[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

EG team wipes trying to just go for throne and loses a game literally 24 hours after they almost did the exact same thing. Lessons never learned.

They have both their cores up and legitimately lose a 3v4 when they've proven they can kill the bear in under half a second, some real 2k MMR stuff.

[PizzaSHARK]

I don't understand why they don't just fire EE already. It's clear he's not a tier 1 capable carry player. He's too inconsistent. He either plays well or he tilts and begins fEEding hard and you can't do that if you want to win vs tier 1 teams.

[Deleted]

I don't understand why they don't just fire EE already. It's clear he's not a tier 1 capable carry player. He's too inconsistent. He either plays well or he tilts and begins fEEding hard and you can't do that if you want to win vs tier 1 teams.

Secret as a whole isn't a tier 1 team atm (between the TI teams). Their draft often puts them into impossible situations(win before 40 minutes, after you lose the early game), their offlane play is non existent, the support rotations are easily spotted and they often have their carries farm in dangerous situations. Worst of all, they're not a force to be reckoned with. You don't go "omg better ban X or else we lose against secret".

[PizzaSHARK]

Secret as a whole isn't a tier 1 team atm (between the TI teams). Their draft often puts them into impossible situations(win before 40 minutes, after you lose the early game), their offlane play is non existent, the support rotations are easily spotted and they often have their carries farm in dangerous situations. Worst of all, they're not a force to be reckoned with. You don't go "omg better ban X or else we lose against secret".

True. It's like Secret were just left behind some months ago, maybe even years ago. They were at the top but while other teams developed new strategies and methods of play, Secret just stagnated.

That seems to be happening to TL, too. They ran a handful of very similar drafting styles, other teams figured them out and it seems like TL is having a lot of trouble adapting to that. I like TL but I'd much rather see Na'Vi advance. I've really enjoyed Na'Vi's games this year. But maybe that's just my inner Dendi fangay coming out.

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Also, this AnneDroid person is amazing. She should cast all the games ever. So much better than screamy casters like LD and OD.

[Lysah]

Funny how quickly people's opinions change about a person month to month. Half a year ago people were saying Dendi isn't that great and is old news, now people are saying he's one of the best mids in the world again. I wasn't a fan of him at first, back when Navi won TI they didn't really have much competition so I always thought the circlejerking was premature, but now that Dota is a much more competitive game Dendi has proven he is easily one of the best mids in the world, and the rest of Navi is full of great players as well. I think they could easily become a solid t1 team if they just refine their strategy and teamwork a bit, I have high hopes for them.

[PizzaSHARK]

Funny how quickly people's opinions change about a person month to month. Half a year ago people were saying Dendi isn't that great and is old news, now people are saying he's one of the best mids in the world again. I wasn't a fan of him at first, back when Navi won TI they didn't really have much competition so I always thought the circlejerking was premature, but now that Dota is a much more competitive game Dendi has proven he is easily one of the best mids in the world, and the rest of Navi is full of great players as well. I think they could easily become a solid t1 team if they just refine their strategy and teamwork a bit, I have high hopes for them.

My fangayness for Dendi has nothing to do with whether or not he's a good mid or good player in general. He's just a good person, even when things were going awful for his team (which he was tied to like a cat tied to a rock in a river) he was still smiling and still spending time talking to his fans, and... well, he's just a great guy and I'm always happy to see things go well for him. There are several other people like him in the pro Dota scene but Dendi's my favorite of them. Pub dota would probably be a much better place if people looked at guys like Dendi for inspiration and not immature twats like Arteezy. Or not - it'd still be pub dota I guess.

[Deleted]

Pub dota would probably be a much better place if people looked at guys like Dendi for inspiration and not immature twats like Arteezy. Or not - it'd still be pub dota I guess.

I'd be smiling too if i had people paying me for playing with shitheads who are worse than me, already am doing that all the time

[PizzaSHARK]

QO PA building Deso+Vlad's, the same build I've advocated ever since they basically cut Deso's cost in half. Goddamn it's always nice to be proven right.

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lol, PA instagibs Tinker and then instagibs someone else inside their fountain. 1200 range 400 pure damage crits are balanced!

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Definitely don't like the Tinker. You'd think OG would recognize that a PA and Axe and Ogre Magi would indicate aggressive play, especially from a team like MVP who tends to start swinging practically right out of the crib. Sven's actually really good against PA but I don't see how the FV does anything for them since Sven can't do shit to enemies in chrono. Tinker's just too weak if he doesn't get an early game, and PA in particular is REALLY good at dealing with Tinker if he doesn't get a super smooth start.

Looking at the draft it's clear OG just got outdrafted really hard, that PA kind of came out of nowhere and they were left with no solution to it, but last picking Tinker was fucking retarded. Omniknight would've done a lot against MVP's lineup, but I'm not sure where or how they'd lane him - he's an okay mid (literally any hero is an okay mid with bottlecrow...) but I'm not sure how well he'd stack up against Invoker. Then again, Quas/Wex Invoker so a stout or PMS combined with his high base armor and he'd probably be okay. Arguable whether or not Omni should be given that kind of farm/XP priority but I don't think it has to be set in stone and a fast level 7 with manaboots on Omniknight can be incredibly hard to deal with... eating 360 pure damage when you only have 650 HP total kind of hurts.

But maybe that's my Omniknight bias coming through again. Even with how overpowered diffusal blade is I still think he's a really strong pick against a lot of drafts we've been seeing.

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Welp that's it folks, hang up those Secret banners again. Very exciting game to watch but it's kind of pathetic from an analysis standpoint - LGD probably would've won about 20 minutes earlier if they'd just bought a damned rapier since the only thing they were lacking was the instagib potential on Sleight of Fist, but he buys MKB instead and they came pretty damn close to losing the advantage they'd spent all game accruing and maintaining because of it.

Ultimately, Secret loses because EE choked like he usually does. Feeds a dieback, then plays fairly well for a bit, then does something retarded and is saved by Puppey (hurr let's BKB to Sunder someone with a linken's!), then dies at Rosh pit because he forgets he has a BKB, buys back, dies again in a later fight and that's it. I can't imagine how frustrated I would be if I had to routinely play with someone like EE on my team, at least if I was focused/concerned about winning versus just having fun. Choking and derping out is fine in pubs and scrims, but when serious money's on the line and that money is a big part of your sponsorship deals, salary, etc... I dunno.

How long til Secret get rid of EE? He's a skilled player but is far too inconsistent for tier 1 play. I kinda feel like he needs to get on a tier 2 B-string team with teammates who will hammer out his inconsistencies and tendency to begin tilting/choking when things get tense.

Felt really sorry for Puppey and PLD. They both played really well (though Puppey's draft was... questionable) but they couldn't stop the fEEd. MMY! was doing crazy things with that Wyvern pick, definite MVP in my book.

[Lysah]

Seems people are picking Void so that he can chrono the supports and they can focus down the carries, though it rarely seems to actually work out for them like that.

Honestly I still think PA is a trash hero. QO just has unbelievable control over when he gets a crit, it's really something.

I wouldn't blame EE for the Secret loss today at all. Yeah he made mistakes, but so did everyone on the team. It's just easier to see the mistakes EE made because he was literally the only source of damage on his team - if he died they were out of the game until he respawned. RTZ made just as many fuck ups but he was 500 health/second 500 movespeed Alch, you don't notice when he fucks up because he doesn't die for it. RTZ struggled to break linkens for EE at any point in the game and stunned himself or had to manta out of it 90% of the time, he ate arrow after arrow after arrow which forced defensive disruptions on him - allowing wyvern to use her ult without worry that SD would save the target, he died several times like a complete retard (just like EE did) which cost them mid rax to begin with, and he again stunned himself in the final rosh fight that lost them the game.

Go look at every fuck up EE had and I can guarantee if you go back 5 seconds you can see a major fuck up by RTZ. EE made those mistakes because he was put in a hard game by his team to begin with. Yeah, he gets nervous and makes mistakes, if you watched him during the draft the kid was practically shaking he was so nervous, but it's not like everyone else played well. All the people jerking RTZ off need to go back and actually watch the game the second time, because EE never would have been in a position to make his stupid mistakes if RTZ played better. Any time you are the only source of damage on your team it is going to look like the whole game is your fault when you lose - believe me, I am in this position a solid 50%+ of the time I play dota, myself, and I have had plenty of games where my team is 2-34 combined and I am 18-1 and I get picked off once and entire game is my fault. Same thing is happening here with EE, he doesn't deserve it really. All of Secret just got outplayed and they fucked up repeatedly as a team. They are good players but they don't have the cohesion necessary to get past other top teams.

The harder your team makes the game for you, the more you are bound to make mistakes. Not just because of the pressure, but because you have to be FLAWLESS to pull off a win. EE knew he had three 6 slotted carries and a wyvern ult waiting for him every second of the game, all the while he had to somehow focus down all of those heroes by himself without letting any of them escape and without getting basically any help from his team other than maybe a swap and disruption because his team didn't have any decent team fight. At the same time, using meta or BKB at the wrong time can instantly create a loss if the enemy team just backs off and waits it out and then re-engages, something they can VERY easily do with potm/ember on their team, making it even harder to play perfectly.

[Drunkenvalley]

Holy shit, another prediction from Pizzashark that comes after the fact! He's a fucking wizard!

[PizzaSHARK]

Holy shit, another prediction from Pizzashark that comes after the fact! He's a fucking wizard!

What're you talking about? I was advocating Deso-Vlad's PA a year ago, after Deso dropped from 4100 gold to 3500 gold in 6.84. I know I mentioned it here at least a few times and probably got called an idiot because people don't like hearing things that go against conventional wisdom. People would regularly insist Bfury was better even for fighting.



Good points about RTZ Lysah. I think their draft was just kind of weak in general though. They played a greedy "farm the map" Alchemist and a TB on the same team... so how're they going to get the farm they need? It also left very little chance for their supports to get bits of farm here and there, too, so their supports were underfarmed compared to enemy supports. I guess that doesn't matter too much when the Agh's is the only luxury SD wants and VS is just going to explode after ulting in fights anyway, though.

I do remember a lot of times where Alch had to get disrupted etc after eating an arrow or getting caught out, though. Or swapped back to safety which meant Puppey died before the fight really started. I don't remember a self-stun in that last Rosh fight, but mostly I just remember Alch doing fuck all in fights unless he was smacking one of their supports because he had no damage and no fighting items. Which is why I've been saying Manta-Core is a shitty Alch build and people need to stop using it - it was good in previous metas but it's ineffective in this meta, especially since teams have had so much time to play against it and figure out ways of counterplaying it.



It's possible QO manipulates the pRNG to appear to crit more often. Following him in games would probably make it pretty obvious - if he goes off and swings against a creep a few times without a crit to make his next swing more likely to crit. Probably about the only thing that exists towards adding an element of skill to playing PA beyond "don't play her like Leoric, she is not Leoric." People acting like he's some kind of wizard because he plays PA and doesn't wade into fights like a STR hero and instead actually takes advantage of the insane range she has on her daggers and blink.

[Longview]

did you guys know that there's a search thread function on this forum?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5#post34047085
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post31054310

pizzashark being right about pro-level dota, it's a first time experience for me.. humbling really..

[StrawberryZebra]

Like, do people generally believe Pizza to be wrong about stuff?

I'd say its around 50/50, I make sure I read before commenting.

In all seriousness though, its awful quiet around here without Pizza. We won't admit it in public, but we miss him when he's gone.

[PizzaSHARK]

Some pretty good games today. TNC-OG game 2 is amazing.

I don't get why the Ogre Magi are always maxing Ignite first yet still maxing Multicast. I know they want to max Multicast to reduce cd on Bloodlust, but Ignite is so subpar at the pro level. 400 damage is a lot and it basically covers the entire screen even with just 1 pt in Multicast, but it's done over 8 sec and pro teams are going to have wands, they're going to have a Mek, they're going to have Disruption or Fate's Edict (whatever the magic immunity skill is) or Shadow Wave, they're going to have Pipes or Glimmer Capes... pros are just going to have SO many ways to neutralize the damage on Ignite over the course of its duration. You aren't going to see pros burning to death like pubs.

Fireblast has been nerfed repeatedly but I still think it's the only option for a pro team. So many times you'll see an Ogre get a 3x Fireblast on a squishy core like potm and hit her for like 10 damage, it's depressing. A maxed 3x Fireblast will take chunk out of her, even if she's relatively farmed and a multicast Fireblast will absolutely kill heroes that are low on health. Ignite? They'll just get away with a little bit of health left.

It's amusing, I've always advocated the Ignite build but I eventually switched to the Fireblast build (despite how nerfed it is) after just seeing too many times where Ignite let someone get away with low health because it does damage over such a long duration. I'm surprised people watching these games don't see that. Are they even watching the Ogre Magi in fights? I remember focusing on EGM in some of those fights and he did fuck all in fights... hell, even in ganks!... because he basically had nothing productive to do. Buff his teammates, throw out an Ignite that is less and less relevant the later the game goes (Fireblast at least does all of the damage in a burst), and throw out a Fireblast that stuns but does virtually no damage.

How frustrating. I love Son of Chuft but he's being used so ineffectively!

[Lysah]

Is this sarcastic, or genuine? I find it so hard to tell around here. Like, do people generally believe Pizza to be wrong about stuff?

Most people are full autism a la reddit/4chan, I wouldn't doubt it if most of the posters here were regular channies honestly, and like all channies they hate pizza simply because he is outspoken, doesn't matter if he's wrong or not they'll just insist he's always wrong because he says a lot of words. People didn't treat me any differently until they started realizing I am pretty much right 100% of the time and professional players end up copying my builds months after I use them. You'll still see plenty of autists try to argue with me from time to time before disappearing for 6-12 months again.

I do like deso PA, I still really dislike vlads as an item, though. It's way too expensive for a tiny bit of lifesteal, PA already has great armor so that's a waste of gold, PA doesn't really need mana regen so that's a waste of gold, and she isn't a hero that stacks stats so the damage is meh as well. If you want sustain buy a vanguard, you're going to want abyssal in your first 3 items anyway 90% of the time. People need to stop buying it on AM as well.

Side note, I don't think QO actually tries to force crits, I haven't paid attention though, I think the kid just has some ungodly luck getting RNG when it counts. Though, as the analysts (forget who it was specifically) pointed out, if you keep playing aggressively and push engagements hard you are bound to get "lucky" eventually, maybe even 15% of the time.

I think the problem with fireblast vs ignite is that ignite just does...literally double the damage? In a given team fight you know there's a pretty solid chance you only get off one of each spell, so it makes sense to max the one that does more damage. Ogre typically dies immediately because, despite how insanely tanky he is, he is still slow, has no escape mechanism, and his only CC is basically melee range now. A hero like Drow just auto-wins against him now. Pesronally I see more and more merit into not even leveling fireblast at all until late game, it's just been nerfed so hard. Multicast would still be better than +2 stats.

Also I agree about the draft, Pizza, honestly I have been thinking to myself (and others) if Puppey is actually the weak link at Secret. He got such a big reputation as the king of drafing that we don't really question his decisions anymore and assume he just has a smart plan we can't understand...but is that really the truth. His drafts have seemed very weak lately and most Secret losses that I have seen they were simply outpicked from the start. When they have good drafts they win, as their Huskar stomps in the group stages showed, it's just that they very often do not have good drafts. The analysts were even saying alch/TB was absolutely insane and yet few people want to blame Puppey's drafting for that loss. Something to think about for sure, maybe the guy is just getting old and outdated.

[PizzaSHARK]

Ignite does about double the damage but it does it over a lengthy period of time. I usually see Ogre managing to get a few spells off in a fight, he's basically ignored because he does nothing productive in fights unless he gets Fireblast "crits", and that's only if he has max Fireblast. Ogre is capable of being pretty dangerous but it requires max Fireblast and then Veil, Agh's, etc, and he'll never get that farm in a pro game. He'd probably also then need blink because it's pro and if you don't have blink you're a loser, I mean people are buying blink even on fucking Wisp.

Fireblast build has a 40/50/60% chance to do a bit more damage than an Ignite and at least 25% to do a lot more. 660 damage is a lot of damage, even in the late game, especially when it's being rolled every 6 sec. Ignite never, ever does more damage. It's not even a good wave clear because it takes 8 seconds to do its thing.

Ogre is in a tough spot. Fireblast needs to get some of its damage back, but that might be too much combined with how retardedly tanky he is. I don't see Fireblast as being a good skill but in the pro environment, where you're only gonna get a couple spells off in a given fight, I think it's a lot better to take a shot at getting a huge Fireblast "crit" than to do a little bit of damage over time.

[Lysah]

I think it's a lot better to take a shot at getting a huge Fireblast "crit" than to do a little bit of damage over time.

I guess that's a matter of opinion, I would want to say the pros have probably thought more about this than either of us have, but they do a lot of stuff that shows they clearly don't think about a lot of things. Take a look at all the morphling's buying linken's just because "that's what morphling buys!" Fear buys linken's yesterday in a game where there is literally nothing to block, and I hate to criticize the legend fear darkness himself, father of NA dota savior of the western scene god of position 1 but it was just stupid and his morphling had zero impact the entire game and they probably would have lost if sumail wasn't going berserk with the saw. You can say "but the skywrath silence!" except they can EASILY break linkens before silence with skywrath's Q or oracle's massive range instant cast spells, and a manta saves you from silence as well but also makes you less pitifully slow AND adds more illusions to the AIDS that was their shadow demon/replicate strat. Not to mention they were literally always saving it for sumail. Not very well thought out at all.

@Everything Nice
That's for the best. Bfury PA only works if you farm it quickly. It's a farm-boosting item, there are several of those (mask of madness, midas, vlads for some heroes, manta, BoT) but it only works if you build it quickly. If it takes you 20 minutes to farm a midas, you get fewer uses out of it and less gold return, right? Same concept applies with battlefury and a lot of people don't seem to understand that. If it takes you 25-30 minutes to complete it, you won't have time to use it to farm up other items and will have lost the game already.

I recommend my early game fighting build in almost any game. Go phase+aquila+HoD+drums and then look at what you need from there. All of these items have very efficient damage for the gold cost and give you a lot of other benefits as well, primarily health that you badly need, and then if you still need damage you can go deso, or you can go for BKB, or SY if you just need to be more PA overall, or basher>abyssal.

PA is an early game hero. She needs to be fighting early and killing people before her evasion starts to get countered by MKB. Look at QO, the only person to have any success with PA whatsoever - he rushes deso and ends the game in 30 minutes.

[Bonsaii]

Oh I thought Voidies got the masks for the attack speed during early chronos?

But yeah I barely ever build midas unless im playing AD and have Arc Warden ultimate ( Doube midas ftw!) otherwise I never feel I get enough out of it to warrant having no real items early on. I like BF regardless on void though for the cleave on chronos

I'm in the Dota stats discord and one of the main tenets of stat people is "Fuck Midas." The item is generally game losing.

If you're playing PA, I usually go phase, vanguard, deso and just pressure into 30 minute GG's like Lysah said.

[Lysah]

I don't dislike midas as an item, I think pubs tend to way overbuy it or they buy it too late. I consider it 100% core on heroes like Invoker, but heroes like Slark should NEVER buy it for the most part, and yet tons of pub Invokers don't buy it and every pub slark does...go figure.

Mask of madness on Void used to be good, but then he got reworked and he's not really carry material anymore. For the first time in 12 years I actually consider him pretty balanced.

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EHOME EG game 1 might be one of the best games of dota of all time

[Chromell]

EHOME EG game 1 might be one of the best games of dota of all time

It was pretty damn good!