"Retribution" ability trait, not the spec

[Ripitgood]

It's okay, from a purely statistical perspective, I guess. Not too good, not too bad.

It was certainly too good during beta when it was still just a flat 50% damage increase. You could fill a raid up with shadow priests with Surrender to Madness and Retribution paladins to make some damn sick DPS.

However, it certainly doesn't fit into that whole "CLASS FANTASY, GUYS! CLASS FANTASY!" that the developers keep shouting about.
What kind of a Paladin would want their fellow man to be dead? Because that's what the talent comes down to.

I do understand the part about wanting Retribution for your dead friends, but I think that would work much, much better for Holy.
Think about it for a moment.

You're Holy and your friend kicks the bucket, what do you do?
You get angry, not at the enemy but at yourself for failing your friend, and you do a little better for the reminder of the fight.

You're Retribution and your friend kicks the bucket, what do you do?
Apparently, according to Blizzard, you get really mad and kill everybody, all the while keeping yourself alive a little better. Nevermind those guys you're with, stuff just got personal.

It doesn't sound very Paladin-y to me.

The Retribution talent that Retribution has sounds more like Revenge, not Retribution. Revenge is personal and aimed at the offender, retribution is less emotional and aimed to set things straight, not to seek revenge against any given target.

After all, what are we without our higher moral ground and some resemblance of standards?
Just slightly shinier warriors with half the ability to actually fight.

The Retribution talent is really messing with my perspective on the Paladin class, probably way more than it should. Pardon me.

Ironically enough, I think Retribution is the last spec that should have the Retribution talent. It does not fit the class fantasy if you ask me.

Gaining personal benefit from dead friends is for Warlocks.

I think you're woefully ignoring the definition of "Retribution". Both as the name states, and as the class is related. Paladins are Priests who are Warriors. They care for the weak while protecting them. If for whatever reason they can't. They'll take RETRIBUTION on the transgressor. That's exactly their Class Fantasy.

[nyc81991]

Did you bother to read the section quoted? I'm guessing not because I specifically mentioned "prevents us from being properly balanced in both PvE and PvP"

If it didn't exist, our baseline damage and defensives would undoubtedly be stronger, we shouldn't need to rely on a buff that requires someone else to die on our team to not be squishy as fuck and hit like a wet noodle... Because if we are focused and die first, which is very likely to happen considering how shit our defensives and mobility are, it means nothing... Not to mention we will never be brought to any competent RBG team at this point anyways, we are still a worse choice than pretty much any other melee in the game right now.

The Retribution passive needs to be removed, so that our regular defensive and offensive capabilities can be properly balanced.

There is no evidence for Ret being a stronger spec without the Retribution passive ability. In fact, Blizzard has a very long history of leaving us with terrible damage and nothing to make up for it.

I have had Beta since it released, Ret is pretty amazing in PvP at 110 with a fully empowered Ashbringer. The largest issue Ret has right now is mobility (which was slightly helped by Divine Steed going baseline but it still isn't enough. They need to bring back Emancipate).

[Deleted]

There is no evidence for Ret being a stronger spec without the Retribution passive ability. In fact, Blizzard has a very long history of leaving us with terrible damage and nothing to make up for it.

Let´s not get salty here we were always left with a very well balanced spec. They just wanted to avoid us being unbalanced.

[Cien]

It needs to be removed, it is a pointless buff that will only make a noticeable difference in our numbers when a wipe is in progress, at which point it's already 100% irrelevant, and it prevents us from being properly balanced in both PvE and PvP... Not wanting a glaring design flaw fixed because "we've had enough removed at this point" is a horridly illogical stance to take.

because it's not the same view that you share its not exactly illogical, don't be too petty over it, it's an interesting concept and guess what, we have it, and it'll hopefully stay until further notice <3

nothing like an incentive to stay alive and don't stand in fire than encouraging people to push rets further up dps meters? mwhahaha

[Schattenlied]

nothing like an incentive to stay alive and don't stand in fire than encouraging people to push rets further up dps meters? mwhahaha

Yup, zero logic.


You seem to want it to stay for the sake of having a thing there, instead of us being well balanced you would rather have a gimmicky BS mechanic that only properly functions when our teammates are doing poorly... There is, again, zero logic in that.

And yes, it is an interesting concept, but only on paper, in practice it's pointless and detrimental to our being properly balanced... It being a good idea on paper isn't good enough.

[Chaosinciter]

Yup, zero logic.


You seem to want it to stay for the sake of having a thing there, instead of us being well balanced you would rather have a gimmicky BS mechanic that only properly functions when our teammates are doing poorly... There is, again, zero logic in that.

Again it's a bonus, we are not being balanced around it. They've stated this a few times in blue posts every time someone comes in making outrageous claims due to their own misinformed ideas. No reason to get all hissy just cause you dislike something that's not even a consideration towards balancing (outside maybe it's strength in general pvp).

[Schattenlied]

Again it's a bonus, we are not being balanced around it. They've stated this a few times in blue posts every time someone comes in making outrageous claims due to their own misinformed ideas. No reason to get all hissy just cause you dislike something that's not even a consideration towards balancing (outside maybe it's strength in general pvp).

Just because they say they intend for us to not be balanced around it doesn't mean we aren't... They can't put something like that in the game and then ignore it's existence completely, if they did, logically our DPS and survivability wouldn't be so meh.

It's either that or, despite the expansion launching in 21 days, they haven't bothered to tune us really at all yet, which is laughable.

[Chaosinciter]

Just because they say they intend for us to not be balanced around it doesn't mean we aren't... They can't put something like that in the game and then ignore it's existence completely, if they did, logically our DPS and survivability wouldn't be so meh.

Yeah but then you remember we're Ret paladins, we've been getting the short end of the stick for how long now? to me this is just a continuation of the norm in terms of how utterly fucked we get by dispells/spell steals currently with our defensives which is something they should fix (not putting too much hope into that one but hey it could happen).

[Cien]

Yup, zero logic.


You seem to want it to stay for the sake of having a thing there, instead of us being well balanced you would rather have a gimmicky BS mechanic that only properly functions when our teammates are doing poorly... There is, again, zero logic in that.

And yes, it is an interesting concept, but only on paper, in practice it's pointless and detrimental to our being properly balanced... It being a good idea on paper isn't good enough.

take it up with blizzard, i really don't care, they designed the features and that kind of feedback could probably have been done with on the forums sooner, bit late now though right? but i'll go on ahead and enjoy the new ret because its pretty funky, though different, and change is usually nice :3

[Schattenlied]

take it up with blizzard, i really don't care, they designed the features and that kind of feedback could probably have been done with on the forums sooner, bit late now though right?

You say that as if myself and others didn't give exactly that feedback all throughout alpha and beta.

change is usually nice

Usually still means not always, in this case, no.

[Snegovik]

Personally i find the "new changes" to our spec is boring and blend, i find myself literally falling asleep while playing Ret now and the "fun" ability that i look forward using is Holly Wrath...how sad is that? In addition that spell only usable in casual pvp or 2s sometimes, when it comes to 3s or rated RBGs i am afraid i will just fall asleep if game is not over in 10 minutes >.<

P.S. Or maybe its just me getting old and grumpy as in the older days the grass was greener lol....

[Deleted]

... i look forward using is Holly Wrath...how sad is that?..

oh no they have broken sneg! Honey get the gun it is time to end his suffering...

[Charge me Doctor]

It's not an ability that is seriously going to help. It's alright saying we get a damage boost with the boss on 1-2% but remember that we get a 20% boost while someone else got a 100% reduction. Net result is -80% of a person to the raid; this is not a good thing to happen at 1% boss health. It also has the likely result of inflating our damage on progress until we are about ready to kill the boss and people start surviving better.

However, the recent change was a big improvement. The damage reduction is the best part of this passive as something that might have killed a raid member, and might have killed us a few seconds later, now is 30% less damaging. It might just save our arse at the expense of someone who would have died anyway.

Except for when you have bunch of shadow priests

[TEHPALLYTANK]

take it up with blizzard, i really don't care, they designed the features and that kind of feedback could probably have been done with on the forums sooner, bit late now though right? but i'll go on ahead and enjoy the new ret because its pretty funky, though different, and change is usually nice :3

This feedback has been on the forums then entire time they've been screwing around with Ret, they literally had thousands of posts on just the Ret forum providing valid criticism and reasoned feedback. The reason people are starting to get pissed is because all this feedback isn't new, people are just getting fed up with Blizzard ignoring them simply to shove this cluster-fuck of a spec to fulfill their "Spec Fantasy™" down our throats.

They had dozens of pages of posts bringing up Ret's mobility issues, and somehow it took them until fucking 7.0.3 hit the live servers for them to realize that Ret had extremely serious mobility issues. The Ret community had been telling them this the entire fucking time, in a much more reasonable and calm tone than I'm presently using, and they acted like it was some surprise that Derpony was insufficient as a talent. And still the damn spell has major issues for Draenei and Tauren Paladins thanks to the size of their paladin mounts, which also had been clearly outlined as an issue that needed to be addressed during the Legion Beta.

So don't tell people who have been writing bloody essays on the issues the spec that they should've "done it sooner", they did and they were ignored. Blizzard wants you to color in the bloody lines with the colors they give you, and then anyone who doesn't like it can just piss off.

And before anyone tells me something asinine like "You should quit if you don't like the game!", I quit last year. I'm just pissed that they're shitting on the one dps spec my main has, because it completely eliminates any chance of me returning for Legion (Which I want to do, but it would be stupid to buy a game that isn't fun to play).

/endrant

My frustration isn't directed at you specifically, it is just the general assumption that the reason people have failed to have their concerns addressed is that they didn't try the obvious solution. The obvious solution has been tried for months, and it has quite clearly failed. Telling people to flog the dead horse some more just seems to be some rather rude sarcasm, or a significant degree of ignorance on the topic at hand. Hopefully my somewhat...agitated...post conveys some driving reasons behind the more avid advocates of Ret.

[Deleted]

The trait is far from being of any good, specially since u cannot time it well with personal cds or small rotation alterations. Sure as sure is a compliment to having no actual finishing abilities (ie abilities that gonna activate when enemy or ally are at x% of hp) but tbh i would take a proper version of hammer back everyday instead of that trait. Some would say it is of more use for rated pvp (specially after adding the defensive component in) however i would take again a proper version of our hammer back since a neat ranged finishing move would be much more appreciated than this .... tbh would even prefer that thing reducing our hopo cost to only 1 giving the ability to do more damage or dunno allow for the use of vengeance,wog and seals of lolrun more often or at the same time even .... anyways that's my 5 cent and tbh i am really thinkin about tracking the buff or not with my weakauras as it is.

[Snegovik]

oh no they have broken sneg! Honey get the gun it is time to end his suffering...

lol =). I should rename my Ret to something like Bubble-bomb. What made me even sadder is playing DH yest, in my 680-700 ilvl gear my dh had 18% passive speed increase, my Ret so needs that

[Deleted]

It's not an ability that is seriously going to help. It's alright saying we get a damage boost with the boss on 1-2% but remember that we get a 20% boost while someone else got a 100% reduction. Net result is -80% of a person to the raid; this is not a good thing to happen at 1% boss health. It also has the likely result of inflating our damage on progress until we are about ready to kill the boss and people start surviving better.

However, the recent change was a big improvement. The damage reduction is the best part of this passive as something that might have killed a raid member, and might have killed us a few seconds later, now is 30% less damaging. It might just save our arse at the expense of someone who would have died anyway.

How about this buff gets changed into health lost or damage taken taken of up to 4 party members in X yards? So we get up to a certain amount of a damage boost for a certain duration when our allies are harmed by attackers. This would make this buff pro-active because there is no raid/pvp where others do not take damage or loose health. This would still fit into the idea of a retribution paladin and being a rather relevant buff. Since there could be concerns of having more of an unhealthy play, this ability should activate or buff once allies take damage/loose health and when they are healed it should still remain depending on its duration. During a raid that buff would be up during most parts of the fighting and same goes for pvp.

[Deleted]

Would also prove nice lorewise to be able to tank for x time by taking 80% less damage and producing 200% more aggro everytime a tank fell (or an allie fell by a melee attack or dunno effect reduced in pvp maybe whatever) with a forbearance effect attached to it. And ofcourse give a unique niche to ret pallies pve/pvp wise instead of a useless short dps boost or something.

[Cien]

This feedback has been on the forums then entire time they've been screwing around with Ret, they literally had thousands of posts on just the Ret forum providing valid criticism and reasoned feedback. The reason people are starting to get pissed is because all this feedback isn't new, people are just getting fed up with Blizzard ignoring them simply to shove this cluster-fuck of a spec to fulfill their "Spec Fantasy™" down our throats.

They had dozens of pages of posts bringing up Ret's mobility issues, and somehow it took them until fucking 7.0.3 hit the live servers for them to realize that Ret had extremely serious mobility issues. The Ret community had been telling them this the entire fucking time, in a much more reasonable and calm tone than I'm presently using, and they acted like it was some surprise that Derpony was insufficient as a talent. And still the damn spell has major issues for Draenei and Tauren Paladins thanks to the size of their paladin mounts, which also had been clearly outlined as an issue that needed to be addressed during the Legion Beta.

So don't tell people who have been writing bloody essays on the issues the spec that they should've "done it sooner", they did and they were ignored. Blizzard wants you to color in the bloody lines with the colors they give you, and then anyone who doesn't like it can just piss off.

And before anyone tells me something asinine like "You should quit if you don't like the game!", I quit last year. I'm just pissed that they're shitting on the one dps spec my main has, because it completely eliminates any chance of me returning for Legion (Which I want to do, but it would be stupid to buy a game that isn't fun to play).

/endrant

My frustration isn't directed at you specifically, it is just the general assumption that the reason people have failed to have their concerns addressed is that they didn't try the obvious solution. The obvious solution has been tried for months, and it has quite clearly failed. Telling people to flog the dead horse some more just seems to be some rather rude sarcasm, or a significant degree of ignorance on the topic at hand. Hopefully my somewhat...agitated...post conveys some driving reasons behind the more avid advocates of Ret.

im aware of the issues, i main ret, but it just doesn't bother me as much, seal of light is pretty decent for mobility and if i can still chase down mages prior to divine steed becoming base line then im happy with that, its not ideal, its not perfect, but it works, at the end of the day, its just a game and im really enjoying how ret is right now, even if we don't have that cool teleport sword thing we were meant to have originally </3

[Tojara]

It's actually nice on progression regardless of how it's being spun here, the fact you're technically not balanced around it is a net positive, although it's obviously better for your entire raid to live. But realistically that doesn't happen during progression and there are a good number of kills that are pretty chaotic the first time. The added length and damage reduction added is better anyways in my opinion, especially during a chaotic section which would be causing deaths to begin with.

Shadow priests are going to be your friends, and thankfully they are pretty strong, so it's likely they will be common place. Shamans will as well in a sense. Honestly it's not like it's particularly uncommon for raid mechanics to exist that people cheese by just having that person die. Whether they get brought back isn't completely relevant as sometimes it's just flat out planned upon because the net positive of that person being dead (regardless if you can rez them) is seen as easier to deal with. With a retribution paladin it just makes that blow a little bit easier.

I mean on Archimonde, it was pretty common for people to flat out let their tank die up to 4 times during progression as the damage put on the crystal wasn't worth keeping the tank alive (that's 80 seconds of that buff back for the first couple months people were killing it, which is significant up time on a part of the fight which was a DPS race). Mannoroth's last phase is chaotic enough that people die frequently, not to mention that it's pretty common place for you to flat out let a set of people that get feared die at a certain point (whether it be the second or third set, depending on your progression). Velhari healing requirements in the last phase would cause a lot of deaths, and again, it was pretty accepted that the last 2-3 people to get the raid sharing debuff would take a portal just to die. Not uncommon for people to suicide into blackholes on Xhul'Horac either depending on your raid composition, although it would normally only be one at best.

The above examples are just four bosses, but they do happen to be generally the hardest bosses in the instance (I don't know how retribution even works on Gorefiend). It's just not a fair comparison to say that a retribution paladin gaining 20% damage isn't worth losing a full person. Obviously you don't want people to die, but like I said, that isn't realistic during progression nor does progression necessarily demand it. Guilds do plan around deaths, and like highlighted actively put it into their strategy from time to time (and it's not like it's super rare either). Furthermore there are plenty of cases where things are going well and you just aren't using your combat resurrections, so why not kill a healer, bring them back and get a DPS buffed in the meantime?

I understand it won't be a useful trait during farm for getting great numbers, but honestly, who cares about farm? If you care that much about numbers it's incredibly likely that the game of who can get the most uptime on the retribution buff will be played on WCL.