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  1. #1

    "Retribution" ability trait, not the spec

    anyone else found it very hard to search for discussions about "Retribution", no not the spec but the ability that buffs you when people die. It makes sense as a name but urgh does it make it hard to google/forum search for except if you trawl through pages and pages hoping to find someone talk about it.

    Was wondering what people's thoughts on it were and its place in the game in pvp and pve.

    I for one think its a neat factor to have since in most of the raids i've been in my rogue has often survived alongside a retri pally or two when the boss is at 1-2% health.

  2. #2
    It's neat... I agree they should have called it something else, anything clever and in keeping with the idea of gaining strength/adrenaline while those around you fall, like "While I Still Draw Breath" or whatever.

    I'm kinda bugged that Protection has Retribution Aura, too. That probably should belong to Ret.

  3. #3
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    It's not an ability that is seriously going to help. It's alright saying we get a damage boost with the boss on 1-2% but remember that we get a 20% boost while someone else got a 100% reduction. Net result is -80% of a person to the raid; this is not a good thing to happen at 1% boss health. It also has the likely result of inflating our damage on progress until we are about ready to kill the boss and people start surviving better.

    However, the recent change was a big improvement. The damage reduction is the best part of this passive as something that might have killed a raid member, and might have killed us a few seconds later, now is 30% less damaging. It might just save our arse at the expense of someone who would have died anyway.

  4. #4
    It's okay, from a purely statistical perspective, I guess. Not too good, not too bad.

    It was certainly too good during beta when it was still just a flat 50% damage increase. You could fill a raid up with shadow priests with Surrender to Madness and Retribution paladins to make some damn sick DPS.

    However, it certainly doesn't fit into that whole "CLASS FANTASY, GUYS! CLASS FANTASY!" that the developers keep shouting about.
    What kind of a Paladin would want their fellow man to be dead? Because that's what the talent comes down to.

    I do understand the part about wanting Retribution for your dead friends, but I think that would work much, much better for Holy.
    Think about it for a moment.

    You're Holy and your friend kicks the bucket, what do you do?
    You get angry, not at the enemy but at yourself for failing your friend, and you do a little better for the reminder of the fight.

    You're Retribution and your friend kicks the bucket, what do you do?
    Apparently, according to Blizzard, you get really mad and kill everybody, all the while keeping yourself alive a little better. Nevermind those guys you're with, stuff just got personal.

    It doesn't sound very Paladin-y to me.

    The Retribution talent that Retribution has sounds more like Revenge, not Retribution. Revenge is personal and aimed at the offender, retribution is less emotional and aimed to set things straight, not to seek revenge against any given target.

    After all, what are we without our higher moral ground and some resemblance of standards?
    Just slightly shinier warriors with half the ability to actually fight.

    The Retribution talent is really messing with my perspective on the Paladin class, probably way more than it should. Pardon me.

    Ironically enough, I think Retribution is the last spec that should have the Retribution talent. It does not fit the class fantasy if you ask me.

    Gaining personal benefit from dead friends is for Warlocks.
    Last edited by Fatali; 2016-07-30 at 10:33 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatali View Post
    It's okay, from a purely statistical perspective, I guess. Not too good, not too bad.

    It was certainly too good during beta when it was still just a flat 50% damage increase. You could fill a raid up with shadow priests with Surrender to Madness and Retribution paladins to make some damn sick DPS.

    However, it certainly doesn't fit into that whole "CLASS FANTASY, GUYS! CLASS FANTASY!" that the developers keep shouting about.
    What kind of a Paladin would want their fellow man to be dead? Because that's what the talent comes down to.

    I do understand the part about wanting Retribution for your dead friends, but I think that would work much, much better for Holy.
    Think about it for a moment.

    You're Holy and your friend kicks the bucket, what do you do?
    You get angry, not at the enemy but at yourself for failing your friend, and you do a little better for the reminder of the fight.

    You're Retribution and your friend kicks the bucket, what do you do?
    Apparently, according to Blizzard, you get really mad and kill everybody, all the while keeping yourself alive a little better. Nevermind those guys you're with, stuff just got personal.

    It doesn't sound very Paladin-y to me.

    The Retribution talent that Retribution has sounds more like Revenge, not Retribution. Revenge is personal and aimed at the offender, retribution is less emotional and aimed to set things straight, not to seek revenge against any given target.

    After all, what are we without our higher moral ground and some resemblance of standards?
    Just slightly shinier warriors with half the ability to actually fight.

    The Retribution talent is really messing with my perspective on the Paladin class, probably way more than it should. Pardon me.

    Ironically enough, I think Retribution is the last spec that should have the Retribution talent. It does not fit the class fantasy if you ask me.

    Gaining personal benefit from dead friends is for Warlocks.
    No... "Retribution" is just perfect for our spec. Aesthetic-wise. And tbh, I've had so many raids as a ret where I'm among the last few standing and I save the day thanks to Divine Shield. This is perfect for such situations.

    Btw, we even have an ability called "Justicar's Vengeance". And the vengeance theme has always been there. Especially strong for Blood Elves (check their TBC abilities).

  6. #6
    I just wish it was more practical, lets say if some1 falls under 10% hp, Retribution gets this buff. Ofc it would be gimmick on some fights where boss reduces every1 hp to very low amount but still it would be better design for Ret than we have to sacrifice some1 in our grp for a dmg boost, thats more of a DK lore if you ask me, not Ret.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    I actually find it underwhelming. But thats because our damage is generally low these days (once your wings run out you are done). I don't feel awesome or anything when it pops, its not like it changes your rotation (if you got a spare wings to use then do that. It's about all you can do). Though it is funny beeing able to know when someone died by tracking it. It's not usually something you control as a hawk when playing melee.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2016-08-07 at 11:08 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Doombringer View Post
    It's neat... I agree they should have called it something else, anything clever and in keeping with the idea of gaining strength/adrenaline while those around you fall, like "While I Still Draw Breath" or whatever.

    I'm kinda bugged that Protection has Retribution Aura, too. That probably should belong to Ret.
    Yeah makes sense. Should have given Seals to Ret, something to prot, and Auras to holy. Would have defined each spec a bit more, and Holy does have auras, ret just needs seals.

  9. #9
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    It is fucking stupid and useless, my feeling on it. You getting a small damage buff isn't going to allow you to make up for the damage of 1 dps being dead. The problem with it is that it has to be weak enough that stacking it is useless (in which case the buff itself is entirely worthless), or strong enough that stacking it is actually a viable strat and people go around cheesing bosses with only ret paladin+spriests for dps.

    It is a staggeringly awful ability. I'd much rather see an active ability that increase your damage by X% for Y seconds for each Z% of health missing from raid members, that would fit the spec theme while also creating a cooldown that has an actual function.
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2016-08-08 at 12:32 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    It is fucking stupid and useless, my feeling on it. You getting a small damage buff isn't going to allow you to make up for the damage of 1 dps being dead. The problem with it is that it has to be weak enough that stacking it is useless (in which case the buff itself is entirely worthless), or strong enough that stacking it is actually a viable strat and people go around cheesing bosses with only ret paladin+spriests for dps.
    I don't think it stacks. I believe it only refreshes the duration.

  11. #11
    I think flavor wise it is alright to have us hulk out at a fallen warrior. My main issue is that our damage clearly has to be balanced around having this up for some amount of time which puts it with Might as having some amount of our expected damage relying on other people's performance. They have said that Might isn't factored into our expected DPS but with 3 up it adds 8-10% more damage. With Retribution kicking in it could be another 3-5% total damage. That means that Blizzard either isn't accounting for 10-15% of our expected damage or they are accounting for it and our bottom line is being hit by it.

    Perhaps if they changed Retribution to "When a party/raid member dies everybody within {40} yards of the paladin gains {10}% damage reduction for {6} seconds. This effect can occur once per {minute}" it would feel at least a little better. Our damage wouldn't have anything to do with it and the gain is still not big enough to purposefully cheese. It would really only be good for pulsing damage.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by tarnog View Post
    My main issue is that our damage clearly has to be balanced around having this up for some amount of time which puts it with Might as having some amount of our expected damage relying on other people's performance. They have said that Might isn't factored into our expected DPS but with 3 up it adds 8-10% more damage. With Retribution kicking in it could be another 3-5% total damage. That means that Blizzard either isn't accounting for 10-15% of our expected damage or they are accounting for it and our bottom line is being hit by it.
    They've said:

    * Retribution (the class) is balanced around 3 Greater Blessings, no necessarily just Might. (1 <= NumMight <= 3)
    * Retribution (the passive) is a bonus, we're not balanced around it.

    You may argue the wisdom of those claims, but that's what we've been told.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Doombringer View Post
    It's neat... I agree they should have called it something else, anything clever and in keeping with the idea of gaining strength/adrenaline while those around you fall, like "While I Still Draw Breath" or whatever.

    I'm kinda bugged that Protection has Retribution Aura, too. That probably should belong to Ret.
    Eh, prot has always used ret aura, ret has always used sanctity. I find it disappointing that out of all the new aura talents, ret aura is the most garbage one. Spell BoP is amazingly useful on anything with significant spell damage, and double charger can be quite handy so the aura with be fairly uncommon to see too.

  14. #14
    See what it should be is something like this.
    "Divine Guardian"
    Whenever you heal or mitigate more than x% of a players max health you gain 20% damage for 10 seconds.
    That way you'd have to be smart and look at raid frames or know when to properly use your Hand of Sacrifice (or protection, idk)
    It would also fit into the hybrid fantasy as well as the "warrior of light" fantasy healing and protecting your allies while dishing out damage.
    Think of it like you get a buff in damage to compensate for you using a GCD on a heal but on top of just the compensation you're slightly rewarded for doing something good.
    I always said that the mark of a good Ret was his/her ability to maintain damage while still doing all their utility and heals on point, if they don't then they should just be a pure dpser.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Alindra View Post
    They've said:

    * Retribution (the class) is balanced around 3 Greater Blessings, no necessarily just Might. (1 <= NumMight <= 3)
    * Retribution (the passive) is a bonus, we're not balanced around it.

    You may argue the wisdom of those claims, but that's what we've been told.
    I mostly don't like that these are out of the player's control as to how effective they end up being. Also, renaming it to something like "Avenger" would at least make it less confusing.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    It's not an ability that is seriously going to help. It's alright saying we get a damage boost with the boss on 1-2% but remember that we get a 20% boost while someone else got a 100% reduction. Net result is -80% of a person to the raid; this is not a good thing to happen at 1% boss health. It also has the likely result of inflating our damage on progress until we are about ready to kill the boss and people start surviving better.

    However, the recent change was a big improvement. The damage reduction is the best part of this passive as something that might have killed a raid member, and might have killed us a few seconds later, now is 30% less damaging. It might just save our arse at the expense of someone who would have died anyway.
    My problem with it, is I know it's not "just a bonus" in their minds, as they once claimed it would be... I don't believe for a second that they aren't balancing us around assuming that buff is active often because our damage is extremely lackluster without it... It needs to just be removed entirely so we can be properly balanced, just like Greater Blessing of Might, they are both pointless...

    Why Blizzard is so god damn stubborn about these things is beyond me, when nearly the entire spec's community dislikes something(GBoM), it should be strongly considered for removal and at least undergo major rework, not ignored as if not a problem.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2016-08-09 at 03:27 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    My problem with it, is I refuse to believe it's "just a bonus" in their minds... I don't believe for a second that they aren't balancing us around assuming that buff is active often because our damage is extremely lackluster... It needs to just be removed entirely so we can be properly balanced, just like Greater Blessing of Might, they are both pointless.
    no i think we've had enough removed at this point thx

    ot: i really like the buff retribution gives, i was in a temple of kotmogu yesterday and it was a really intense fight with no healers on either side so lots of deaths meant lots of uptime for me, stacked with wings and berserker buff, well its safe to say, heads rolled and we won

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cien View Post
    no i think we've had enough removed at this point thx

    ot: i really like the buff retribution gives, i was in a temple of kotmogu yesterday and it was a really intense fight with no healers on either side so lots of deaths meant lots of uptime for me, stacked with wings and berserker buff, well its safe to say, heads rolled and we won
    It needs to be removed, it is a pointless buff that will only make a noticeable difference in our numbers when a wipe is in progress, at which point it's already 100% irrelevant, and it prevents us from being properly balanced in both PvE and PvP... Not wanting a glaring design flaw fixed because "we've had enough removed at this point" is a horridly illogical stance to take.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2016-08-09 at 03:31 PM.
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  19. #19
    I like it, it plays into the theme of Retribution very well. I just wish Retribution Paladins also had "Retribution Aura" as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    It needs to be removed, it is a pointless buff that will only make a noticeable difference in our numbers when a wipe is in progress, at which point it's already 100% irrelevant, and it prevents us from being properly balanced in both PvE and PvP... Not wanting a glaring design flaw fixed because "we've had enough removed at this point" is a horridly illogical stance to take.
    You aren't thinking about PvP at all. The "Retribution" passive is amazing in an Rbg setting.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I like it, it plays into the theme of Retribution very well. I just wish Retribution Paladins also had "Retribution Aura" as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You aren't thinking about PvP at all. The "Retribution" passive is amazing in an Rbg setting.
    Did you bother to read the section quoted? I'm guessing not because I specifically mentioned "prevents us from being properly balanced in both PvE and PvP"

    If it didn't exist, our baseline damage and defensives would undoubtedly be stronger, we shouldn't need to rely on a buff that requires someone else to die on our team to not be squishy as fuck and hit like a wet noodle... Because if we are focused and die first, which is very likely to happen considering how shit our defensives and mobility are, it means nothing... Not to mention we will never be brought to any competent RBG team at this point anyways, we are still a worse choice than pretty much any other melee in the game right now.

    The Retribution passive needs to be removed, so that our regular defensive and offensive capabilities can be properly balanced.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2016-08-09 at 03:39 PM.
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