1. #7981
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    But .... Jaylock himself has told us that Legion will have more world content that anyone can finish. Ever!
    Heh.

    Heh heh Heh.

  2. #7982
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Treasure finding should not be required for classes that aren't nancies, treasure finding is like pet battling its niche and stupid to me but it's cool with me that it's in the game. It should not be a requirement, as its niche and stupid to a lot of people
    Fair point...that part of the Pathfinder achievement was by far the most frustrating and ridiculous. I understand why it's part of the achievement, since they're counting that as "world content" but it doesn't make it any less frustrating, annoying or stupid. Hopefully they'll replace or augment the way we get flying in Legion with world quests or something.

  3. #7983
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Bad outdoor design - isn't about bottlenecks only. I know, that Blizzard will do many things to improve situations with bottlenecking in Legion. Crutches and supports, but still better than nothing. It's about lack of immersion. I just can't immerse myself into game, when it's felt like a stupid farm-fest. I mean, Wow becomes lesser and lesser RPG and turns more and more into arcade with every subsequent xpack.

    If you want to know my opinion about power of my character - I don't care about it that much. As I've already said, I don't care, what kind of gear to collect - Epics or just grey crap. I simply need goal to achieve.

    Wildstar? It has nice leveling, but literally 0 casual endgame content - 5ppls and Raids are too hard for PUGs, most outdoor content - is group one. I.e. it's the same, as Vanilla/TBC - you know, that "I'm at level cap. WHAT NOW?" feeling.
    Well I can't argue about Wildstar. That being said I loved the difficulty of the dungeons. My artifical/fake feeling of accomplishment was much more significant when completing one of their dungeons. But to each there own.

    Though I suggest at least giving legion a shot. I think it's really good. The goal is usually a fantastic story arc that I want to get through. The zones were a real treat to traverse as well. Many of the quest NPCs had fun little audio that they would have outside of the quest text as well. Not to mention the design was quite beautiful. You may not like it, and if you decide to not try it, I get that, especially with the track record of things you really dislike. I also feel like the end game is better in Legion considerably. World Quests maybe reskinned daily quests but they are numerous enough to rarely get repeats and there are ton of them from crafting, to pet battles to your normal quest fair. It's odd because the feeling of looking at your world quest interface alone gives a much more defined sense of a goal in mind with such a defined starting point. It felt really good even though I knew it was basically just dailies.

    I get the idea of progress and having a goal, honestly this is where GW fell flat to me though. If gear wasn't my goal what was? At max level your options are Dungeons/Fractals (that take a while to get used to without dedicated roles btw), PvP or World Boss stuff. Perhaps that has changed now, I am not sure. I do know they regularly release content patches with different zones that are generally chalked full of the stuff that GW2 is famous for (little jumping puzzles, some PvE stuff, and other games like races and what not). I know a lot of it is story driven as well. Though again, if you want story, SWtOR is a better option I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Fair point...that part of the Pathfinder achievement was by far the most frustrating and ridiculous. I understand why it's part of the achievement, since they're counting that as "world content" but it doesn't make it any less frustrating, annoying or stupid. Hopefully they'll replace or augment the way we get flying in Legion with world quests or something.
    Most people I know share this opinion. Personally it didn't bother me as much as the daily gated rep grinding. I hate it when I have a goal but can only work so much toward it in a day. Though to be entirely honest its definitely better that those exist for all my RL relationships lol. Yay for lack of self control.

  4. #7984
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    It did die when BC came out but it wasn't due to flying. First and foremost, in vanilla World PvP for a while was the only kind of PvP to had. BGs didn't exist and the only way to get your PvP on was to create it. Specifically the battle between South Shore and Tarren Mill and the ever present siege of crossroads.

    When BGs were introduced world PvP took a sharp downturn at this point. At least on my server, as the grind for High Warlord was easiest met IN BGs. World PvP didn't completely die however since you could still get gain honor from World PvP as well.

    BC was released. Arena's were introduced and the best gear for PvP was only achievable through arena. Also it was way more achievable than the High Warlords gear, so far more people participated. This is when world PvP died. People would still flirt with world PvP at the PvP points in each of the zones but it never reached the constant fever pitch that existed previously. There were just less participants. It had nothing to do with flying, as world PvP in vanilla was pretty much relegated to only a few zones (for the most part). I would rarely run into someone randomly while questing. When things were happening in the PvP hot spots I would join. In BC there were no serious hot spots because everyone was grinding for PvP gear in Arena and more and more people were doing because the arena based PvP was waaaaaaay more accessible than high warlords stuff ever was.

    The rate at which I PvPed in the world actually increased in BC since the alliance and horde shared leveling zones. But the big PvP battles of vanilla never really returned, well until wrath. Even then it was a dedicated zone and felt more like a BG than not.
    Something else that served as a deterrent to world PVP back when the honor system debuted: Dishonorable Kills (remember those?). The penalty for having a single one of those applied to you, if you were grinding for rank, was absolutely ridiculous.

  5. #7985
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    Well I can't argue about Wildstar. That being said I loved the difficulty of the dungeons. My artifical/fake feeling of accomplishment was much more significant when completing one of their dungeons. But to each there own.

    Though I suggest at least giving legion a shot. I think it's really good. The goal is usually a fantastic story arc that I want to get through. The zones were a real treat to traverse as well. Many of the quest NPCs had fun little audio that they would have outside of the quest text as well. Not to mention the design was quite beautiful. You may not like it, and if you decide to not try it, I get that, especially with the track record of things you really dislike. I also feel like the end game is better in Legion considerably. World Quests maybe reskinned daily quests but they are numerous enough to rarely get repeats and there are ton of them from crafting, to pet battles to your normal quest fair. It's odd because the feeling of looking at your world quest interface alone gives a much more defined sense of a goal in mind with such a defined starting point. It felt really good even though I knew it was basically just dailies.

    I get the idea of progress and having a goal, honestly this is where GW fell flat to me though. If gear wasn't my goal what was? At max level your options are Dungeons/Fractals (that take a while to get used to without dedicated roles btw), PvP or World Boss stuff. Perhaps that has changed now, I am not sure. I do know they regularly release content patches with different zones that are generally chalked full of the stuff that GW2 is famous for (little jumping puzzles, some PvE stuff, and other games like races and what not). I know a lot of it is story driven as well. Though again, if you want story, SWtOR is a better option I think
    I loved Wildstar dungeons too. That old sweet adrenaline rush from old sweet NES/MegaDrive times, when you didn't even have time to watch buttons, you were pressing - just pure gameplay. But they were ok while leveling only. When I reached max level - I expected smooth progression curve, we have in Wow. But all of a sudden queue times were too long and groups were braking apart too fast - sometimes players were leaving right after porting into instance. Situation was pretty similar to Cata's 4.0 one, if not even worse - I couldn't complete even a singe dungeon. So I realized, that Dungeons/Raids were doable with friends/guild only. Same happened with outdoor. As the result: Wildstar - is too similar to TBC, as many Wow ex-fans usually want MMOs to be.

    About Legion. I know, that overall game will be good. But, as I've already said, when core mechanics are broken - no great features can fix it. I.e. Blizzard may think, that great features, like Garrison/Order Hall, Artefact and Wardrobe - will outweight the fact, that outdoor content isn't suitable for "Achievers" and/or "RPers". But they are wrong. I just don't want to make the same mistake, I made back in MOP, again - to buy xpack, start playing it, realize, that it's terrible, then to realize, that there is not way back, that game is completely destroyed for me, cuz I can't even play old content, regret it many times and almost quit Wow forever. It's better to play other game, till flying won't be returned or till next xpack, where situation may change.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2016-08-08 at 07:13 PM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  6. #7986
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    But has a TON of jumping puzzles and exploration is very much forced as a lot of your xp comes from that.
    Absolutely the opposite. GW2 gives you experience from EVERYTHING. You can literally level up to max by crafting if you want(although it will cost you some gold to do). You can level up by gathering(where do you think Blizzard got that idea from?), or world PVP, or questing, or exploring, or anything else the game offers.

    It might be faster, but there's no requirement to do jumping puzzles at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    I would say a better engine, I didn't feel a game had a proper engine for that stuff till Wild Star. Which felt like a real marriage of a platformer and MMO. That game was really good but the community died off mainly cause the game was quite hard.
    I played WS from beta to right before it went F2P. WS died because it launched in a massively buggy state. And it's loot system in end-game content was unnecessarily grindy and RNG. Throw in the difficulty you mentioned, stupidly long and arduous attunement processes to even get into a raid, and an almost complete lack of end-game outside of raiding....

    Well...yeah, they pretty much did almost everything wrong in that game. But the engine and the core gameplay of being an action-based MMO was REALLY good.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-08-08 at 07:24 PM.

  7. #7987
    If you're playing WoW for the flying mounts... you're playing the wrong game. Or are a Wrath+ baby.

  8. #7988
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Absolutely the opposite. GW2 gives you experience from EVERYTHING. You can literally level up to max by crafting if you want(although it will cost you some gold to do). You can level up by gathering(where do you think Blizzard got that idea from?), or world PVP, or questing, or exploring, or anything else the game offers.

    There's no requirement to do jumping puzzles at all.
    Yeah. Universal reward system - is what I have always been wanting to have in Wow. Firefall has similar one for example. There is no exclusive rewards there, so, no matter, what you do - harder content grants greater chances to get more or better rewards, not exclusive rewards, that literally force players to do certain kinds of content. And you should choose content, you like - not content, that grants exclusive reward, you need. Blizzards' problem - is that they're lazy and can't provide enough content for all kinds of players and have to force players to do different kinds of content, even if this content doesn't suit said players and this design causes burnout too often.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  9. #7989
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Absolutely the opposite. GW2 gives you experience from EVERYTHING. You can literally level up to max by crafting if you want(although it will cost you some gold to do). You can level up by gathering(where do you think Blizzard got that idea from?), or world PVP, or questing, or exploring, or anything else the game offers.

    There's no requirement to do jumping puzzles at all.

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    I played WS from beta to right before it went F2P. WS died because it launched in a massively buggy state. And it's loot system in end-game content was unnecessarily grindy and RNG. Throw in the difficulty you mentioned, stupidly long and arduous attunement processes to even get into a raid, and an almost complete lack of end-game outside of raiding....

    Well...yeah, they pretty much did almost everything wrong in that game. But the engine and the core gameplay of being an action-based MMO was REALLY good.
    I know there isn't a requirement to do jumping puzzles, I didn't say there was, just that there were a lot of them. Exploration is a big factor. It's still a factor even within crafting, eventually you need mats, which will get you out there and start inadvertently exploring.

  10. #7990
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I played WS from beta to right before it went F2P. WS died because it launched in a massively buggy state. And it's loot system in end-game content was unnecessarily grindy and RNG. Throw in the difficulty you mentioned, stupidly long and arduous attunement processes to even get into a raid, and an almost complete lack of end-game outside of raiding....

    Well...yeah, they pretty much did almost everything wrong in that game. But the engine and the core gameplay of being an action-based MMO was REALLY good.
    Buggy? Dunno about endgame, but I encountered only 2-3 bugged quests while leveling. I don't know. In opposite to Wow, Wildstar launch was pretty smooth for me. What was wrong with Wildstar - is that Carbine tried to rip Vanilla/TBC fans from Wow and created game exactly according to their demands. I.e. Wildstar - is how Wrath should have looked like, if Wow would have evolved towards "right" direction. Wildstar failed due to the same reason, why Cata failed - because this design - is step back and degradation of game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    I know there isn't a requirement to do jumping puzzles, I didn't say there was, just that there were a lot of them. Exploration is a big factor. It's still a factor even within crafting, eventually you need mats, which will get you out there and start inadvertently exploring.
    Content isn't bad, if it isn't mandatory. There is nothing bad about exploration, if it can be avoided and there are alternative ways to achieve the same goals. Errr... Exploration doesn't mean "exploring locations" - you have to do it in any RPG game any way. "Exploration" - looking around every corner and under every stone, searching for some hidden things.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2016-08-08 at 07:37 PM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  11. #7991
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Buggy? Dunno about endgame, but I encountered only 2-3 bugged quests while leveling. I don't know. In opposite to Wow, Wildstar launch was pretty smooth for me. What was wrong with Wildstar - is that Carbine tried to rip Vanilla/TBC fans from Wow and created game exactly according to their demands. I.e. Wildstar - is how Wrath should have looked like, if Wow would have evolved towards "right" direction. Wildstar failed due to the same reason, why Cata failed - because this design - is step back and degradation of game.

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    Content isn't bad, if it isn't mandatory.
    Eh, going out into the world is going to be mandatory if you want to level. Either to get mats, or gold to help you craft up. I will say this, you have a lot of options in GW2 this I won't deny. Many more than just "quest till cap" or "Dungeon till Cap" or the occasional "PvP till Cap". But don't kid yourself, to play a game portions of it will always be mandatory. There will always be a finite number of choices to reach a goal. The good news is hopefully one of those choices falls in line with what you want to do.

  12. #7992
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    Eh, going out into the world is going to be mandatory if you want to level. Either to get mats, or gold to help you craft up. I will say this, you have a lot of options in GW2 this I won't deny. Many more than just "quest till cap" or "Dungeon till Cap" or the occasional "PvP till Cap". But don't kid yourself, to play a game portions of it will always be mandatory. There will always be a finite number of choices to reach a goal. The good news is hopefully one of those choices falls in line with what you want to do.
    You treat exploration way too widely. "Exploration" usually means three things: 1) Lore - when game itself isn't actually important and treated as book/movie/cartoon 2) Secrets - when player searches for some hidden things in game 3) Game mechanics - something similar to real world science, where people want to determine, how things work. Overall - it's all about having some knowledge. When you simply play Super Mario - it's doesn't mean, your are exploring it's world. When you search for secrets - then you do. Same here. Simply going out into the world to gather some resources - isn't exploring.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2016-08-08 at 07:52 PM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  13. #7993
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    You treat exploration way too widely. "Exploration" usually means three things: 1) Lore - when game itself isn't actually important and treated as book/movie/cartoon 2) Secrets - when player searches for some hidden things in game 3) Game mechanics - something similar to real world science, where people want to determine, how things work. When you simply play Super Mario - it's doesn't mean, your are exploring it's world. When you search for secrets - then you do. Same here. Simply going out into the world to gather some resources - isn't exploring.
    I am treating as I feel is appropriate for an MMO. Going out and seeing the world for whatever reason you choose. Opening up that map in other words. Again though, you focus too much on the particular mechanic of exploration as an example. My point is this. You find a game that does well the things you like to do. But never fool yourself into thinking that there is nothing mandatory in any game. In order to play it you will be subject to something that is mandatory in that game. You may have many options, and get to choose something you enjoy among many options but choosing one (or more) of those options will be mandatory. The issue here isn't that WoW has mandatory content, it's that the mandatory content that is available isn't fun or engaging for you.

  14. #7994
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    The problem isn't leveling. It is what happens at level cap and the mobs scale to your level. That is why trying to do world quests and emissary quests will feel like walking on shards of glass. Every.Single. Day.

    And 12 months of that will break anyone's spirit.
    I didn't bother doing much at level cap in beta, but while leveling I just kept thinking "this travel won't be fun to repeat." It's ok once while leveling, the story is pretty good too. It helps that a few of the times the quest NPC sent you to the other side of the zone, they gave you a ride. So I could AFK, tab out, whatever. But it would get old really fast. I'll be skipping playing at launch again. If flying is implemented at a reasonable time I may buy Legion, if it takes as long as WoD I'll wait for it to be free for all accounts like I did with WoD. It was fun to level once in Legion, especially since I didn't have to pay for it. But having to deal with that kind of travel every day for months is not something I am willing to pay for.

  15. #7995
    Once you unlock World Quests you get an item that has a 5 minute cool down that ports you to the nearest flight path. It has made life at level cap a breeze, and unlike WoD I really do not miss flying in this expansion so far.

  16. #7996
    Quote Originally Posted by stigz View Post
    If you're playing WoW for the flying mounts... you're playing the wrong game. Or are a Wrath+ baby.
    Howdy.

    I started in BC.

    I like world PVP.

    I like flying.

    Nice to meet you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    Once you unlock World Quests you get an item that has a 5 minute cool down that ports you to the nearest flight path. It has made life at level cap a breeze, and unlike WoD I really do not miss flying in this expansion so far.
    Flight paths makes it worse not better.

  17. #7997
    Quote Originally Posted by stigz View Post
    If you're playing WoW for the flying mounts... you're playing the wrong game. Or are a Wrath+ baby.
    Odd. I was sure that flying came in Burning Crusade.

    In any case, flying has been a big part of the game for many years, how is it hard to see that removing it angers a lot of people?

    If Blizzard removed PvP or raids would that be cool? I'm sure there are people who never do either of thoes and I'm sure they would not miss them.

  18. #7998
    Quote Originally Posted by stigz View Post
    If you're playing WoW for the flying mounts... you're playing the wrong game. Or are a Wrath+ baby.
    Hello I played since Vanillas launch.

    Lack of flight in Vanilla was fine because leveling was the bulk of the game. People played for a long time w/out ever getting a max level character till near the end of Vanilla. Even at that though one of the largest complaints you would hear in regards to WoW (during Vanilla) was travel.

    Just watch the BC announcement when they said flight was coming to Outland. If that isn't good enough for you watch the announcement for when flight was coming to the whole of Azeroth.

    So the question is who benefits from having flight disabled? It sure as hell isn't for the players as WoD showed us. Honestly if Blizzard had delivered a better more engaging expac w/out flight this conversation would be totally different.

    Some merit does exist for having flight disabled a short time, upon the launch of the expac. Making sure all players are on even playing ground and encourage players to experience the content on the ground. The problem is simple though, and month maybe two into the expac all merit is lost.

    Sure riding through that zone the first time while leveling is fun and engaging, even the second time while completing a World Quest was alright. But what about the 3rd 4th 20th time of riding through the same unchanging area over and over again?

    I am not the type of person that say flying is content. However what flying does do is enable content, by reducing the tedium an annoyance of open world travel. Just like in WoD a month into Legion the open world will be empty. People will do what they NEED to do and plant themselves in the capital cities or class order halls.

    I have 3 twenty dollar battlenet gift cards, and won a copy of Overwatch from Taco Bell, that is the ONLY reason I have Legion. I will play for the first month as I expect the leveling experience will be top notch, however after a month I will be letting my sub lapse for the sole reason of the lack of flight.

    If I were younger perhaps I would invest time into another MMO, but that isn't the case... So i will just patiently wait for Mods to hit PS4 for Fallout (already beat it just want to build some kick ass settlements)
    I am not pro Flight, I am pro a better more engaging game. I just took the pro flight stance cause I knew Blizzard couldn't deliver. Looks like I was right

  19. #7999
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Many people are more apt to go out and do remaining content if the travel isn't tedious from place to place. They designed WoD terribly and it made people abandon the open world at their first possible chance. In Mists people were out doing quests and engaging in content the entire expansion. In WoD you'd rarely see other people if you were out doing things after the first month.
    Sure, but simply making travel faster is really a bandaid solution to something that could add value to the experience.

  20. #8000
    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    Once you unlock World Quests you get an item that has a 5 minute cool down that ports you to the nearest flight path. It has made life at level cap a breeze, and unlike WoD I really do not miss flying in this expansion so far.
    For some people flying is more than a means of transportation.

    Also, they don't want us to fly and skip content so they remove flying and give us an item that allows us to skip content? Nice logic!
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

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