PVE set bonuses and Mythic+ dungeons

[Jtbrig7390]

People won't pug hard content, they never do

Ummm you do realize people have been pugging Heroic raiding for awhile now and ever since the patch been pugging Mythic.

[Nitros14]

Ummm you do realize people have been pugging Heroic raiding for awhile now and ever since the patch been pugging Mythic.

Heroic raiding was never hard content outside of maybe the first week on heroic Archimonde.

Mythic raiding isn't exactly very hard right now.

[Jtbrig7390]

Heroic raiding was never hard content outside of maybe the first week on heroic Archimonde.

Mythic raiding isn't exactly very hard right now.

You do realize difficulty is subjective as well right?

[Charge me Doctor]

- Like it or not, Blizzard considers LFR a form of raiding, thus it provides "RAID TIER SETS"

Like anyone gives a fuck about LFR gear. I already entitled to kick anyone who use 4p LFR set in my mythic+ runs over actual gear "cuz set bonuses ololol"

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It doesn't make sense to not tune mythic dungeons to raid set gear/BIS gear so that a raider can't just face roll and automatically have higher mythic+ runs every week just because they raid.

They said "separate progression system via 5 mans" not "raiders who only raid can instantly be ahead of anyone who farms mythic raids because their gear is vastly superior"

Not tuning dungeons for raid sets doesn't make sense for you? Maybe disallowing cars to drive on a sidewalk doesn't make sense for you too?

You can do raids and get raid sets and raid gear (which is better than mythic+, because mythic+ iirc is locked behind raid gear for ~10ilvls)
You also can do mythic+ to get quality gear if you don't enjoy, don't want to participate or don't have enough passion or time or whatever to raid (which wasn't an option before, because dungeons were "locked" behind raid gear for ~100ilvls)
You can also do pvp and get equally good gear.
You can even do quests and get decent gear.

You literally can do anything to get gear that is somewhat equal to other activities, there is no huge gap between rewards for activities, and it's fine. And no, you shouldn't get raid tier bonuses for running mythic+ it's just dumb as "every class should have a 5 seconds stun", "every melee should have a gap closer, a MS boost, a spammable slow and leet deeps because we have to deal with casters"

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Raid tier set bonuses have potential to be stronger than +50 ilvls gear, so no.

That's wrong, unless you provide decent math for this assumption you are a dummy

[runique]

Ummm you do realize people have been pugging Heroic raiding for awhile now and ever since the patch been pugging Mythic.

Many people pugged heroic before the patch, but the groups would substantially out-gear the content. To make it seem as if people pugged "hard content" is flat out bullshit.

[Charge me Doctor]

You're right that I haven't done a lot of research. But "balanced" still means that you have to run both to get the best of either. And given that I haven't done a ton of research, note that my entire post was hypothetical, note the use of "if" and "would". I do know what titanforged is but don't really see how it has a bearing on the conversation. I have a whole separate set of opinions on the super RNG loot and titanforged if you want to get into that somewhere else.

That's a fucking definition of getting the best - doing EVERYTHING to get better gear. From spending tons of gold on BoE crap to running alt raids to gear up your mains

[OrcsRLame]

You're right that I haven't done a lot of research. But "balanced" still means that you have to run both to get the best of either. And given that I haven't done a ton of research, note that my entire post was hypothetical, note the use of "if" and "would". I do know what titanforged is but don't really see how it has a bearing on the conversation. I have a whole separate set of opinions on the super RNG loot and titanforged if you want to get into that somewhere else.

You absolutely need to do both to get the best gear. BiS for almost every spec is going to be 4PT19, double Suramar Dungeon 2P, double legendary, Horn of Valor, Chrono Shard and generic 895s in all other slots. 6 Of those are exclusive to mythic dungeons, 4 is from raids and everything else can come from any source.

And concerning getting 895 gear, if I had to pick in an objective sense, raids or mythic+, I'd pick mythic+. Let's be extremely generous and say that you personally will get 3 pieces of 880+ gear every single week from your mythic raid, (if that's true you're sucking the loot master's dick or you have godly bonus rolls) that's 3 chances per week to roll +15 Titanforged for a BiS piece. Mythic+ is a functionally unlimited amount of loot per week. A dedicated group should be able to clear 5 +12s per week. That's 15 pieces of 865+ gear and 45 pieces of 840-860+ gear, and that's per person. Every level you can clear after that will be another 5 pieces of gear person, and if you have more than 5 people you can always swap people in for more keystones, allowing you to essentially run as much mythic+ as you can stomach. Keep in mind also that that's all personal loot, so if someone gets an 895 that they don't need they can simply pass it to another person in the group. Yes, you need a piece of gear to be +30 Titanforged for mythic+ gear to be BiS as opposed to +15 from mythic raids, but instead of getting 3 chances per week you could be getting 30, or 50, or 200. Fuck, if you can clear a 15 you should be able to carry one person through a 10-11, so then you just sell spots and you make asinine amounts of gold and loot falls from the sky.

Anyone that cares about making their character as powerful as possible will do both mythic+ and mythic raids.

[Jtbrig7390]

Many people pugged heroic before the patch, but the groups would substantially out-gear the content. To make it seem as if people pugged "hard content" is flat out bullshit.

Well I hate to break it to you but many pugs cleared heroic without substantially out-gearing it. Did it take them longer then guilds? Yep but it was done.

[Snuffleupagus]

All the things you're talking about usually refer to the gear you wear during early progression, not the best in slot pieces you end up with at the end. Almost every best in slot piece ends up coming from the raid typically.

Obviously, as I've stated earlier, people who play both should get geared a lot more quickly than those who don't. But I don't like it that you can never catch up if you just play one, and the potential that you might just be way behind.

Unless you raid mythic, why do you need to catch up?

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Well I hate to break it to you but many pugs cleared heroic without substantially out-gearing it. Did it take them longer then guilds? Yep but it was done.

Co-ordinated non guild groups are not your typical pug group. Almost no one was clearing Heroic Archi without massively overgearing the content.

[Jtbrig7390]

Co-ordinated non guild groups are not your typical pug group. Almost no one was clearing Heroic Archi without massively overgearing the content.

Almost no one isn't no one. I didn't say all groups was doing it but pugs was.

[Snuffleupagus]

Because I'm most likely going to be trying to run mythic+ dungeons with friends who do run mythic raids, and if I'm just hopelessly behind on gear they're not going to want to play with me or else they'll play with me but feel like they're doing a favor. I want to carry my own weight.

Given that people are doing Mythic+10 on beta right now without raid tier, what is the issue?

A carry is where you are undergeared and/or extremely shit at your class.

If your friends don't want to play with you, maybe you just have shitty friends. I take returning players in my guild through Mythics now and don't care that they are 640 geared. These aren't even close friends, just normal guild mates.

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Almost no one isn't no one. I didn't say all groups was doing it but pugs was.

The fact remains that almost no one cleared it with level appropriate gear. You are trying to make it sound like plenty of groups were clearing H Archi when this was not the case.

You're own words: "many pugs". Not true. At all.

[Charge me Doctor]

All the things you're talking about usually refer to the gear you wear during early progression, not the best in slot pieces you end up with at the end. Almost every best in slot piece ends up coming from the raid typically.

Obviously, as I've stated earlier, people who play both should get geared a lot more quickly than those who don't. But I don't like it that you can never catch up if you just play one, and the potential that you might just be way behind.

Well since there is no set in stone item stats and/or budgets i'm yet to see how strong tier sets are compared to proper itemization. Yes, i'll take 4 pieces of crit/mastery gear on my fire mage over a 4p set with versatility, haste and other bullshit that i don't want.
BiS pieces are not always set pieces. It's matter of luck if set bonus will be worth it - you may get a titanforged set piece over your regular mythic+, but you also may get titanfoged mythic+ over your LFR set piece.

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Co-ordinated non guild groups are not your typical pug group. Almost no one was clearing Heroic Archi without massively overgearing the content.

Didn't blizzard deliberately made Archi almost impossible to pug to make guild-raids's dick hard?

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Because I'm most likely going to be trying to run mythic+ dungeons with friends who do run mythic raids, and if I'm just hopelessly behind on gear they're not going to want to play with me or else they'll play with me but feel like they're doing a favor. I want to carry my own weight.

So, your situation is - you were leveling to 110, quit the game, while your friends raid mythic and gear up, you return to game when they outgear you and you want to do mythic+ with them?

Or is it just split ways, they are going to raid mythic and you are going to focus on mythic+? I bet that you'll outgear them since mythic+ is more reliable way to get gear than mythic raids. Well, at least from my experience of raiding hard content on the fucking start, 20 wipes and no loot.

[OrcsRLame]

Well since there is no set in stone item stats and/or budgets i'm yet to see how strong tier sets are compared to proper itemization. Yes, i'll take 4 pieces of crit/mastery gear on my fire mage over a 4p set with versatility, haste and other bullshit that i don't want.
BiS pieces are not always set pieces. It's matter of luck if set bonus will be worth it - you may get a titanforged set piece over your regular mythic+, but you also may get titanfoged mythic+ over your LFR set piece.

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Didn't blizzard deliberately made Archi almost impossible to pug to make guild-raids's dick hard?

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So, your situation is - you were leveling to 110, quit the game, while your friends raid mythic and gear up, you return to game when they outgear you and you want to do mythic+ with them?

Or is it just split ways, they are going to raid mythic and you are going to focus on mythic+? I bet that you'll outgear them since mythic+ is more reliable way to get gear than mythic raids. Well, at least from my experience of raiding hard content on the fucking start, 20 wipes and no loot.

Not only is mythic+ more reliable, but raid gear will suck ass at the start anyway. Emerald Nightmare is Highmaul. It doesn't have tier. Nighthold has the tier. Nighthold doesn't come out till January. I fully expect to have mythic Xavius on farm by the time Nighthold comes out, and I expect that at least 50% of my gear that I zone into Nighthold with will be from mythic+.

I suppose technically dungeon sets won't be available st the start either, but it really doesn't take that long to unlock CoS/Arcway. Certainly well before the end of the year.

[Deleted]

Trinkets are another story, and the issue there is tuning. Blizzard is so terrible at tuning trinkets that you can have one trinket in a tier that is literally 3-4X as good as the others. If they made trinkets less game breaking, it wouldn't be as big a deal. I'm honestly ok with stat stick trinks or trinks with an on use that gives you a lot of one stat. Those are fairly straightforward to balance.

But yeah 4 piece bonuses shouldn't work in mythic+. I also think that damping down item levels for mythic+ gear in raids, and for raid gear in mythic+, would be a good idea. Not massively worse, just make it 7 item levels or something. Ideally, you want both groups (raiders and dungeoners) to be able to get the best gear for their chosen form of endgame from that form, but have some encouragement to do others that might drop slightly lower gear but is still helpful in the gearing process. If I'm running mythic dungeons and trying to get 850 gear (or whatever the ilvl is), getting a few 843 pieces from raiding will help me along and encourage me to raid, but not make me do raiding at a high level in order to ensure I can progress as far as I hope to in dungeons. If, alternatively, the only way to get 850 gear for mythic+ is to raid, I'm going to be pretty discouraged.

You want to encourage people to do other forms of content by giving them things that make their progression easier, not make it so that the best path forward in one form of endgame requires farming gear from the other.

You absolutely need to do both to get the best gear. BiS for almost every spec is going to be 4PT19, double Suramar Dungeon 2P, double legendary, Horn of Valor, Chrono Shard and generic 895s in all other slots. 6 Of those are exclusive to mythic dungeons, 4 is from raids and everything else can come from any source.

And concerning getting 895 gear, if I had to pick in an objective sense, raids or mythic+, I'd pick mythic+. Let's be extremely generous and say that you personally will get 3 pieces of 880+ gear every single week from your mythic raid, (if that's true you're sucking the loot master's dick or you have godly bonus rolls) that's 3 chances per week to roll +15 Titanforged for a BiS piece. Mythic+ is a functionally unlimited amount of loot per week. A dedicated group should be able to clear 5 +12s per week. That's 15 pieces of 865+ gear and 45 pieces of 840-860+ gear, and that's per person. Every level you can clear after that will be another 5 pieces of gear person, and if you have more than 5 people you can always swap people in for more keystones, allowing you to essentially run as much mythic+ as you can stomach. Keep in mind also that that's all personal loot, so if someone gets an 895 that they don't need they can simply pass it to another person in the group. Yes, you need a piece of gear to be +30 Titanforged for mythic+ gear to be BiS as opposed to +15 from mythic raids, but instead of getting 3 chances per week you could be getting 30, or 50, or 200. Fuck, if you can clear a 15 you should be able to carry one person through a 10-11, so then you just sell spots and you make asinine amounts of gold and loot falls from the sky.

Anyone that cares about making their character as powerful as possible will do both mythic+ and mythic raids.

Keep in mind also that that's all personal loot, so if someone gets an 895 that they don't need they can simply pass it to another person in the group. No they wont be able to unless they already have a 895piece for that slot. so 99% of time you wont be able to trde it.

[ShiyoKozuki]

It would kill off raiding.

Good. Honestly, if raiding is so unenjoyable that the only reason people do it is because set bonuses are so overpowered and give so much character power, maybe it's time to spend less dev time on raids or to find a way to make them actually enjoyable and fun instead of just a carrot to work towards.

[ShiyoKozuki]

It comes down to the fact that people who only do 5 mans are a minority that Blizzard will not cater to. The fact that you are getting Mythic+ is an olive branch, because this minority are the most vocal. If you weren't a minority, you wouldn't complain about the lack of groups willing to take you.

For what it is, LFR is an overwhelming success, getting more and more people into raids and giving shit players a chance to see endgame. The most you could ever hope for is old school dungeon sets with very minor increases to stats.

At the end of the day, end game content has to be a specific difficulty because that is what Blizzard seems to want. Mythic+ is not endgame for Mythic raiders because Mythic raids are the hardest content in the game. They will have that difficulty even with the best gear in the game. Same goes for Mythic+ - it is the end game for dungeoneers and will therefore remain at a specific level of difficulty.

There is no way Blizzard us going to give Tier to make things easier, that would just reignite the complaints that Mythics are irrelevant content. If they increase the difficulty too much to compensate, the carebear brigade will complain like they did for Cata heroics.

The fact that Blizzard have listened and given you 5 man end game content should be enough. If it isn't, maybe stop being a little bitch and unsubscribe to demonstrate your resolve. But you won't. We all know you won't.

On some level, you know it too.

You seem really mad over the fact that people enjoy 5 man content.
Raids are the worst type of content in a MMO IMO, and 5 mans are the best. People have been begging for challenging and relevant end game progression 5 mans for YEARS.

It's about time we get it. Raiding is garbage outdated 2006 content that really doesn't belong in MMO's anymore. LFR is the only type of raid content that belongs anymore - the hardest content should be 5 mans, and easiest big raids where you can be carried.

That's how MMO's should be designed in 2016. The casuals have big raid content where their individual skill matters less to do, and the hardcores have small content where their individual skill matters a LOT and can really push themselves the most.

[Deleted]

Raid trinkets might also be a problem, but set bonuses basically like double your damage as a lot of classes. Look at ret's right now, 3 charges of avenging wings? That's insane.

Mythic+ Trinkets are currently BiS for many of us. I play balance druid; I won't get into mythic+ groups easily because balance druid is bad in there -> I have hard times getting BiS trinkets. This said; both have something extra rewarding, and I think it's good thing.

[Deleted]

This. It will let the special snowflakes who raid keep their special snowflake sets, and those of us who don't raid will still get the benefit of having set bonuses. I don't care if they're just flat +stat bonuses or something, it'd just be nice to have actual sets that I don't have to put up with 19 other people to get.

I just love how wanting something to be and feel special immediately makes people "special snowflakes", yet it's how some rewards become as rewarding as they are. I'll happily be a special snowflake then.

That being said (and it doesn't go against this), a Mythic+ Dungeon only Set with different (and maybe even competitive) set bonuses sounds like a good idea. Maybe something that interacts with CC's and stuff, as those things are pretty important in higher M+ Dungeons.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Because I'm most likely going to be trying to run mythic+ dungeons with friends who do run mythic raids, and if I'm just hopelessly behind on gear they're not going to want to play with me or else they'll play with me but feel like they're doing a favor. I want to carry my own weight.

Which is why regardless of what content someone enjoys doing, it should reward them with gear within 10% power of mythic raiders if you put in enough time(long grinds). 10% is enough reward to mythic raid, but not a big enough gap that if you don't raid you're a liability and weak as hell.

Vanilla WoW did this, it's why it was so fantastic. Sure, you had to do pvp for ab/AV reps and 20 man raids(pug casual alt raid guilds content) to be within that 10%, but you NEVER had to do 40 man scheduled raiding. The raiders were stronger, the non raiders were strong enough to not be a liability or feel like a weakling. The non-raiders simply had to put in a lot of time, which is ok.

[Cien]

I just love how wanting something to be and feel special immediately makes people "special snowflakes", yet it's how some rewards become as rewarding as they are. I'll happily be a special snowflake then.

That being said (and it doesn't go against this), a Mythic+ Dungeon only Set with different (and maybe even competitive) set bonuses sounds like a good idea. Maybe something that interacts with CC's and stuff, as those things are pretty important in higher M+ Dungeons.

i love special snowflakes, all the haters like to throw that term around liberally, its like when i use benediction in my tmog i get haters messaging me like 'hurr durr cool you played in vanilla so amazing', then they are stood there with their benediction wannabe staves, its so qt.

OT: set bonuses for the best gear was always obtained through raiding, the dungeon blues in previous expacs were just stepping stones just like current blues are in dungeons, you can use them, get your BoE crafts or do some raiding, there is no need to make the same gear available from every source