PSA: You want to use Fel Rush even without Momentum.

[chooi]

Actually it's not. This is the same broken mechanic that monks had for all of WoD. The old chi torpedo is pretty much exactly the same as FR. It was bad then, and it's bad now with its new name. Why do you think they took the damage out of torpedo? Because no one, or the vast majority, hated using their mobility tools to do damage and not what they are for, mobility. Maybe you are ok with a Blizzard taking a bad mechanic out of one class and recycling it into another, but a lot of people aren't.

It's not a broken mechanic because it works absolutely fine. It's just you not liking that playstyle trying to grasp for 'arguments' against it.

Face the reality: Blizzard made very clear from the very beginning that using mobility for damage is an essential part of (Havoc) DHs. So, probably Havoc DH indeed just is not the right spec for you. There are a lot of other melee specs with very different gameplay that don't focus on using mobility for more damage. You have a choice: stop complaining and pick those that suit you better.

[mitre27]

It's not a broken mechanic because it works absolutely fine. It's just you not liking that playstyle trying to grasp for 'arguments' against it.

Face the reality: Blizzard made very clear from the very beginning that using mobility for damage is an essential part of (Havoc) DHs. So, probably Havoc DH indeed just is not the right spec for you. There are a lot of other melee specs with very different gameplay that don't focus on using mobility for more damage. You have a choice: stop complaining and pick those that suit you better.

From the beginning? I don't remember this being mentioned in any announcement ever, they were said to be the most mobile and that's about it, and if it wasn't for those two talents you wouldn't use fel rush as a dps skill, blizzard just need to tune the talents correctly, especially the first tier, momentum isn't far ahead in its tier.

Momentum is a clunky playstyle and will almost certainly get changed some time in the future IMHO.

[Sticx]

It's not a broken mechanic because it works absolutely fine. It's just you not liking that playstyle trying to grasp for 'arguments' against it.

Face the reality: Blizzard made very clear from the very beginning that using mobility for damage is an essential part of (Havoc) DHs. So, probably Havoc DH indeed just is not the right spec for you. There are a lot of other melee specs with very different gameplay that don't focus on using mobility for more damage. You have a choice: stop complaining and pick those that suit you better.

If it worked absolutely fine they would have left it with monks and never changed it. The fact that they did tells me not many people liked using chi torpedo in their damage rotation, just like not many DH's will like using FR in their rotation either. You don't go and design a class that was made for the masses in mind with a core part of their kit with something that has been shown to be disliked. It will definitely get changed, but probably not until they get a revamp before the next expansion at this point.

[Deleted]

From the beginning? I don't remember this being mentioned in any announcement ever

Really? On the first announcement and gameplay showcase of the Demon Hunter Fel Rush inflicted damage and gave you fury without a talent needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhMfIMqjHwY

"wants to travel, wants to go through and deal damage" he says about Fel Rush...

[Vanyali]

If it worked absolutely fine they would have left it with monks and never changed it. The fact that they did tells me not many people liked using chi torpedo in their damage rotation, just like not many DH's will like using FR in their rotation either. You don't go and design a class that was made for the masses in mind with a core part of their kit with something that has been shown to be disliked. It will definitely get changed, but probably not until they get a revamp before the next expansion at this point.

Comparing it to monks is ignoring the fact of talents and why monks set piece (hint: not talents) was broken.

Additionally, monks used it only with a PvP set (in PvE) and had to animation cancel it, while also doing funny things to get double the hits iirc. It wasn't because "people didn't like it" - if we had only talents, sets, and abilities "people liked" we'd be down to three for each class. The idea that something was removed because somewhere someone didn't like it is laughable.

That's a pretty bad comparison to a class that is built around using fel rush often.

[Deleted]

If it worked absolutely fine they would have left it with monks and never changed it. The fact that they did tells me not many people liked using chi torpedo in their damage rotation, just like not many DH's will like using FR in their rotation either. You don't go and design a class that was made for the masses in mind with a core part of their kit with something that has been shown to be disliked. It will definitely get changed, but probably not until they get a revamp before the next expansion at this point.

I think the most issue here is that it isnt clear what they meant with "mobile". Mobile out of combat to get from A to B faster? or could it be that they meant "in combat mobility, fighting style" ! (at least for momentum build)

From what I see its the last one, and I really like it that way. I WANT to Fel Rush through enemies, eyebeam and blade dance to finally Rush back the way I came with the second FR. It reminds me on special moves from other games like the Dash from Vergil in DMC for example.

I dont find it clunky, quite the opposite, I just dont want another class staying in front of the boss and never move. And guys cmon...FR is on a very low CD, u will have enough charges for rushing from A to B. Yeah its not like Roll or flying serpent kick, but I dont think it ever should be.

The only thing I really dont like (clunky) is what players created with the VR madness sideway jumps through hitboxes to never leave melee range. Yeah I see that its the "best" for numbers right now...but should it not be intended to disengage backwards like a hunter and charge back into fight immediately? (FELBLADE) ! That would be what I want, not complicated, but fluid,hectic gameplay. I hope they will get it work this way, since I really believe that was the initially way Blizz wanted it to be. (for the momentum build)

[Sticx]

I think the most issue here is that it isnt clear what they meant with "mobile". Mobile out of combat to get from A to B faster? or could it be that they meant "in combat mobility, fighting style" ! (at least for momentum build)

From what I see its the last one, and I really like it that way. I WANT to Fel Rush through enemies, eyebeam and blade dance to finally Rush back the way I came with the second FR. It reminds me on special moves from other games like the Dash from Vergil in DMC for example.

I dont find it clunky, quite the opposite, I just dont want another class staying in front of the boss and never move. And guys cmon...FR is on a very low CD, u will have enough charges for rushing from A to B. Yeah its not like Roll or flying serpent kick, but I dont think it ever should be.

The only thing I really dont like (clunky) is what players created with the VR madness sideway jumps through hitboxes to never leave melee range. Yeah I see that its the "best" for numbers right now...but should it not be intended to disengage backwards like a hunter and charge back into fight immediately? (FELBLADE) ! That would be what I want, not complicated, but fluid,hectic gameplay. I hope they will get it work this way, since I really believe that was the initially way Blizz wanted it to be. (for the momentum build)

The problem with using your FR's above like you mentioned means now you have nothing at all if you have to move, turning yourself from what was described as unrivaled mobility into something now which is one of the most immobile Melee in the game. All we have left is what ever passive run speed our mastery gives us, which as of right now no one will be stacking unless quite a bit changes. Sure, maybe a FR comes off cool down and you can use it to get back in range faster, but now you are going to drop your momentum uptime and cut your damage. So your choice is to cut your damage by running back to the boss, or cut your damage by using a FR to get back in range but lower your momentum uptime.

FB would definitely make the class feel a lot better, but unfortunately, the devs think watching for that proc is too complicated to be baseline for the class. But tediously planning your FR paths to avoid dashing through fire, or using awkward camera turning to VR back through mobs is just fine.

[Natrii]

I prefer tanking, but the monetum playstyle is really fun. Though I can see one mistake getting us killed very quickly.

[mitre27]

Really? On the first announcement and gameplay showcase of the Demon Hunter Fel Rush inflicted damage and gave you fury without a talent needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhMfIMqjHwY

"wants to travel, wants to go through and deal damage" he says about Fel Rush...

Looks like you're right, though i can't see them keeping it like this, whether the devs like it or not won't matter if the overall playerbase don't, it's annoying that without this, the "rotation" is too basic, and with it, it's clunky as fuck.

[Deleted]

If you TAKE fel mastery, you can't complain about being forced to use FR; taking FM assumes you want to use it.

As I said, if you want to do optimal damage and take it complaining that you're using your talents is weird af.

I would disagree. I always try to be optiminal and pick the talents that are optiminal regardless if I like them. I did complain (seraphim as a paladin tank for example) but I put up with it because for some fights it was just better! I get more annoyed by playing lesser talents than what I do playing with talents I do not like but are the optiminal ones.

Complaining about a talent you hate and being constructive about it is very normal (especially if that talent is BiS). It's all feedback!

But more so on topic, I do love momentum/Fel mastery and I do hope, for the sake of others, it is not too far ahead in numbers. Don't want to alienate people from the new class!

- - - Updated - - -

Actually it's not. This is the same broken mechanic that monks had for all of WoD. The old chi torpedo is pretty much exactly the same as FR. It was bad then, and it's bad now with its new name. Why do you think they took the damage out of torpedo? Because no one, or the vast majority, hated using their mobility tools to do damage and not what they are for, mobility. Maybe you are ok with a Blizzard taking a bad mechanic out of one class and recycling it into another, but a lot of people aren't.

Actually I liked it as a monk and I like current DH momentum/ Fel mastery. I am a strong believer that not every class should be made so everyone likes it. Same for talents and abilities. WoW has a lot of classes to pick from, something for everyone. You say broken, but it seems fine to me. What would you do differently then?

[Fel733l]

DHs are meant to be a class designed around doing damage with their mobility. I thought that was apparent from the start?

Oh and can you people please stop with the "Oh no, if I use FR for damage then I won't have a charge of Fel Rush to get out of X mechanic or get to Y target quickly!" ..Have you played the spec at all? Fel rush has a 10 second cooldown. It's constantly up. You will have time to use it for mobility when you *NEED* it and not just for damage.

Havoc is actually a lot of fun with Momentum/FM. Fel Rush having an actual role in our damage is really fun too, because it actually adds to the class theme of being very mobile.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

And in addition to that short 10 sec cooldown, you have two charges of Fel Rush so you can hold onto a charge for movement if you need to while keeping the CD rolling.

[Mordrathor]

I don't think that anyone [reasonable] is asking Blizzard to change the core mechanics of the DH. The complaint I've seen the most of, and completely agree with, is that Fel Mastery and Momentum are the correct talent choices for every single type of fight (except for Momentum on Star Auger, from what I hear). This is just boring and poor balance. Fel Mastery should be the top DPS talent for certain styles of fights, while Chaos Cleave and Blind Fury should put up better numbers on others. The same goes for Momentum and Fel Eruption + Nemesis.

I played a Blood DK for all of WoD, and I never had a reason to change my talent points after I placed them - the correct build was set in stone. I enjoyed the style and that was just fine with me overall, but sometimes I wished I could try out something different without it being objectively inferior to the standard build in every situation. I'd like to see some actual variety with Legion talent choices, beyond the usual "This is the raider talent, this is the filthy casual who can't play correctly talent, and this is the PvP talent."

[Deleted]

I don't think that anyone [reasonable] is asking Blizzard to change the core mechanics of the DH. The complaint I've seen the most of, and completely agree with, is that Fel Mastery and Momentum are the correct talent choices for every single type of fight (except for Momentum on Star Auger, from what I hear). This is just boring and poor balance. Fel Mastery should be the top DPS talent for certain styles of fights, while Chaos Cleave and Blind Fury should put up better numbers on others. The same goes for Momentum and Fel Eruption + Nemesis.

I played a Blood DK for all of WoD, and I never had a reason to change my talent points after I placed them - the correct build was set in stone. I enjoyed the style and that was just fine with me overall, but sometimes I wished I could try out something different without it being objectively inferior to the standard build in every situation. I'd like to see some actual variety with Legion talent choices, beyond the usual "This is the raider talent, this is the filthy casual who can't play correctly talent, and this is the PvP talent."

I mean Momentum is more "complex" than Nemesis/FE so it's only right that it's ahead?

[Mordrathor]

I mean Momentum is more "complex" than Nemesis/FE so it's only right that it's ahead?

I don't like that reasoning because it doesn't give any real choice or variety to those of us who like to player a class as best we can. It's either "play this exact talent setup all the time, or take a DPS loss to mix things up a bit". Bleh. This is purely anecdotal, but during my HFC progression the DPS differences between the good and bad players were more a result of the bad players dying to mechanics rather than the good players picking optimal talents and having better mastery of their rotation. I think that there are enough ways for good players to distinguish themselves that we don't need to create a more complicated spec that's superior in every situation to give them one more way to stand out.

[Xaenne]

I mean Momentum is more "complex" than Nemesis/FE so it's only right that it's ahead?

Complexity does not mean that it should parse higher. That is asinine. Talents should never be acknowledged as a "One True Talent" while the others are seen as sub-optimal. Playing the Fel Mastery / Momentum build just did not seem fun. I understand that damage through mobility is what they are trying to accomplish, but the environmental design and boss mechanic design is extremely punishing for that build.

If that is the build that stays top (which it is definitely looking to do), Blizzard is going against the entirety of their design philosophy for Demon Hunters in the beginning, which is to make a class easy and simple enough for anyone to get into. No one is going to want to play with a Demon Hunter if all they see is them dying or wasting time by Fel Rushing even just *slightly* poorly. It's going to create a negative stigma around the class when damage through mobility is involved. I guarantee it.

[Deleted]

Talents should never be acknowledged as a "One True Talent" while the others are seen as sub-optimal.

It's not like DHs are the only ones with talents that are superior to the others in their tier...

[Xaenne]

It's not like DHs are the only ones with talents that are superior to the others in their tier...

Except we are specifically on a Demon Hunter forum. In this context, we are solely talking about Demon Hunters.

If you want to argue that point, sure. No class should have a "One True Talent". It sucks. It's not fun. People like having choice. When something is excelling way beyond every other choice, you are forced to choose that option to be competitive - even if that means the playstyle becomes vastly more unfun.

Take Arms Warriors, for example (since you like to bring up other classes): They have two different rotational playstyles that utilize almost every single talent in some way, shape or form. That, right there, is fucking amazing. However, when you look at Havoc Demon Hunters, you are looking at being forced into Fel Mastery + Momentum on anything more than 1 target. There is literally no better option. There is nothing that competes EVEN CLOSE. That is not fun. That is not intuitive.

That is not a dissuasion towards Fel Rush / Vengeful Retreat as a playstyle. Rather, it's a concern that people want to prioritize other moves OVER Fel Rush / Vengeful Retreat but will be punished in doing so. People want to be able to use different spells as a main priority. I personally love Fel Eruption and Eye Beam - spell animations are awesome and they feel fun. However, it's very rare to be able talent those abilities to be more impactful and competitive. That is a problem with design.

It's hard to explain: I understand that Blizzard wanted to introduce Demon Hunters as this class that is damage through mobility (and man, currently they have it down). However, they are making EVERY other aspect of the Demon Hunter feel so much less impactful it's insane. People like Metamorphing into a Demon to get burst. People like shooting a laser out of their eyes and causing things to burst out of the ground. There are other things that bring a class or specialization identity, yet those other items feel to be on the backburner.

[Deleted]

Take Arms Warriors, for example (since you like to bring up other classes):

Whoa what's with the tone, dude? I was making a comparison to show that our class isn't unique in this problem. I already agree with you that blizzard should go with the plan they originally had for the "new" talent system, where you didn't have a cookie cutter build. No need to get all passive aggressive about it man. Chill.

[Varlak]

I'm all for complexity. Momentum/using Fel Rush for damage is just tedious and unenjoyable. It's not that it's just tedious-and-not-really-complex, it also serves to limit the ways in which talents can add proper complexity to the Demon Hunter rotation.

Nice shitpost though!

QFT. Momentum build isn't really complex. Its just a boring mechanics IMO and even if the dev claim otherwise I bet you that by the end of legion they will back pedal on momentum.

Also I agree that your post was rude for nothing.

Personaly I prefer reactive rotation to static one. And momentum is static, its not complicated to use 2 skill on CD.