[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Snegovik]

Oh, one more point.
I have seen it raised on Betaforum and would like to share it with you lot.

Talent Divine Intervention makes you autobubble.
But in BGs, there are often times you are better off dying w/o spending CDs(i.e. when overwhelmed by insurmountable odds).
So how do we sidestep this issue?)

Easy =) you just start casting Flash lights, u get kicked by all the auto kick bots out there and then you die with a smile on ur face. Now when i am doing BGs i actually have a nerve tick stopping myself from casting Flash light or pressing bubble when my HP drops to 2% lol...old habits die hard

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Yeah man its insanely fun. I really wanna go prot too man holy shit. Every spec has good looking artifacts, but holy and prot are both really fun in pvp. I havent tried it as much in pve but I had some fun. Either way, both are really fun and really good in pvp, if I had a choice and wasnt in a guild I would be so confused on which spec to play. I still am, considering just playing prot in RBGs for a while, but shit idk.

I wish Prot did a tiny bit more dmg in PvP instances, so that it would be viable in Arena, cuz as of now that 3 min cd bubble for a party and bops + lowish dmg is not nearly enough to bring Prot to Arena. Personally i will level to 110 then start doing BGs to unlock my pvp talents as Prot and Ret and then i will decide whom i will main if dmg will be better of with Prot PvP talents then ill give it a shot as Prot.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Easy =) you just start casting Flash lights, u get kicked by all the auto kick bots out there and then you die with a smile on ur face. Now when i am doing BGs i actually have a nerve tick stopping myself from casting Flash light or pressing bubble when my HP drops to 2% lol...old habits die hard

Oh thanks didn't figure that out
Neato.

[ruiizu]

Rogue Cheat Death and DK "cheat death" mechanic all suffer from the same problem as Divine Intervention. It's a shared problem and that's just how it is. You can't choose when it goes off.

But this is why I personally thought Divine Intervention should have triggered self Lay on Hands; that way it doesn't use our Bubble. For that matter, it's why I believe LoH should be under 5 min CD. It's just not that good and never has been.

[Snegovik]

Rogue Cheat Death and DK "cheat death" mechanic all suffer from the same problem as Divine Intervention. It's a shared problem and that's just how it is. You can't choose when it goes off.

But this is why I personally thought Divine Intervention should have triggered self Lay on Hands; that way it doesn't use our Bubble. For that matter, it's why I believe LoH should be under 5 min CD. It's just not that good and never has been.

2 min CD for Ret only. If Hpals will get it, they will become too OP.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Rogue Cheat Death and DK "cheat death" mechanic all suffer from the same problem as Divine Intervention. It's a shared problem and that's just how it is. You can't choose when it goes off.

But this is why I personally thought Divine Intervention should have triggered self Lay on Hands; that way it doesn't use our Bubble. For that matter, it's why I believe LoH should be under 5 min CD. It's just not that good and never has been.

Just imagine:
Triple Ret unstoppable rape-train with auto-LoH where resistance is futile and even if you manage to kill one Ret that only makes their boners harder due to Retribution passive.
That would be glorious. And so fething broken.

[Snegovik]

Just imagine:
Triple Ret unstoppable rape-train with auto-LoH where resistance is futile and even if you manage to kill one Ret that only makes their boners harder due to Retribution passive.
That would be glorious. And so fething broken.

don't forget 1 arcane mage can probably kite all those 3 Rets to the death =)

[Deleted]

it's why I believe LoH should be under 5 min CD. It's just not that good and never has been.

lots of debates bout ret rated-viabiliy concluded removal of LoH prohibiton as optimal solution, as Storm already stated in his power fantasy

WoD casul bg ret was close 2 invincibility, even vs. premades*

*talented LoH 5 min, Bubble 2,5 + mobility, but insta full heal is... the wet dream of not only heals...

[Morally Grey Storm]

don't forget 1 arcane mage can probably kite all those 3 Rets to the death =)

he would not be able to, with his face ripped off and worn as a trophy while his body was being ravaged in Light-approved ways.

[Deleted]

he would not be able to, with his face ripped off and worn as a trophy while his body was being ravaged in Light-approved ways.

you might want to seek out professional counseling...

As for giving ret something nice I would love to see something like being able to cast a SoV on a tank or dps going to take a shitload of dmg. Yes I do want my sac back! Obviously talking about pve here

[Ianus]

guys at least we aren't horde pussies...

[Deleted]

you might want to seek out professional counseling...

As for giving ret something nice I would love to see something like being able to cast a SoV on a tank or dps going to take a shitload of dmg. Yes I do want my sac back! Obviously talking about pve here

Y reckon the healing part of vengeance could be a "clever" heal having a preassigned target or healing lowest on hp in party.
All in all sad thing is that most of us are sad at the ways the spells,talents,traits are designed and not only in sheer numbers.
Conclusion is that once again Blizzard done a sorry job with the specc's design as a whole and not just in numbers or details and whatever baseline buffs or tier set bonuses come along are going to help next to nothing ....

[ruiizu]

Just imagine:
Triple Ret unstoppable rape-train with auto-LoH where resistance is futile and even if you manage to kill one Ret that only makes their boners harder due to Retribution passive.
That would be glorious. And so fething broken.

A single complete heal isn't really that big of a deal. Consider how many times a healer fills a life bar in a single match. Also reduced by MS effects. I don't really think LoH being on Divine Intervention would be too ridiculous, but I don't think LoH is that strong anyway. Not when critical heals are doing over half a life bar at times.

[Ashelorh]

If the DPS charts that have been available hold any truth to them, we are currently not raid viable as Ret. That much is obvious. You need a very generous raid to put up with you. Not to mention that the new rotation is way more prone to mistakes than it used to be.

So, yes, i am waiting for Simcraft's official numbers and Blizzards possible adjustments, but if what its seen is the case (aka Ret dead last) then yes, i will be changing main. Not really much of a choice. I do think Blzz won't let that happen as its the only DPS spec we got. Unless they think its ok for us to go heals intead(vanilla style).

To be fair, the only niche that Ret has now is single target. If we are not near the top of the charts on that, i don't see a use for Ret outside the one bubble, but you can get a Holy to do that instead.

Could you link said DPS charts for me?

[Snegovik]

he would not be able to, with his face ripped off and worn as a trophy while his body was being ravaged in Light-approved ways.

See Storm, how do u get away with such blasphemy? When i speak out similar thoughts, every1 tells me to reroll DK and trying to banish me from the order of Light >.<

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Did any1 have a chance to run dungeons / raids yest with new DHs? I did some few bgs/skrimish yesterday and DHs pull similar or higher dps than Rets in PvP with lower ilvl gear and only 2 talent rows unlocked (they do not even have their 20% dmg increase talents yet). Made me sad =(

[Morally Grey Storm]

A single complete heal isn't really that big of a deal. Consider how many times a healer fills a life bar in a single match. Also reduced by MS effects. I don't really think LoH being on Divine Intervention would be too ridiculous, but I don't think LoH is that strong anyway. Not when critical heals are doing over half a life bar at times.

it's the whole kit that becomes scary.
It would be literally 30 seconds of unstoppable, rigtheously cruel facerace where you can't do feth all due to cross-Bless-of-Sanc, auto-trinket via UW, auto-fullheal via DI AND a DS bubble ontop.
No one would last.

See Storm, how do u get away with such blasphemy? When i speak out similar thoughts, every1 tells me to reroll DK and trying to banish me from the order of Light >.<

You dont use words "Holy" and "Light" enough, that's the trick.
Holy Violence, Light-approved sodomization with a broken shovel shaft, throwing the wicked ones in A BOILING CAULDRON OF SWINE EJACULATE for the Light of course.

[Deleted]

Could you link said DPS charts for me?

Check my post on this thread. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mparison/page5

Bottom of the page.

[Deleted]

Flavorful, sure, but that reminds me a lot of another ability we have that gets a lot of hate - Holy Wrath (Equality). Another example would be Vengeance. Imagine trying to sell that to healers. "Hey, these 3 people are going to stand in fire to buff my damage. Don't heal them too much... ever."

At least with Holy Wrath it's self only and we only need to be low for a single GCD and not a sustained period of time.

The thing is that in raids especially at higher difficulties the health won't be at 100% at all times, most of the time you stay close to others which stacks the ability. there are even mechanics where you can't have 100% HP in higher raiding difficulties. In pvp it is also the same, party members will take damage and they may not always remain at 100%. Since the RET Paladin is not mobile, it would punish the attackers for harming those he protects. At least that way our passive would actually do something rather than waiting for someone to die. It is obvious that you always should heal and be healed but this would give the RET at least a niche where we can excel. Btw the idea is based on the seal of blood.

[Alindra]

The thing is that in raids especially at higher difficulties the health won't be at 100% at all times, most of the time you stay close to others which stacks the ability. there are even mechanics where you can't have 100% HP in higher raiding difficulties. In pvp it is also the same, party members will take damage and they may not always remain at 100%. Since the RET Paladin is not mobile, it would punish the attackers for harming those he protects. At least that way our passive would actually do something rather than waiting for someone to die. It is obvious that you always should heal and be healed but this would give the RET at least a niche where we can excel. Btw the idea is based on the seal of blood.

You're correct that people won't stay at full health all the time. What I was getting at is that it will promote abhorrent gameplay. A perfect example of this was Vengeance, which allowed tanks to do more damage based on how much damage they took - and we know they're going to take damage. So what did the player base do? Take extra damage to deal absurd amounts of damage. I'm saying that your reworked Retribution would do the exact same thing, but instead of being the paladin himself putting himself into danger, we could/would try to get other people to take extra damage so we could deal more.

For PvE, I don't think that's a good idea.

You could argue that with the current design we benefit from bad play - and we do - but no one in their right mind would tell someone else to die so we could deal extra damage. The trade-off isn't worth it.

[Snegovik]

The thing is that in raids especially at higher difficulties the health won't be at 100% at all times, most of the time you stay close to others which stacks the ability. there are even mechanics where you can't have 100% HP in higher raiding difficulties. In pvp it is also the same, party members will take damage and they may not always remain at 100%. Since the RET Paladin is not mobile, it would punish the attackers for harming those he protects. At least that way our passive would actually do something rather than waiting for someone to die. It is obvious that you always should heal and be healed but this would give the RET at least a niche where we can excel. Btw the idea is based on the seal of blood.

Agreed we need a mechanics or design that buffs our dmg when party members take dmg or % hp missing or similar to what you mentioned above, or anything other than waiting for some1 to die. Both PvE and PvP that design (when you need some1 to die to buff your dmg) will still amount to over all lose of DMG (if a dps dies in PvE, no way Ret can maintain his own dps + DPS of a dead player) or in PvP when some1 dies asp in Arena (since lets face it, RBGs do not matter since Ret is not viable there) the game already is lost, since people can just cc/kite or snare Ret till the dmg buffs wares off.

Waiting for some1 to die is a bad design its like Blizzard is saying "well your raid grp just whipped but here is a little toy that makes Rets feel better even though it has no real effects on Raiding or PvP"

[Chaosinciter]

Check my post on this thread. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mparison/page5

Bottom of the page.

Yeah that chart is wildly inaccurate as i was doing that much dps sustained at 805 ilvl with a 810 weapon.