under the Void Lords' will. The entire universe will be consumed or turned into a twisted void-corrupted hell forever, even if new life are born. An eternally corrupted hell, basically.

[Combatbutler]

Because in Sargeras' theory, if life could bloom out of nothing before, it can appear out of nothing again. Even if he is to destroy everything in the universe, it might not remain empty forever. Life might one day appear again - this time untainted, he'd protect it with more care and remove any corruption from the Void before they can spread. He is pretty much trying to press the reset button because he concluded that the corruption had spread too far.

In comparison, if a Void Titan is born, he'd be (according to the Nathrezim) pretty much undefeatable. He'd then consume everything to bring every creations under the Void Lords' will. The entire universe will be consumed or turned into a twisted void-corrupted hell forever, even if new life are born. An eternally corrupted hell, basically.

This

Which has always baffled me since I read Chronicles. What's the difference between a universe destroyed by the Void Lords and a universe destroyed by Sargeras?

Just Imagine the idea of Algalon reorigination on a universal scale