Alliance vs Horde wounds reopened over a misunderstanding?

[Wyrt]

In the cinematic there wasn't that many anymore.

And? There's no way the Alliance could have defeated them.

Also where was Khadgar?!

Neither was Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, Moira, Muradin, or Falstad.

It seems some leaders realized the Broken Shore was a trap and didn't go there to throw their lives away.

[Volendrung]

The faction-war will mostly be fuelled by Genn and Jaina.
Those two already hate the Horde and just love this excuse to fight them.

Uh, you spelled "Mal'Ganis" wrong.

[Berethos08]

It's an extremely forced conflict, yes, and even if Jaina/Genn are dreadlords, then it's still forced. It's blatantly obvious that Sylvanas had to retreat, Thrall was on his face, Vol'jin was dead and there were hundreds of demons wrecking her rear flank. They were all dead if they had stayed.

So ya, it's just Genn/Jaina being utterly stupid and/or suicidal, or they're dreadlords. Terrible writing.

Blatantly obvious to Sylvanas that she needed to retreat if the Horde wasn't to lose all of its leaders in a single battle, yes. While she technically had the choice to fight to the last, she felt it was the better option to save herself and others (for one who has typically been all about herself and the Forsaken, its an interesting development), which makes it a more compelling story element when combined with everything else.

That said, it's not information the Alliance has, and the two factions aren't exactly quick sit down and chat with each other at the best of times, so it's not information that's going to be readily available to the Alliance either...

So an understandable sense of additional tension (unless you're a blind fanboy that thinks the "obviously right actions of the Horde should be obvious to anyone, including those who couldn't see the reasons it was the right call, oh and they should obviously go and calmly ask the person they thought just got their king killed just to see if maybe they were wrong and dear god it sounds like bad Horde fan fiction by this point..."), throw in the two whose own experiences have soured them the most on the Horde in general...

And you have a source of conflict between that two that, for fucking once, actually makes bloody sense.

[Omians]

And? There's no way the Alliance could have defeated them.



Neither was Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen, Moira, Muradin, or Falstad.

It seems some leaders realized the Broken Shore was a trap and didn't go there to throw their lives away.

They thought it was a small force and not an army. They didnt bring all their forces

[Magnagarde]

Varian saved the entire Alliance leadership by stopping the fel reaver. His death was heroic. Vol'jin got injured and ordered Sylvannas to save the Horde. Characters are not omniscient and they cannot read eachothers intentions when it comes to the storyline. This is why I can totally understand why the Alliance leadership that survived understands this as a Horde trap to get them all killed. Simply imagine yourself looking up to a cliff to see your allies in your most dire moment, only to see them retreat and only to hear a horn ordering retreat.

Sylvannas had to do what her warchief ordered her to do, but besides that, I am pretty sure she would do the same if the order was hers to make. What she could've done is to order one of her Val'kyr to try to save Varian aswell, just like she saved each single Horde leader. They were right up a cliff overseeing Varian.

What amazes me the most is is the following; it is hard for me to believe that the two biggest factions on Azeroth had such a poor escape plan.

I totally understand why the Alliance feels betrayed and I totally understand why Sylvannas did what she did. Poor planning, lack of communication and this is what you get - a misunderstanding that reinvigorates the old conflict. They should've preplanned when they will retreat and they should've had a proper retreat plan.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought it was good story telling. Having a conflict over obvious reasons is boring. When there's a misunderstanding, there's depth to it and potential for forgiveness. It also offers a story to each side, rather than one.

I totally agree. With this they've gone back to the good old non-linear storytelling to some extent.

[Wyrt]

They thought it was a small force and not an army. They didnt bring all their forces

Another reason to retreat when they realized it wasn't a small force.

[Magnagarde]

Another reason to retreat when they realized it wasn't a small force.

The cinematics made the Alliance and Horde look like boyscout battalions. No escape plan, no communication and half the major faces absent. As soon as things got halted, they all ran their own way.

[Asotcha]

Not sure how much you know about warfare buddy but most battles where the King dies have almost always resulted in retreat/abandonment throughout history. Cutting off the head of the body leaves a spasming aimless mass of nothing intelligent.

Must...resist...playerbase joke

Jaina is a good character but let's not go down that road. Why isn't she fighting at the broken shore??? Where is she in all this?

Wait, she Isn't there? She was there every time I did this on Beta--I haven't done it on Live yet. She even makes an ice bridge for the army to cross to get past a couple of ravines. She helped us fight and was casting Blizzard on demons and everything. Even had a couple of lines. If it isn't a bug where she just didn't appear to a few people by mistake, then they went to a healthy amount of work very recently to remove her. I wonder wtf is going on here.

[Magnagarde]

Wait, she Isn't there? She was there every time I did this on Beta--I haven't done it on Live yet. She even makes an ice bridge for the army to cross to get past a couple of ravines. She helped us fight and was casting Blizzard on demons and everything. Even had a couple of lines. If it isn't a bug where she just didn't appear to a few people by mistake, then they went to a healthy amount of work very recently to remove her. I wonder wtf is going on here.

I guess s/he meant the cinematic, not the actual gameplay. She is present during the quest and in the game, but is absent from the cinematic.

[Krazzorx]

Warcraft is not supposed to be an artistic masterpiece. It is something though that they want people to be passionate about. Keeping the conflict going does that excellently even though it's Ofc not a way to write a smart story

[Deleted]

Just because your leader is wounded or killed in battle, is not reason to flee the battle entirely and leave your allies with no support, support which they rely on.

The Entire Horde would have been completely wiped out if they stayed and fought though. Alliance wouldn't have retreated either, Varian thought they were winning, so all those Legion reinforcements (and that megafelreaver) would have killed them all as well. So both factions were saved and it's pushing what is at the core of the story alongside fighting Demons. The war between Alliance and the Horde.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

attacking an enemy without the backup of your own archers is stupid, everyone who has played any strategy game knows this, Varyan is supposed to be a master strategist, yet somehow he forgot that

I wouldn't say "HE" forgot anything. Blizz simplified it all as a plot point. They needed Sylvanas in a key position and she's an archer. If the Alliance had their own archers, they wouldn't care when she left and we'd have no new point of conflict. The whole point in that scene was to set up a new misunderstanding and make it believable that the faction leaders would continue to distrust each other.

[Magnagarde]

The Alliance had no idea the Horde was beaten to its knees already. They expected them to jump into the fray any second to wrap it up together.

This expansion is going to be interesting only because of this. Its not like seeing all the previously killed demons being rekilled could ever take this plot's intrigue.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Well, that's kind of the case with the Broken Shore. The Horde retreated when it was prudent and Varian went full retard with "MUH HONOR!" and didn't sound the retreat when he needed too. Then Genn and Jaina blame Varian failing to call a retreat on Sylvanas doing what was needed.

Nah not at all. Both sides retreated when their flank was exposed. Difference is that from Alliance position it looks like Sylvanas abandoned them, while Horde players know she was forced away.

[My User Name]

Let's cut the "misunderstanding" and "shit writing blizz" crap and just accept the assault on the Broken Shore was just a stupid decision. I mean, if Horde stayed, what would Alliance do? Close the portal? They can't do it without the pillars of creation. Kill Gul'dan? Does it worth sacrificing many heroes and faction leaders just to kill one guy? Nope.

[Redfullmoon]

Spoilers etc

I know there's already a thread with the prepatch cinematics and stuff but that's sort of all over the place with hundreds of different topics being addressed.

I wanted to ask isn't it just stupid that "For Azeroth" means nothing now over a stupid misunderstanding? The Alliance perspective obviously doesn't show the Horde warchief being stabbed in the stomach and therefore needing to retreat. It's understandable the Horde would have to retreat.

But the Alliance don't know that at this stage. They think they're just being cowards and running away which is not true. Do the Alliance not think to maybe ask Sylvanas wtf that was all about before going at each others throats again in Legion?

I understand Alliance vs Horde is a mandatory part of gameplay and they have to shoehorn the conflict in somewhere but this is just badly done in my opinion. I don't know,

maybe it's just me who thinks this could've gone a lot better with betrayals and real drama instead of a literal camera angle misunderstanding.

A Simple taste of whats to come with blizz max camera change maby the alliance couldn't zoom out far enough to see the horde was in trouble.

[Zuben]

It's really only the hardliners of the Alliance, such as Genn and Jaina, who overreacted. And I think I saw Sky Admiral Rogers's name in some Stormheim stuff. With the first blows traded by extremists, I think it's a fine way to rekindle faction war. Still foolish, yeah, what with a demon apocalypse going on in the planet, but there you go.

[steelballfc]

Basically every conflict is over misunderstandings, if everyone knew everything we would all be living in peace

not really in the book "cycle of Hatred" it show the H and A leaders - manly Thrall and Jaina - Seeking peace but the normal orc and human seeking revenge for old wounds

[Feanoro]

It would be pretty simple to let both sides know what happened after the fact.

Alliance side, have a quest involving a stranger hanging around Varian's tomb and Anduin asks you to accompany him. Turns out it's Saurfang, who's there to pay his respects to Varian after what happened between them in ICC. He lets Anduin know about what occured on the Broken Shore Horde side and it allows Anduin to gain some weight behind his argument about not fighting the Horde. Whether or not Genn and Jaina listen is up to the writers.

Hordeside, have that human hunter that befriended Vol'Jin show up in the troll village. Sylvanas, Saurfang and the player go there after receiving a message from the troll guards and converse with him. He's shocked that Vol'Jin's dead and about what occurred on the Broken Shore and warns Sylvanas that the Alliance views their abrupt and sudden retreat as a betrayal and the act that led to the King's death. This in turn shocks Sylvie and Saurfang as they hadn't realised that Varian was dead. Saurfang volunteers to go to Stormwind to let them know what really happened and to pay his respect to the late King. Said hunter offers to help him since with the current mood the guards'd probably kill him on sight.

Simple and efficient, with neither side giving up anything.

Sadly, this is FAR better than anything Blizz will give us. We have to listen to tons more preaching from Anduin, the Neville Chamberlain of WoW as shown in MoP. Alliance has plenty of legitimate grievances with the Horde, and this will be used for "See? See? What else have you misunderstood? Garrosh just wanted a tea party!"

Forgive the sarcasm, just annoyed by the constant one-sided whining about working together and generally poor shoehorned faction writing.

[Fenixhart]

Blatantly obvious to Sylvanas that she needed to retreat if the Horde wasn't to lose all of its leaders in a single battle, yes. While she technically had the choice to fight to the last, she felt it was the better option to save herself and others (for one who has typically been all about herself and the Forsaken, its an interesting development), which makes it a more compelling story element when combined with everything else.

That said, it's not information the Alliance has, and the two factions aren't exactly quick sit down and chat with each other at the best of times, so it's not information that's going to be readily available to the Alliance either...

So an understandable sense of additional tension (unless you're a blind fanboy that thinks the "obviously right actions of the Horde should be obvious to anyone, including those who couldn't see the reasons it was the right call, oh and they should obviously go and calmly ask the person they thought just got their king killed just to see if maybe they were wrong and dear god it sounds like bad Horde fan fiction by this point..."), throw in the two whose own experiences have soured them the most on the Horde in general...

And you have a source of conflict between that two that, for fucking once, actually makes bloody sense.

Exaclty.

Instead of the Horde doing the OBVIOUS BAD THING #251 to spark the conflict that gets painted as moral grey when it clearly isn't to anyone with half a brain stem, we get clearly shown that there's not a compelte cycle of information going through and with what the Alliance has to Work with, they are justifiably angry but what the Horde had to do we are also shown they actually had to do it and not have them do it and just give a weak shrug and a weaker reasoning,

We haven't had a conflict of misunderstanding since bloody Taurajo