Resto Druid Artifact Priority Pathway

[Sprucelee]

Seems like people just refuse to acknowledge that the initial raid content does not really give significant value to the movement portion of Tranquil Mind. There seems to be this "but yeah, moving with tranq is cool!" effect, even if it has been shown to be unneeded initially when this early path decision matters.

With that in mind, I would still give a slight edge to the 20% boost to Tranquil mind (when just comparing the golds), but the traits preceding PoTA are clearly stronger. That slight edge from the 20% boost to Tranq versus the extra healing via PoTA is easily overcome by the stronger talents preceding it IMO.

[masterhorus8]

Seems like people just refuse to acknowledge that the initial raid content does not really give significant value to the movement portion of Tranquil Mind. There seems to be this "but yeah, moving with tranq is cool!" effect, even if it has been shown to be unneeded initially when this early path decision matters.

With that in mind, I would still give a slight edge to the 20% boost to Tranquil mind (when just comparing the golds), but the talents preceding PoTA are clearly stronger. That slight edge from the 20% boost to Tranq versus the extra healing via PoTA is easily overcome by the stronger talents preceding it IMO.

But...moving and tranqing IS cool. :P

[Crewsix]

Seems like people just refuse to acknowledge that the initial raid content does not really give significant value to the movement portion of Tranquil Mind. There seems to be this "but yeah, moving with tranq is cool!" effect, even if it has been shown to be unneeded initially when this early path decision matters.

With that in mind, I would still give a slight edge to the 20% boost to Tranquil mind (when just comparing the golds), but the talents preceding PoTA are clearly stronger. That slight edge from the 20% boost to Tranq versus the extra healing via PoTA is easily overcome by the stronger talents preceding it IMO.

For players with good positioning that is especially true. But for those who do not have great positioning or reaction times then maybe tranq on the move provides more value

[Pennoyer]

You need to consider your path for both raids and dungeons, as you will be supplementing your raid gear with Mythic+ dungeon gear. The number of pieces and the item level of the gear you get is determined by your ability to heal high level mythic+ dungeons in those first few weeks after it unlocks with EM. If you suck at dungeons you'll get less raid-level gear than other healers on your server, and that will have a bigger impact on your progression than a 1% on something here and there via artifact talents.

Part of all this hoopla about druid healing is the strength of Tranquility--adding 20% on top of that and the potential for taking Inner Peace is what will buy a resto druid's spot in raids when Shamans can otherwise push out just as much raid healing AND bring some nice utility (SLT, APT or AV, Wind Rush). Tranquil Mind will be critical to take.

I believe Infusion (especially after it's nerf) and Persistence (lol Rejuv overheal) are overvalued, and Power of the Archdruid is pretty crappy compared to the other two. I'll be going along the top and middle paths to Dreamwalker and Tranquil Mind first, and then hit POTA with a relatively low cost of 88k AP for the third major trait.

[Sprucelee]

I am guilty of running around with Tranq, just because I can (even if it is unneeded)! So I get it, it is neat

It's just my experience that anything that increases mana regeneration or HPM is the best path in a constrained environment. That has always been the case at launch. Throughput versus sustainability was always an easy decision favoring the latter, it was only until scaling and trinkets overcame it on enough pieces of gear that we could reliably swap in other spots that had the least relative value (like gems). Legion looks like this may never happen, and we will look to maximize any and every gain from start to finish.

- - - Updated - - -

You need to consider your path for both raids and dungeons, as you will be supplementing your raid gear with Mythic+ dungeon gear. The number of pieces and the item level of the gear you get is determined by your ability to heal high level mythic+ dungeons in those first few weeks after it unlocks with EM. If you suck at dungeons you'll get less raid-level gear than other healers on your server, and that will have a bigger impact on your progression than a 1% on something here and there via artifact talents.

Part of all this hoopla about druid healing is the strength of Tranquility--adding 20% on top of that and the potential for taking Inner Peace is what will buy a resto druid's spot in raids when Shamans can otherwise push out just as much raid healing AND bring some nice utility (SLT, APT or AV, Wind Rush). Tranquil Mind will be critical to take.

I believe Infusion (especially after it's nerf) and Persistence (lol Rejuv overheal) are overvalued, and Power of the Archdruid is pretty crappy compared to the other two. I'll be going along the top and middle paths to Dreamwalker and Tranquil Mind first, and then hit POTA with a relatively low cost of 88k AP for the third major trait.

If you are going to start claiming increasing the HPC/HPM on rejuvenation is just overhealing, and then assume full benefit to 20% extra healing on Tranq, I can't take you seriously. These kind of disconnected arguments fall flat, framing every situation to fit your choice is bad TC, just assume no overhealing for both and go from there. Well unless you are really that bad with who you target...

As for raid spots, my goal is for maximum potential for killing dragons, which includes more than a myopic "but 20% to our CD every 2-3 minutes!". So I guess I just disagree, mainly from experience over the years, but TP versus sustain has always been tricky to TC. If you feel this kind of subjective pressure from your guild for a spot, and are incapable of discussing beyond the simplicity of raid CDs with your guild, then IDK.

[Nythiz]

Seems like people just refuse to acknowledge that the initial raid content does not really give significant value to the movement portion of Tranquil Mind. There seems to be this "but yeah, moving with tranq is cool!" effect, even if it has been shown to be unneeded initially when this early path decision matters.

With that in mind, I would still give a slight edge to the 20% boost to Tranquil mind (when just comparing the golds), but the traits preceding PoTA are clearly stronger. That slight edge from the 20% boost to Tranq versus the extra healing via PoTA is easily overcome by the stronger talents preceding it IMO.

Maybe. But from what I've seen being able to move during tranq in some of the mythic+ dungeons will prove to be extremely strong.

And yes, Tranquil Mind can partially be overcome by having solid positioning. But surely we've all been in a situation where some kind of RNG (be it ability or whatever) forcing you to move.
I mean if you just look at a lot of the encounters in WoD there is such an event in nearly every encounter.

However an important factor (which you mention as well) is the fact that ideally you want Tranquil Mind and the minor traits (mainly persistence) before PotA as soon as possible.
Getting TM first and PotA second, will mean you need less points to pick up TM + Persistence; as oppose to going for PotA first and then TM.

I think that a lot is going to depend on playstyle preference and your intended approach of end game at level 110 as well.
I think that Tranquil Mind before PotA is a stronger play for mythic+ dungeons, where I feel like the mana conservation and rejuv extention aren't as important as in raids (where persistence leads to better raid coverage).
In raids it'll be harder; if the fights do not require mobility during tranq (as you mention) than there might be a good case for picking up the minor traits before PotA first.

Also moving while tranqing simply is cool

[Caanrial]

Think about this: how do you heal in MoP today? You have *every* dungeon and raid memorized, probably down to the second. You know exactly where to stand and exactly how many adds are going to come from precisely which direction. The question is, how long did it take you to get to this point? I think that should drive your choices more than sims.

I've played a druid since vanilla, and found that I was very gear-capped early on in every expac. Meaning, until I got good gear I was always behind every other class on the meters (both boomy and resto). My choices will be driven by my own experiences in how fast I can memorize every dung/raid and how quick I can upgrade my gear. If it takes a bit longer than normal, I would go for more mana and higher output. If it looks like it's going quick I would go for raid utility first. Just something else to consider...

Wish I could be cool and run around with tranq midichlorians floating around me /cry

[theburned]

Seems like people just refuse to acknowledge that the initial raid content does not really give significant value to the movement portion of Tranquil Mind. There seems to be this "but yeah, moving with tranq is cool!" effect, even if it has been shown to be unneeded initially when this early path decision matters.

With that in mind, I would still give a slight edge to the 20% boost to Tranquil mind (when just comparing the golds), but the traits preceding PoTA are clearly stronger. That slight edge from the 20% boost to Tranq versus the extra healing via PoTA is easily overcome by the stronger talents preceding it IMO.

Elerethe renferal proved to be very hard to outplay the tranq, both for me and other raiders.
On ursoc how exactly are you going to outplay it when you can get a tranq every 3rd (5th if you for some reason dont pick inner peace on this fight.) and you are supposed to get every 2nd focused gaze.
If either me or our RL assigns the 2nd resto druid to specific gazes and he replies "well my tranq will get cancelled" I sure as hell will ask for him to be replaced for a shaman/hpala, but I am quite certain he's not that stupid.
Dragons even has several issues, with knockbacks/clouds/roots/fears with the trait you got knockbacks, clouds and roots pretty much covered, where are you planning to get out your tranq otherwise, granted tranq isnt such a strong spell on this fight though.
Cenarius several mechanics you want to avoid, things you should get into, restricting your tranq usage doesnt help you a lot.
On xavius this trait brings roughly 4-5% throughput bonus, and its such a hectic fight when you want to get out 5 tranqs where you cant really afford any of them to be cancelled. You should probably have persistence by this point and the extra mana isnt that necessary considering how much mana you are given during the fight.

Please enlighten me, how are you going to outplay these mechanics without being a serious liability to your raid?

Additionally I found mana constraints far easier to outplay than any positioning requirement done by tranq.

Aswell as the minor traits can be covered by relics, tranquil mind can not.

[Nythiz]

Elerethe renferal proved to be very hard to outplay the tranq, both for me and other raiders.
On ursoc how exactly are you going to outplay it when you can get a tranq every 3rd (5th if you for some reason dont pick inner peace on this fight.) and you are supposed to get every 2nd focused gaze.
If either me or our RL assigns the 2nd resto druid to specific gazes and he replies "well my tranq will get cancelled" I sure as hell will ask for him to be replaced for a shaman/hpala, but I am quite certain he's not that stupid.
Dragons even has several issues, with knockbacks/clouds/roots/fears with the trait you got knockbacks, clouds and roots pretty much covered, where are you planning to get out your tranq otherwise, granted tranq isnt such a strong spell on this fight though.
Cenarius several mechanics you want to avoid, things you should get into, restricting your tranq usage doesnt help you a lot.
On xavius this trait brings roughly 4-5% throughput bonus, and its such a hectic fight when you want to get out 5 tranqs where you cant really afford any of them to be cancelled. You should probably have persistence by this point and the extra mana isnt that necessary considering how much mana you are given during the fight.

Please enlighten me, how are you going to outplay these mechanics without being a serious liability to your raid?

Additionally I found mana constraints far easier to outplay than any positioning requirement done by tranq.

Aswell as the minor traits can be covered by relics, tranquil mind can not.

Pretty much this.

A good and/or experienced resto druid (which I guess most of us generally are in these type of discussions) will learn a fight well enough to be able to bypass a lot of mechanics in an encounter and use Tranq optimally.

But most of us also know that there are always random mechanics (be it CC, be it something like a feldog on archimonde that blinks on you while you tranq, etc);
or simply set mechanics you can't avoid (several theburned mentioned; we had several in WoD too, such as the Demolition mechanic on Blackhand phase 1), where Tranquil Mind can have a big impact.

I don't know enough about the legion raid encounters yet (especially since i'm not in beta) to strongly agree or disagree on those points. But in such a case I think the added utility (on top of the +20% healing) make TM a really solid trait. And as much as you can learn to make optimal use of a static Tranq, you can also learn to make optimal use of the mana pool you have.

It's just my experience that anything that increases mana regeneration or HPM is the best path in a constrained environment. That has always been the case at launch. Throughput versus sustainability was always an easy decision favoring the latter, it was only until scaling and trinkets overcame it on enough pieces of gear that we could reliably swap in other spots that had the least relative value (like gems). Legion looks like this may never happen, and we will look to maximize any and every gain from start to finish.

I generally agree. But that depends a bit on how mana is going to feel in Legion.

In WoD and pretty much every expansion before that, you started out with horrible mana regen because of the somewhat exponential scaling to your healing power (both regen and throughput scaled; whereas fights tend to scale more linearly). If you started with decent mana regen, you'd scale the mana regen into the insane levels; so they HAD to start at a horrible state.
In legion the mana regen scaling is mostly gone; so they can start you at a level that should be much worse than what we're used to end of WoD, but also quite a bit better than normally at the start of an expansion.

That would reduce the dire need for the mana regen talents somewhat. They're still really solid, but they shouldn't have as big of an impact as they did at the start of previous expansions.
(Though it wouldn't surprise me if blizzard missed the ball on this yet again)

[Sprucelee]

Elerethe renferal proved to be very hard to outplay the tranq, both for me and other raiders.
On ursoc how exactly are you going to outplay it when you can get a tranq every 3rd (5th if you for some reason dont pick inner peace on this fight.) and you are supposed to get every 2nd focused gaze.
If either me or our RL assigns the 2nd resto druid to specific gazes and he replies "well my tranq will get cancelled" I sure as hell will ask for him to be replaced for a shaman/hpala, but I am quite certain he's not that stupid.
Dragons even has several issues, with knockbacks/clouds/roots/fears with the trait you got knockbacks, clouds and roots pretty much covered, where are you planning to get out your tranq otherwise, granted tranq isnt such a strong spell on this fight though.
Cenarius several mechanics you want to avoid, things you should get into, restricting your tranq usage doesnt help you a lot.
On xavius this trait brings roughly 4-5% throughput bonus, and its such a hectic fight when you want to get out 5 tranqs where you cant really afford any of them to be cancelled. You should probably have persistence by this point and the extra mana isnt that necessary considering how much mana you are given during the fight.

Please enlighten me, how are you going to outplay these mechanics without being a serious liability to your raid?

Additionally I found mana constraints far easier to outplay than any positioning requirement done by tranq.

Aswell as the minor traits can be covered by relics, tranquil mind can not.

I will be doubling back on normal this week, but my experience does not match yours.

For instance, your description of Ursoc doesn't fit mine. Why would you be using tranq during Focused Gaze? You would be using it on the recovery period after taking Trampling damage, which occurs at the end of the charge. It is very easy to tranq without moving during this recovery period.... Similarly, if the raid needed topping off before Focus goes out, I saw no issues. Additionally, the damage from Cacophony is significant on its own to make Tranq useful. I personally will have to see more of Mythic before deciding what areas are truly the most dangerous, but regardless, I never was never very concerned with movement during Tranq.

I have similar opinions for your other fights, you are just throwing our "general concerns" with those, but every fight in every tier has those and I have always worked around them. Yes, Xavius is not a mana concern, so good point on the PoTA leading traits not mattering there. Dragons is the one fight that truly concerns me (I have already said that).

Anyway, I am still contemplating the decision It is a very transient one anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much this.

A good and/or experienced resto druid (which I guess most of us generally are in these type of discussions) will learn a fight well enough to be able to bypass a lot of mechanics in an encounter and use Tranq optimally.

But most of us also know that there are always random mechanics (be it CC, be it something like a feldog on archimonde that blinks on you while you tranq, etc);
or simply set mechanics you can't avoid (several theburned mentioned; we had several in WoD too, such as the Demolition mechanic on Blackhand phase 1), where Tranquil Mind can have a big impact.

I don't know enough about the legion raid encounters yet (especially since i'm not in beta) to strongly agree or disagree on those points. But in such a case I think the added utility (on top of the +20% healing) make TM a really solid trait. And as much as you can learn to make optimal use of a static Tranq, you can also learn to make optimal use of the mana pool you have.



I generally agree. But that depends a bit on how mana is going to feel in Legion.

In WoD and pretty much every expansion before that, you started out with horrible mana regen because of the somewhat exponential scaling to your healing power (both regen and throughput scaled; whereas fights tend to scale more linearly). If you started with decent mana regen, you'd scale the mana regen into the insane levels; so they HAD to start at a horrible state.
In legion the mana regen scaling is mostly gone; so they can start you at a level that should be much worse than what we're used to end of WoD, but also quite a bit better than normally at the start of an expansion.

That would reduce the dire need for the mana regen talents somewhat. They're still really solid, but they shouldn't have as big of an impact as they did at the start of previous expansions.
(Though it wouldn't surprise me if blizzard missed the ball on this yet again)

They like how mana feels early in expansions. Go read some of Hamlets old discussions, that "feel" was always relished (myself included!), and now he is basically guiding healing in legion. I anticipate it feeling much like first tiers have in the past, but now through the end of the expansion with very moderate scaling (linear and controlled strictly with trinkets that do not go overboard like WoD)... Maybe it will not be on the level of Imperator (ugh, was a bit much), which was more about conserving for 3/4 of the fight to play the last 1/4, but hopefully like the more typical first tiers.

[theburned]

I will be doubling back on normal this week, but my experience does not match yours.

For instance, your description of Ursoc doesn't fit mine. Why would you be using tranq during Focused Gaze? You would be using it on the recovery period after taking Trampling damage, which occurs at the end of the charge. It is very easy to tranq without moving during this recovery period.... Similarly, if the raid needed topping off before Focus goes out, I saw no issues. Additionally, the damage from Cacophony is significant on its own to make Tranq useful. I personally will have to see more of Mythic before deciding what areas are truly the most dangerous, but regardless, I never was never very concerned with movement during Tranq.

I have similar opinions for your other fights, you are just throwing our "general concerns" with those, but every fight in every tier has those and I have always worked around them. Yes, Xavius is not a mana concern, so good point on the PoTA leading traits not mattering there. Dragons is the one fight that truly concerns me (I have already said that).

Anyway, I am still contemplating the decision It is a very transient one anyway.

For the first one I do agree that you could've gotten away with using it after, but on the consecutive ones, you kinda want that healing as early as possible without resulting in overhealing, so in case the damage from roaring cacophony isnt properly healed up you will get to those targets aswell, and you should get out the first tick on people hit by momentum aswell. I would check the logs from the recent testing, but they are private and I'm not part of that guild so I cant even check them myself.

But most of the time as long as no tranq ticks are majorly wasted, having at least 1 tick incoming prior to the damage spike can be very useful to prevent deaths, even though it might result in slightly lower HPS.

Also it feels quite a bit safer, if you get tranquil mind first you will have infusion of nature at the same point as you would have dreamwalker with the PotA build, and can then work towards the really good minor traits, so you will feel a steady progress, you're not going to feel like you fall totally short becaue rejuvs is 1-3 seconds shorter, or having a few less rejuvs to work with, you will just adjust your playstyle a little bit. Tranquil mind just provides that guarantee that you will get off a good tranq when you want it without being interrupted by any RNG, or having to not use it when you want to because of a mechanic which knocks you back or forces you to move.

[Sprucelee]

Yeah, I still have not decided, but Mythic+ is what might push me over the edge into TM (and the fact that it removes any concern in raids, as discussed). Purely for Mythic+, it is the better route. Good discussion, I like looking at all the angles

[Wild]

Hi there, great thread!
I would love to know about PVP path of the artifact! I am looking for a path for all PVP, EXEPT pure arena!
Would this be a good example?
http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc...CKAQiwEIwDU3AQ
I dont see the big use of the Major Traits, or am I wrong?
Pleasesome feedback! Thank you a lot.

[Pennoyer]

If you are going to start claiming increasing the HPC/HPM on rejuvenation is just overhealing, and then assume full benefit to 20% extra healing on Tranq, I can't take you seriously. These kind of disconnected arguments fall flat, framing every situation to fit your choice is bad TC, just assume no overhealing for both and go from there. Well unless you are really that bad with who you target...

Is this real? Are you seriously ignoring the healing/life-saving Tranq will do with an upfront with a 20% buff, despite the fact that this spell is carrying so many resto druid pulls in Emerald Nightmare and Nighthold?

Just to clarify, this is not the HTT talent that Shamans have in case you are confusing artifact talents. This is not a situation where the last tick HTT will be doing more healing than the first tick after building stacks from the artifact trait. I'm assuming this is what is going on here.

If you want to take the piece of shit POTA talent, then go ahead. People who will be clearing Mythic 9 will be doing otherwise and scoring 865-895 gear, rather than being last in their guild at Legion healing despite resto druid's theoretical OPness (I wouldn't be surprised if you're behind the others in your guild on healing. If you are, you should think about why that's the case).

[Sprucelee]

Is this real? Are you seriously ignoring the healing/life-saving Tranq will do with an upfront with a 20% buff, despite the fact that this spell is carrying so many resto druid pulls in Emerald Nightmare and Nighthold?

Just to clarify, this is not the HTT talent that Shamans have in case you are confusing artifact talents. This is not a situation where the last tick HTT will be doing more healing than the first tick after building stacks from the artifact trait. I'm assuming this is what is going on here.

If you want to take the piece of shit POTA talent, then go ahead. People who will be clearing Mythic 9 will be doing otherwise and scoring 865-895 gear, rather than being last in their guild at Legion healing despite resto druid's theoretical OPness (I wouldn't be surprised if you're behind the others in your guild on healing. If you are, you should think about why that's the case).

/yawn

You clearly have the reading comprehension of a third grader. Move on.

[Tiberria]

I mean, the real benefit to going to Dreamwalker/Tranquil Mind first is because it gets you 2 major traits in 16 points instead of 19 points. It also gives you better major traits sooner. Even if you discount the moving portion of Tranquil Mind, a 20% buff to Tranq during progression is still a pretty big deal, and this is reliable burst throughput when you need it the most. It's our best major trait by far; the other 2 majors are plagued by being locked behind RNG and are nowhere near as reliable.

Power of the Arch Druid is the weakest of the 3 traits by far. You're basically locked behind double RNG for that trait. It only has a 25% chance to proc, and then when it does proc, it cleaves the Rejuv/RG to 2 random targets within 15 yards, so you also have the RNG of whether it cleaves the targets that you want. Even if the traits moving to it are somewhat stronger, you're plagued by taking the worst major trait first, and then not getting a second one until much later.

Dreamwalker is similarly RNG dependent with a 50% proc rate, and no guarantee that you will have a huge amount of Rejuv coverage out (given mana constraints at 110) when it does proc.

The strength and reliability of Tranquil Mind relative to our other two majors is the real reason you definitely want it before raids open; the mobile Tranq is just a perk.

[theburned]

It cleaves the Rejuv/RG to 2 random targets within 15 yards.

Now also cleaves germination, just tested that it works.
(not so much a correction to your statement rather than general information.)

[Weissrolf]

Two traits heavily based on RNG and stat specs shifting towards Crit. I don't like that in generall, and specifically it may shift me towards TM for its reliability.

And seeing how I don't care so much for two of the major traits, which of the lesser traits are considered "mandatory" or highly thought after? I may even ignore the golden ones I don't like in return for getting more of the useful lesser ones.

[masterhorus8]

Two traits heavily based on RNG and stat specs shifting towards Crit. I don't like that in generall, and specifically it may shift me towards TM for its reliability.

And seeing how I don't care so much for two of the major traits, which of the lesser traits are considered "mandatory" or highly thought after? I may even ignore the golden ones I don't like in return for getting more of the useful lesser ones.

The consensus from another thread was that the Persistence minor trait was the best one, and I think followed by Grovewalker. Some people in here have argued against a 20% duration increase on rejuv in favor of going for the Tranquil Mind trait.

[Tiberria]

The Persistence trait is the strongest minor trait on paper. However, I think that the 15-18 second ticks of Rejuv tend to inherently be less valuable in a lot of cases than ealier ticks, because of the additional propensity to overheal and how long the 18 second duration is. I think looking at things assuming 100% effective healing probably makes Persistence look stronger than it really is. With that in mind, I don't think Persistence is strong enough to warrant the most efficient path in terms of getting major traits. Also, most artifact power calculators estimate that we should have 22 traits before raids open. If you go to Dreamwalker then back to Tranquil Mind, you will still have 3/3 Persistence for week 1 of raiding.

You could argue that the mana reduction traits are worth bypassing the min max of major traits, but I don't agree with that either. The 3/3 6% Wild Growth mana reduction trait is actually an extremely weak trait relative to almost anything else along the paths to the major traits. It's a fairly trivial mana savings. Knowledge of the Ancients is the one really strong trait that you won't have for week 1 of raiding if you follow the Dreamwalker/Tranquil Mind path, and 6% total mana regen is significant. However, I still don't think it's good enough to warrant taking a weak major first and having less majors. You can work around having less regen by having more throughput on the spells you do cast if you're smart about it. You should be able to get Knowledge of the Artifacts at 3/3 by about week 4-5 of raids.